Hi Paul, I knew exactly what you meant regarding Buzzards affecting local numbers, I was referring to an overall situation. With a seemingly healthy population as the RSPB or other species monitoring groups not raising any issues I know of, the bird isn't on the Species of Concern list as far as I know, and some posts below saying they have done well in their area whereas other posts seem to indicate a decline in their area....it still begs the question, the one I originally asked, have the Green Woodpeckers simply relocated to other areas giving an illusion of a decline?
Hi David it is satisfying to know that some of those species are still there and as regards Green Woodpeckers you say a few individuals and that's how I see it, the odd individual rather than regular sightings. There were fires up there way back before 2006, and when we used to go walking up there they were a regular sight, along with the Cuckoos, Snipe etc. now all I get is the odd overhead Curlew. We would inadvertently flush Snipe and Woodcock from a few feet which scared the bloody life out of us, although dad did say 'just wait until you get a Jack Snipe and then you'll know about it'. I'm glad you picked up on the molehills as they are an important habitat for the ants (as was my compost heap this year) and ultimately the woodpeckers, but is it me or has anyone witnessed a reduction in molehills of late? I'm no expert but could this indicate a lack of readily available surface ants for the birds, hence they move on to where they can find them? Just a thought. Cheers Rob
Some interesting points and observations, Tim I saw the post regarding the one seen on Milton Grove, I even googled it to see where it was, was hoping, but still not seen or heard any down the Lane since. Dave there are still decent Rabbit numbers in one of the areas. Rob, John, re the Buzzards I was referring to predation on a local level, we had two pairs of woodpeckers after the young disperse, any loss to any new predator has an impact at local level. One of the pairs of Woodpeckers could virtually be guaranteed somewhere on Aspull Sough. This borders Haigh CP Lower Plantations, One of the Buzzards could also virtually be guaranteed hunting along this side of the woods, as I wrote these were my first impressions but now on hearing that Green Woodpeckers are declining in other areas Im open minded on the causes now. One of the puzzling aspects of the Haigh birds is that as far as I know they never tried to breed in the upper Plantations despite what looks like suitable habitat.
Funnily enough Paul, the last Green Woodpecker I saw was a couple of years ago on Pendlebury Lane, my brother saw one a few months ago on Milton Grove near Marylebone Park (off Wigan Lane). I though this was a really unusual place to see one!
Could the increased (or in many of our areas an entirely new) buzzard population affect local rabbit populations to an extent that would in turn affect ant populations?
@ John Williams regarding the Cheshire/Moore situation. I did really well for Green Woodpeckers during my spate of visits over last Autumn/Winter - often had at least one - the Eastern Reedbed, as you say, is the stronghold, but also heard them in the woods heading towards the feeding station. As I return to Moore regularly over this Autumn and Winter I hope to have seen the numbers remain the same - they're one of my favourite birds.
Dunham Massey is the place which introduced this species to me. Obviously we're talking a vast area but still, with such a vocal/strident call it is possible to pick the bird up easily - I did so in the summer with at least two birds, however though I got close to a sighting I didn't manage to physically see one.
On another encouraging note I have also seen one reported heard here on the forum (at Failsworth/Daisy Nook) and I have heard myself on at least one occasion a Green Woodpecker in Boggart Hole Clough, Blackley - but that was some time ago. Both neither overtly corresponding to the habitat, but still giving food for thought regards the movements of the species.
Had one on the Greenish Warbler twitch at Turton, too in the summer - smashing birds.
Green Woodpeckers used to be a fairly common sighting for me at 2 sites in Tameside back in the late 70's to early 80's but all of a sudden seemed to vanish from both. Firstly near my hometown of Denton is Reddish Vale, which was perfect habitat comprising of sparse patches of old woodland, open grassland and well grazed (Bovine) fields, and the old water treatment tanks. The short grass was down to the 2 cattle herds that we knew as the Vale Herd and the Jet Amber Herd, this attracted ground insects especially to the cowpats, there were also alot of ant hills and mole hills which were eventually used by ants, ultimately drawing in the Woodpeckers. We used to see them regularly around the Vale when we went walking as a family.
