Large moorland fires in Greater Manchester

John Watson · Status: Offline

RE: Large moorland fires in Greater Manchester

John Watson · Status: Offline

First moorland fire this year, at Saddleworth Moor (if the Beeb have named the right area this time)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52897449

600 x 600 m when reported, yesterday pm

John Watson · Status: Offline

Something worth considering, especially by anyone who visits these sites regularly.

www.newscientist.com/article/mg23931853-300-smoke-from-moorland-wildfires-may-hold-toxic-blast-from-the-past

I think the point is that fires on top of lead-containing rocks (esp ancient mines & spoils) could release lead & cadmium (both long-term poisons if inhaled) with the ash. It would be useful to have this quantified & the risk assessed, but I don't know if that's going to happen

There may well be no increased risk whatsoever, but it's worth keeping it in mind

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Among the help for the Winter hill crews:

200 free meals from McDonalds.

50 lites of free beer from a Bromley Cross tap room.

And free massages from a Bolton parlour

David Walsh · Status: Offline

Richard Thew wrote:

I must pass on a big well done for the continuing efforts being made from the fire service and everyone else involved in putting out those fires. Perhaps it might be a good idea to pass on all our support from this forum to those working hard out there in tough conditions?

For anyone wishing to pass on more than words of thanks, donations are still being gratefully received at Stalybridge Fire Station.
My wife dropped off 150 pairs of socks yesterday, and enquired as to what else would be useful. A fireman from Bolton Station gave her the following list:

- Isotonic drinks
- Protein bars
- Plasters
- Sun screen
- Insect repellent

These supplie are also being sent to the teams at Winter Hill.

The station address is:

Stalybridge Community Fire Station,
Rassbottom Street,
Stalybridge, SK15 1RF.

Donations via the likes of Amazon should also be addressed as above.

For those unfamiliar with the area, the station is situated right next door to Stalybridge Railway Station, and its famous buffet bar. So it's a win win situation. smile

-- Edited by David Walsh on Thursday 5th of July 2018 03:42:36 PM

Richard Thew · Status: Offline

Rob Creek wrote:

What I find hard to swallow is the ridiculous news that some scumbags were actually starting more fires, they were seen by the water relief helicopters and one actually took the decision to drop water on the low-lifes and put the fires out.!

That's justice! Serves them right. I find it difficult to understand too what pleasure those "low-lifes" would feel by putting lives and property at risk like that!! I'm sure they wouldn't like it if it was their lives involved.

But again; I must pass on a big well done for the continuing efforts being made from the fire service and everyone else involved in putting out those fires. Perhaps it might be a good idea to pass on all our support from this forum to those working hard out there in tough conditions?

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

RE: Massive moorland fire at Carrbrook

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

I watched Winter Hill tonight from a different view point; scoping from the footpath at Rumworth Lodge.

On the south side of the hill, I could see a valley, more or less burnt out, it was blackened and smouldering, and full of low level smoke. I think this valley was below Burnt Edge and down to Walker Fold.

At it's lower end, I saw a firefighter, with a red top, hosing a plantation of newly planted saplings. Over this valley, the white UU helicopter made continuous passes, dropping water from the bag it carried.

This helicopter appeared to refill water from high up the moor, probably the lagoon with no name, shown on the map above Coal Pit lane.

A second helicopter, yellow underside, joined in. I think it had previously flown off south possibly to refuel.

There is still a massive effort being put in on these moors!

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Just scoped Winter Hill from my driveway.

I see the TV mast and the masts near the quarries in sharp relief against a blue sky.

No smoke plumes currently seen.

Neither is the Horrocks Moor plume, seen previously

from here over trees, visible.

There has been a massive shift put in today by firemen and support people.

The man arrested last week has been released(under investigation).

Rob Creek · Status: Offline

It really is devastating the whole situation regarding the fires. Full respect goes to the Fire Service and all the other volunteers who have worked tirelessly to get them under control. I heard there various mountain rescue teams and wildlife groups from different counties helping. A few of my good mates are fire fighters so I know what they are all up against.

What I find hard to swallow is the ridiculous news that some scumbags were actually starting more fires, they were seen by the water relief helicopters and one actually took the decision to drop water on the low-lifes and put the fires out. What goes through their minds to want to cause such devastation? Also the idiots sat on deck chairs at the side of the road watching the devastation unfold.

One last thing...an interesting programme on BBC Radio 2 Jeremy Vine today about the whole 'fires' situation and an important angle covered regarding the importance of Winter Hill !!!

-- Edited by Rob Creek on Monday 2nd of July 2018 09:16:36 PM

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

This morning the views from my house looking over Winter Hill look much better.

No smoke plumes visible at present. The main concern of the fire service is the masts.

There are TV, emergency radio and mobile phone masts up there. And presumably lots of cable.

I can see most of the tv mast against a blue sky, although there is a haze at lower level over the moor.

Full fire fighting resumed at 4.30this am. Water has also been picked up from Belmont Res.

Later 9.30am smoke plume showing from eastern side; Horrocks Moor/Whimberry Hill area.

I can only see top of the mast now!

But still better than last evening.

-- Edited by Keith Mills on Sunday 1st of July 2018 10:46:43 AM

Simon Warford · Status: Offline

Devastating to see the extent of the Winter Hill fires, which have now merged to form one massive fire, truly awful to see on one of superb local patches. cry

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Today, the fires have reignited on Winter Hill and merged with the Horrocks Moor fire.

Major incident now declared.

Military assistance has been requested.

-- Edited by Keith Mills on Saturday 30th of June 2018 08:09:26 PM

Mark Jarrett · Status: Offline

Was saddened to see the fire and smoke at WinterHill/Horwich Moors on Thursday evening whilst driving up the M6 en route to the DW. Doesnt surprise me in the slightest that a 22 year old from Bolton was being held.

Darwen Moors are usually set ablaze each year by the low life scumbags from the town. There was a fire some 25 or so years ago that was so bad that it continued to burn under the surface for several months. A great deal of work was done to restore the heather and it worked to a large degree although it took time. This was to the plateau area beside Darwen Tower. The scumbags, however, always target the same area, that to the northern slope below the tower. Its steep and they always start in the lower corner. Even their pea brains have worked out that the fire spreads upwards very quickly. This whole section of the moors has been done so many times that it is devoid of heather and is now just grass. Devastating and so unnecessary.

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Yes. Smoke plume currently as big as ever.

Amazing drone picture on Facebook showing the scale of the second fire near mast.

Rivington Terraced Gardens FB, say old fires reigniting and ask people to stay off the Moors.

-- Edited by Keith Mills on Saturday 30th of June 2018 02:12:29 PM

Simon Johnson · Status: Offline

Helicopters seen dropping water on winter hill this morning and also moors to the east the area effected looks huge!

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Smithills Moor,Bolton. Firemen still arriving after 8pm this evening. Arriving by bus/van at Scout Road just down from the firing range quarry. Then they took track up onto Smithills moor. Fire well up the moor above Scout Road. My OS map says this is Whimberry Hill area. Smoke plume going west over Holden Farm and away towards Horwich/Rivington. Regular Helicopter drops.

-- Edited by Keith Mills on Friday 29th of June 2018 09:43:36 PM

Craig Higson · Status: Offline

This link provides some useful information o. The Saddleworth fire ww2.rspb.org.uk/community/ourwork/b/martinharper/archive/2018/06/29/wildfire-at-dove-stone.aspx

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

That will be the one Ive been seeing for 2 hours.

Same vector but further back than I thought!

Bolton News give it as on Horrocks Moor.

Helicopter with carry bag seen around

-- Edited by Keith Mills on Friday 29th of June 2018 05:14:20 PM

Simon Johnson · Status: Offline

Its being reported that a third moorland fire has broken out along Scout Road.

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Bolton/ Winter Hill.

Another large smoke plume currently drifting west towards Horwich. Seen from back garden the source appears to be directly across the Middlebrook valley.

My guess for the source, would be Old Kiln Lane or not far from Doffcocker Lodge.

News today on the Winter Hill fire: 12 fire engines there this am including Cumbria fire and rescue~ specialist wildlife units deployed~ and of course as John's previous post man arrested in connection~ source of fire; not too far from the masts.