Secondly Brushes at Stalybridge had Green Woodpeckers, how many pairs I'm unsure but we heard and saw them regularly. We used to walk up the heather laden paths and there were alot of ants up there which was obviously a main factor. Unfortunately there was a spate of arson attacks around that time and alot of the ground nesting birds were affected and I'm assuming alot of the habitat for ground insects and the insects themselves were wiped out as an immediate consequence ie.ants.
These 2 sites held a multitude of birds...Reddish Vale had Meadow and Tree Pipit, Skylark, Yellowhammer, Snipe, Cuckoos used the large range of host species nests and a decent size Sand Martin colony were on the Tame banks. Brushes boasted Curlew, Golden Plover, Cuckoo, Merlin, and Woodcock amongst others. Some of these species much like the Green Woodpecker are either not as common or are rarely seen at these sites now so are we saying that all these other species declined or have they just moved on to pastures new and maybe increased the populations of those species in that area? I haven't had a single Green Woodpecker in Greater Manchester for years, but in the last few months alone I've seen 2 in Cornwall (including 1 at Marazion), 2 flew over the M6 near Lancaster en route to Leighton Moss, and 1 at Dovedale not far from Coombes Valley after a well worth it recommendation from Chris Harper.
As far as the questions posed in the last couple of posts...a quick check reveals the RSPB estimate just over 24,000 UK breeding pairs, and the global population estimated to be between 1.8 and 5.2 million individuals although how accurate that is comes into question when one figure is nearly 3x as much as the other. ...and as far as Buzzards possibly being responsible for the decline, I can't see it myself, and although they do take ground feeding birds such as the odd Wood Pigeon or maybe an unsuspecting Green Woodpecker, I always understood them to be predominantly Rabbit and Earthworm lovers, and possibly favour reptiles and amphibians over alot of other prey I think I'm right in saying, so I can't see them having an effect on Green Woodpecker numbers as prey or as food competitors and thereby driving them out. Cheers Rob
The situation appears to similar in Cheshire, Green Woodpeckers were seen, certainly heard on every walk around the Neumanns Flash area until recently, but they seem much scarcer now. I hav'nt been to Moore lately, but Green Woodpeckers were virtually guaranteed around Pumphouse Pool and the Eastern Reedbed, I wonder if the regulars have noticed a drop in sightings there?. I would'nt blame the upturn in Buzzard numbers for the woodpeckers decline though, at Moore the dead trees used regularly by Green Woodpeckers are very close to a Buzzard roost. The two species seem to co-exist happily side by side at Moore, and have done for years, Buzzards seem far more interested in plump Woodpigeons that are often so stuffed they can barely fly. Or Mallards and Moorhens that stray too far from cover, not forgetting dozy Rabbits. A few decades ago you had to venture down to Mid-Cheshire to find Green Woodpeckers, but since then they seem to have spread North to the Mersey and beyond. As the text books say Green Woodpeckers prefer sandy areas, with plenty of ants, hence no doubt to their affinity to the heath areas at Moore. Perhaps there as been a subtle change in these suitable areas, a drop in ant numbers, or Green Woodpecker habitat is getting too clogged and overgrown. Or maybe they are just experiencing a natural downturn at moment?. On chatting to birders and general nature lovers around Neumanns, quite a few people have said they miss the charismatic Green Woodpecker, a real icon of the countryside. I'm sure their numbers will bounce back, I'll check some of their local hotspots in the spring, Dunham, Vale Royal and Moore and see how many vocal males I can find. As the BTO or RSPB made any comments on a decline in Green Woodpecker numbers?.