-- Edited by Keith Mills on Friday 29th of June 2018 04:36:57 PM

John Watson · Status: Offline

re the cause of the Winter Hill fire: "A 22-year-old man from Bolton is being held" according to the Beeb

Assuming he's convicted, my thoughts on the penalty should not be written down furious

-- Edited by John Watson on Friday 29th of June 2018 03:59:36 PM

Steve Suttill · Status: Offline

More ill-informed comments in the media:

A Prof from Liverpool University says that "the fire would not have spread as easily - and would have been less likely to have penetrated the peat beneath - if the dry scrub and heather had been managed by occasional burning". Perhaps he should have looked at some aerial photos, or asked a local. Controlled burning is carried out on a regular basis.

Thankfully there were some words of sense from Pat Thompson, RSPB's senior uplands policy officer: "The unprecedented dry spell means there was potential for a major fire, no matter how that land is managed". Would expect Pat to talk sense, as the son of the great Desmond Nethersole-Thompson.

John Watson · Status: Offline

The BBC (and other media) now say near Saddleworth Moor. I don't think it really matters to the broader audience precisely where it is, but it helps to raise concern if they've heard of the place previously

Just about every story I've read where I know what's actually happened, the media invariably get 20% wrong. Lazy journalism.

David Walsh · Status: Offline

Steve Suttill wrote.....

As someone who can see the flames and smoke while typing this and, like David, knows this area extremely well, I must say that I too am getting rather tired of reading endless lazy journalism. The constant references to Saddleworth Moor just tell me right away that the writer has got the most basic fact wrong and, therefore, why should I believe anything else they write?

As anyone who knows me will be aware, I am most definitely anti grouse shooting, but the moors in question are not that intensively managed. The grouse population is not as artificially high as it is on some estates and, management of the land seems to have improved considerably in recent years.

Many people seem to be looking for a scapegoat but, in my opinion, there probably isn't anyone to blame. I was on the actual Saddleworth Moor last week doing a BBS and it was drier than I've ever seen it, despite all the rewetting work done by RSPB, National Trust and United Utilities.

Please don't believe everything you read in the papers!

Thanks Steve,

A sensible voice of reason, from someone with an intimate knowledge of the area in question, that is the Stalybridge Moors (not the Dark Peak, not Saddleworth. I only comment upon areas of which I am reasonably certain of the facts). We know the species that have benefited locally. Weirdly, quite a few appear in the list in the previous post that apparently definitely have NOT?

As you say, best not believe all you read. wink

-- Edited by David Walsh on Friday 29th of June 2018 12:10:12 AM

Paul Risley · Status: Offline

David wrote,

As for more species being lost to Grouse moor management than benefit, I can think of six species that have benefitted over the past five years in the area of the fire, including one of global concern, the Curlew. Perhaps Paul has more information from this area than me, but I have no evidence of any species being lost as a direct result of the estate management. If you do have evidence of illegal persecution Paul, then I suggest you contact the police.

Saddleworth Moor is part of the Dark Peak, the Dark Peak is notoriously one of the worst areas in the country for Raptor persecution. The police are well aware of the situation David, the RSPB published a report peak malpractice back in 2006 and were heavily critisised (sic) by the shooting community for allegedly exaggerating the situation, 12 years later after numerous failed initiatives and meetings things still have not changed, dont take my word for it. check these links

http://ww2.rspb.org.uk/community/ourwork/b/investigations/archive/2018/04/28/raptor-persecution-in-the-peak-district-national-park.aspx

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2018/04/29/new-paper-links-raptor-persecution-to-driven-grouse-moors-in-peak-district-national-park/

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2018/01/23/rspb-terminates-involvement-with-failed-peak-district-bird-of-prey-initiative/

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2018/01/25/gamekeepers-attempts-to-suppress-peak-district-bird-of-prey-initiative-report/

Manchester birding forum. General birding. suspected shot goshawk. (apologies for not providing a direct link)

You could argue that these two estates you mention are not part of the dark peak however just north of them lie the Yorkshire Dales the North Yorkshire Moors and the Trough of Bowland all hotspots for raptor persecution.

Re george Monbiot and paper talk, the latest trend for intensive grouse shooting is to drain the moors which is why Monbiot calls them tinderboxes, drier moors produce more grouse however wetter moors produce more Dunlin Redshank and Curlew as recently proved by the RSPB on Springwatch due to work and studies carried out at Dovestones and achieved without any predator control. Many complaints have been received by Natural England referring to the drainage of moorland and the resulting damage to blanket bog, the moors over the town Hebden bridge have a complaint referred to the EU by the RSPB, Natural England dropped the original charges brought against the estate and decided to give the moorland owners £250k for the next 10 years, for more information on this just google wuthering heights and Mark Avery

David you can think of six species that have benefitted, I can think of quite a few that certainly have not, Fox, Badger, Stoat, Weasel, Goshawk, Peregrine, Merlin. Kestrel. Tawny Owl. Short Eared Owl. Raven I could go on however as I write this one of my patches is ablaze, an area where there is occasional Grouse shooting and some Pheasant shooting, mysteriously even here the local Peregrines eggs or young disappear.

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Can presently see the Winter Hill smoke plume from my house, Apparently the fire is over the hill towards Belmont, but the plume is drifting SW over Horwich area.

Police helicopter asking people to stay away, as many are making for it.

p.s. Many dramatic pictures of this on Facebook (Rivington Terraced Garden thread), including views of the plume from Southport and Tarleton Moss!

-- Edited by Keith Mills on Thursday 28th of June 2018 09:35:10 PM

Steve Suttill · Status: Offline

David Walsh wrote:

I remember George Monbiot from his days as an investigative environmental journalist in the 1980s, and this latest GUArdian (sic) article is disappointing in the extreme. It smacks of a pre-prepared piece of copy, cached for just such an event as we have experienced locally, over past five days. He hasn't even bothered to research the area himself, continuing with the "Saddleworth Moor" theme. The vast majority of the damage has been suffered by Stalybridge and Mossley. The land is managed by Stalybridge and Enville Estates. Although he is describing the wrong area, I can find no mention of numbers of Raptors disappearing in either area, whether it be Saddleworth or Stalybridge?

As for more species being lost to Grouse moor management than benefit, I can think of six species that have benefitted over the past five years in the area of the fire, including one of global concern, the Curlew. Perhaps Paul has more information from this area than me, but I have no evidence of any species being lost as a direct result of the estate management. If you do have evidence of illegal persecution Paul, then I suggest you contact the police.

I am no fan of Grouse shooting, but I am a fan of balance and perspective, and the knee jerk drum beating by the likes of George Monbiot does become tiresome. My initial post was intended to inform of the scale and extent of the damage, and to convey how sad it is, for all concerned.

That still stands.

As someone who can see the flames and smoke while typing this and, like David, knows this area extremely well, I must say that I too am getting rather tired of reading endless lazy journalism. The constant references to Saddleworth Moor just tell me right away that the writer has got the most basic fact wrong and, therefore, why should I believe anything else they write?

As anyone who knows me will be aware, I am most definitely anti grouse shooting, but the moors in question are not that intensively managed. The grouse population is not as artificially high as it is on some estates and, management of the land seems to have improved considerably in recent years.

Many people seem to be looking for a scapegoat but, in my opinion, there probably isn't anyone to blame. I was on the actual Saddleworth Moor last week doing a BBS and it was drier than I've ever seen it, despite all the rewetting work done by RSPB, National Trust and United Utilities.

Please don't believe everything you read in the papers!

John Watson · Status: Offline

Another big fire, this time on Winter Hill. Very distant from here, but looks started from near the road at the top, drifting west. The phrase "copy cat" springs to mind, though could equally be some idiot with a cigarette end, or an idiot leaving broken glass around. disbelief

At least it's more accessible to the fire services

Rain, please

David Walsh · Status: Offline

Paul Risley wrote:

David Walsh wrote:
"A vast amount of work and money has been spent for what is yes, a grouse moor (boo, hiss), but there is no doubt that the extensive moorland management, and great amount of time and effort put in by the estate gamekeeper has benefited a great variety of species other than Red Grouse. I am sure that the hordes that visited Brushes Dam last year to twitch the Nightjar will have raised a glass to the estate and the gamekeeper, in thanks for helping to create a habitat safe and suitable enough for an attempt at breeding. What I am not sure about is whether this investment will be repeated, and how long it will be before the habitat and its inhabitants are restored. "

Good article in the gaurdian today by George Monbiot, totally agree with what he writes, how many Raptors disappear in this area every year, there are more species lost due to this kind of land management than benefit
https://t.co/dvgLcbEbc3

I remember George Monbiot from his days as an investigative environmental journalist in the 1980s, and this latest GUArdian (sic) article is disappointing in the extreme. It smacks of a pre-prepared piece of copy, cached for just such an event as we have experienced locally, over past five days. He hasn't even bothered to research the area himself, continuing with the "Saddleworth Moor" theme. The vast majority of the damage has been suffered by Stalybridge and Mossley. The land is managed by Stalybridge and Enville Estates. Although he is describing the wrong area, I can find no mention of numbers of Raptors disappearing in either area, whether it be Saddleworth or Stalybridge?