I am pleased to able to confirm that Green Woodpeckers are still to be found at Brushes in Stalybridge. I have seen individual birds on several occasions over the past 12 months, both around the rifle ranges themselves, but more often around Flaxfield Farm (shorter grass and molehills). I haven't been able to confirm any breeding, but the species is still in the area. Curlew, woodcock, and snipe are also present, and the heather has grown back following the fires of 2006, as well as birch and fresh gorse, which has attracted willow warblers and whitethtroat higher up the moor than previously.
We have also had breeding linnet and 3 broods from one pair of stonechat in the gorse this year. Birdwatching in this area can be hard, but the results when they appear are all the more satisfying as a consequence.
David Walsh
-- Edited by David Walsh on Friday 20th of September 2013 01:15:11 AM
Just a couple of points that might be of interest regarding the birds at Haigh, and for anyone coming into contact with them as breeding birds in the future. In 2008 I found a freshly excavated nesthole in an Oak tree overlooking a valley, the chippings on the floor beneath were the give away signs. I tapped on the tree with a coin and sure enough the female stuck her head out of the hole then bobbed straight back in, Id seen this trick used years ago by the old wildlife presenter Jack Hargreaves. The nest was on a path I walked fairly regularly, most times afterwards when I went past Id tap on the tree but never again did the female stick her head out and never did I see the birds in the area despite watching for a good thirty minutes at times, most evenings Id leave the area feeling pretty low thinking that Id caused them to desert. About a month later I heard young in the area even before Id reached it, there was one youngster already at the top of a nearby tree and others still peering from the nesthole, to say the birds were elusive is a complete understatement and you could probably imagine my relief. The birds used the same nesthole in 2009 again successfully and a second pair also had young down on Pendlebury Lane, 2010 they didnt use the nest but had moved towards the canal, I couldnt locate a nest and didnt hear any young and saw nothing of the Pendlebury Lane birds either that year. there were still a few sightings in 2011 but the writing was on the wall. I thought this was just a localised loss so it is interesting to read others points of view and recordings Being at low densities any few losses though means they are susceptible. We had a couple of bad winters and Buzzards have also moved into the area, over the years I have only twice found their remains at Sparrowhawk plucking posts but the buzzards are a different proposition, this was my view on the matter but now I'm not as sure. Lastly, slight bit of good news, heard young in the Horwich moors area (burnt edge) this year.
I haven't seen or heard a Green Woodpecker at Ludworth Moor since October 2012 - so a complete absence this breeding season. Prior to this they were fairly regular through the summer. Has anyone else recorded one up there this year?
Since my interest in Manchester Birding was reignited towards the end of 2008, Green Woodpecker is one of only a few relatively common species which I saw historically in GM but have not seen within the last 5 years in the county. I have heard it at Dunham Massey which seems to be an excellent and favoured site, consisting of the type of mixed "open" (as opposed to dense) woodland which they seem to like. Some or all of us have also heard it during our May Mayhem attempts at Etherow as well.
During my three/four visits to Haigh Country Park within the last couple of years, I do admit to a degree of surprise not to have heard or seen it there, considering the availability of a large area of mature deciduous trees in combination with acres of short turf comprising the road verges and of course the golf course, (though pesticides, if in general use, could possibly play a deterrent role here as part of the fairway/green management; - I'm just speculating on this as a possibility, and this latter supposition may be unfair/unfounded and wide of the mark, in which case I apologise in advance for the suggestion).
I should speculate that being at relatively low density, pairs are more able to alternate between two or three different territories from one year to the next, the choice perhaps driven/determined according to spring weather conditions (particularly governed by those temperature levels best conducive to optimise ant activity); and that in one sense they could therefore be described as "seasonally" nomadic?
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Tim - firstly, a warm welcome to the forum. Secondly, whilst not being in a position to comment on the Haigh CP Green Woodpeckers, Paul Risley's post dated 10/2/13 and Tom Morton's on 6/2/13 on the Haigh CP thread (use the search facility to locate this thread) are also on this subject.
I personally have often wondered if we as birders tend to over-estimate the numbers of this species in our county, primarily due to it being readily detectable through its distinctive yaffling calls and we assume greater numbers are present than really do exist? Incidentally, our last published local breeding birds atlas from 1979 - 1984 (Breeding Birds in Greater Manchester) suggested there may only be about 10 pairs in the whole of our recording area. The 2010 GM county bird report reported birds on 16 territories and with breeding confirmed at 8 of these - Haigh CP being one of them. Figures probably suggesting that this still remains an uncommon resident breeding bird in our recording area?
It's interesting to read a bit about this species and their reported site-faithfulness but keeping in the back of our minds that they are thought to have large territories and therefore does it seem possible that a pair or pairs that bred at Haigh CP in recent years may still be breeding within their range but somewhere else close by? Whilst I could find information on their loyalty to their home range I couldn't find anything definitive on the repeat use of the same nest hole, other than that it "may be re-used". On a personal note, mulling over the idea of site fidelity, it was an absolute thrill to find a pair of Green Woodpeckers breeding not too far from my Chadderton home in the summer of 2012 and despite fledging young it was very disappointing to note that they did not return to this particular nest in 2013 - instead the nest hole being taken over by those ultimate nest hole "squatters" - a pair of Nuthatches! I have in several years seen adults with juveniles at Piethorne but the species seems to have been largely absent there on my few visits this summer, so maybe they have moved to a better part of Rochdale MBC! Pairs have been reported intermittently over the years at both of these sites and I have often wondered if there is a surplus of suitable nesting areas and not really enough pairs in GM to fill them and hence they are not seen at these "semi-regular" sites every year? Hope that make sense!
Dave - your question about the fluctuations in ant populations was an interesting one. The first national breeding birds atlas had an interesting paragraph for this species which suggested two possible factors which may be a factor in checking the numbers of Green Woodpeckers. These were - "the decline in sheep husbandry and the reduction of Rabbits through myxomatosis. Both these mammals produce a closely grazed turf which, because of its higher exposure to the sun, supports far bigger and more varied ant populations than long-grass swards." Not suggesting either of these are factors in the loss of local birds but you never know. Additionally, does it not seem likely that the recent run of harsh winters will not made life easy for ground feeders such as the Green Woodpecker? Would the cold weather have affected ant activity and populations too? Just a thought, as my knowledge of ant life is even tinier than an ant itself!!
I'm sure you'll all be delighted to know that the Green Woodpecker is the BTO Bird of the Month! Not quite on a par with Playboy's Playmate of the Month but still something the whole family can have a look at without anyone blushing! Seriously though, there's lots of really fascinating info on this link - http://www.bto.org/about-birds/bird-of-month/green-woodpecker - on losses and gains from our latest, most recent national breeding birds atlas project, together with many additional interesting links on this particular page to masses of other information, including distribution maps from earlier atlases etc... for those that have the time to peruse it all! It's interesting to note that even the BTO doesn't have the answers of some of the losses of this species in certain parts of the UK.
The apparent recent absence at Haigh has been commented on by other observers. At the Wigan Flashes Green Woodpecker became regular from the mid-90's but seem to have disappeared from the site in the past few years. Not sure why this should be the case. Do ant populations have fluctuations that could affect Green Woodpeckers?
From the mid-90's up to about three years ago, I frequently saw and heard Green Woodpeckers around the borders of Haigh Country Park in Wigan. However, I have seen only two in the last 3 or 4 years. Has anyone else noticed an apparent decline? Prior to the mid-90's, I never saw any! They seem to have had a golden period of about 15 years and then disappeared again. TIM MASON.
- a pair of Nuthatches! I have in several years seen adults with juveniles at Piethorne but the species seems to have been largely absent there on my few visits this summer, so maybe they have moved to a better part of Rochdale MBC! Pairs have been reported intermittently over the years at both of these sites and I have often wondered if there is a surplus of suitable nesting areas and not really enough pairs in GM to fill them and hence they are not seen at these "semi-regular" sites every year? Hope that make sense!