As for more species being lost to Grouse moor management than benefit, I can think of six species that have benefitted over the past five years in the area of the fire, including one of global concern, the Curlew. Perhaps Paul has more information from this area than me, but I have no evidence of any species being lost as a direct result of the estate management. If you do have evidence of illegal persecution Paul, then I suggest you contact the police.

I am no fan of Grouse shooting, but I am a fan of balance and perspective, and the knee jerk drum beating by the likes of George Monbiot does become tiresome. My initial post was intended to inform of the scale and extent of the damage, and to convey how sad it is, for all concerned.

That still stands.

Paul Risley · Status: Offline

David Walsh wrote:
"A vast amount of work and money has been spent for what is yes, a grouse moor (boo, hiss), but there is no doubt that the extensive moorland management, and great amount of time and effort put in by the estate gamekeeper has benefited a great variety of species other than Red Grouse. I am sure that the hordes that visited Brushes Dam last year to twitch the Nightjar will have raised a glass to the estate and the gamekeeper, in thanks for helping to create a habitat safe and suitable enough for an attempt at breeding. What I am not sure about is whether this investment will be repeated, and how long it will be before the habitat and its inhabitants are restored. "

Good article in the gaurdian today by George Monbiot, totally agree with what he writes, how many Raptors disappear in this area every year, there are more species lost due to this kind of land management than benefit
https://t.co/dvgLcbEbc3

Richard Thew · Status: Offline

Im sure i speak for everyone when I say how Very upsetting and very distressing to say the least when reading about the devastation caused by this fire and with the importance of the area too!

It's encouraging though to see the fire service doing all they can in those very challenging conditions and deserve commendation (asto everyone else working hard out there). But let's hope it can be brought under control quickly.

I'm sure the natural environment will bounce back in time but could take several years but it's worth remembering that it's not the first time and won't be the last and I've every confidence an investigation will ensue after asto the fires origins.

Ta!

-- Edited by Richard Thew on Wednesday 27th of June 2018 02:17:13 PM

David Walsh · Status: Offline

Charles Coutts wrote:

Devestating for wildlife,Hope its not mindless idiots that started it

I didn't have the will to comment upon this (the fire, not Charles' comment), but I do feel that the cause pales into insignificance. What is significant is that an area of upland moorland, stretching from the Derbyshire border, Stalybridge, Mossley, towards Dovestone and Chew (weirdly dubbed "the Saddleworth moors" by many news agencies), has been reduced to a blackened, smouldering mess. Hundreds of breeding birds, including many too sensitive to be named on a public forum, have had their breeding attempts and habitat wiped out.

A vast amount of work and money has been spent for what is yes, a grouse moor (boo, hiss), but there is no doubt that the extensive moorland management, and great amount of time and effort put in by the estate gamekeeper has benefited a great variety of species other than Red Grouse. I am sure that the hordes that visited Brushes Dam last year to twitch the Nightjar will have raised a glass to the estate and the gamekeeper, in thanks for helping to create a habitat safe and suitable enough for an attempt at breeding. What I am not sure about is whether this investment will be repeated, and how long it will be before the habitat and its inhabitants are restored.

It could be argued that this is part of a natural cycle, of clear and replenish. As I stood this evening, on Higher Swineshaw dam, lined with nine fire engines, an exhausted looking gamekeeper, and dozens of firemen, and other volunteers, the plaintive peeping of a Common Sandpiper almost drowned out by the machinery, it didn't feel it.

It felt incredibly sad.

-- Edited by David Walsh on Wednesday 27th of June 2018 07:42:16 AM

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Big fire last night on the west side of Winter Hill.

smoke covered the whole

hill and drifted across towards Bolton.

Still hazy now.

-- Edited by Keith Mills on Wednesday 27th of June 2018 04:53:17 AM

Charles Coutts · Status: Offline

Large moorland fires in Greater Manchester