Henry Cook wrote:

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Nick Isherwood wrote:

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With all this talk of twitching and birds in the hand, etc. How many birders out there keep a 'self found' list?

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I'll own up to keeping one. I find it a great motivating force for getting out into the field as much as is possible. The buzz from a self-found rarity is like nothing else in birding!

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I fully agree with you there Henry.

Nick Isherwood wrote:

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With all this talk of twitching and birds in the hand, etc. How many birders out there keep a 'self found' list?

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I'll own up to keeping one. I find it a great motivating force for getting out into the field as much as is possible. The buzz from a self-found rarity is like nothing else in birding!

Nick Isherwood wrote:

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With all this talk of twitching and birds in the hand, etc. How many birders out there keep a 'self found' list?

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I think most of us do Nick and some of us twitch as well, yourself included!

-- Edited by Phil Owen on Saturday 22nd of September 2012 09:51:47 PM

Mike Passant wrote:

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Putting a different slant on this theme:- how good a view does one insist upon before feeling happy to "tick" a life bird?

Do you have a particular definition; (like having to see a bird's eye or face well in the case of a passerine, or having to see the whole bird for instance in some cases. Is an Owl's face enough to count if it is peering from a nest hole?)

In my case, I have a "better views required" category, and don't count a new species unless I get that "gotcha" buzz.

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I agree Mike but also in the same way I would always want a good view of a bird before putting it on my Life List, the same principle would apply to possible "ship assisted" or "trapped and ringed birds".

I wasn't 100% about this, hence the original and valid question as to whether they should or not be countable on a list.

Hi all

All in all,I think that the most important thing is to enjoy the hobby in the manner that suits you best as an individual.
'Listing' is a very personal thing,and it seems to me that all Birders have different ways of compiling their lists.......
I personally keep several different lists,but I don't think that the way that I list is particularly good,because I record all birds that I see or hear from the area that I'm listing,so for example,if I'm at Connah's Quay Nature Reserve and record 60 species for the day,the truth is that not all of those birds are strictly birds from the reserve itself,because many of these birds are viewable from the very elevated West Hide at Connah's Quay,and are in fact,out on Flint and Oakenholt Marsh(RSPB Reserve)and are also visible from across the water on Burton Marsh(RSPB Reserve)and thus are not strictly birds recorded within the confines of Connah's Quay Nature Reserve itself...........but where do you draw the line!!!.........and I think that it is instances like this where Birders make their own individual choice.
As far as listing birds that are caught in mist nets or trapped is concerned,I personally have never done it,but have unfortuneately missed out on some good birds because of that,but that is my own individual choice,and again I don't necessarily think that I'm right.

Cheers Denzil

I see what you mean.

With rarities I use photographic evidence to convince even myself.

I have a few probables this year, not even rarities just unusual for West Pennine Moors, but have not counted them without a photo to confirm.

Some interesting comments so far.

I'm not sure about people imposing their views on everyone else though, it's each to their own at the end of the day.

Each birder/twitcher does their own thing at their own pace, I enjoy local patching but also love going twitching too.

Some people do patch lists, self found lists, year lists etc. Others simply go out for the day to enjoy a day's birding and a bit of fresh air and freedom. It's all down to the individual at the end of the day, afterall we are all different and do things by our own choice and not anyone elses.

Certain people's lists will be more strict than others. In my case, I just wanted to get an opinion on a couple of examples that had been talked about recently, ie birds out of the hand and also ship assisted birds as I am pretty strict when it comes to my own list.

I thought I would get some views off the forum on a subject that myself and a few of my fellow birders have been discussing recently.

Indeed, If any of the birds mentioned are against the principles of the "so called list police" I will gladly remove them.

Ian McKerchar wrote:

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As for rules, there aren't any as such unless you competitively list. Frankly you can count what you like on your own personal lists.

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Sunday 16th of September 2012 08:59:06 PM

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Hear, hear, Ian, it's a hobby & so many people forget that & try to impose their views on everyone else - they become the so-called 'List Police'. Just enjoy the hobby, watch the birds & note down whatever you like

As a non lister(I can hear the gasps)and as such unaware of the rules regarding listing am I right in assuming that if a bird is proven to be ship assisted it doesn't count on the grounds it isn't natural?if this is the case then I think you should also only be able to tick a bird if you have ran/walked/swam to a twitch!surely by the same logic there is nothing 'natural' about getting a taxi two flights and a boat to get to a twitch.and information on birds should only be distributed via carrier pigeon.joking aside I would be interested to know these rules as they seem a little finicky to me and so long as the lists are not to be compared/in competition with other listers then its a personal thing to my mind.
Waiting to be educated...
Cheers Chris.

I personally don't see a problem with 'ticking' birds which have hitched a lift on a ship. In the book 'Bird Migration' by Ian Newton, there is an account of a ship travelling from New York to Southampton. "On the morning of the second day, 500km out from New York and under heavily overcast skies, more than 130 birds of at least 34 different species appeared on the deck. The crew provided food which some of the birds ate. As the days passed, these birds gradually disappeared and others arrived, but nine birds were still present as the ship passed southwest Ireland. At this point, a Yellow-shafted Flicker flew ashore. When the ship docked at Southampton, four birds were still present including two White-throated Sparrows, one Song Sparrow and a Slate-coloured Junco. The next day, a White-throated Sparrow was seen in a nearby park".

So maybe a good strategy for topping up on your American vagrants is to check all the cruise ships as they come in.

As for trapped and ringed birds, I don't think you can argue that they are not 'tickable', as the bird is still wild, but as Phil mentioned, the bird is "given" so can you really say you've been out and spotted it yourself. That one comes down to each individuals opinion.

Cheers,

Steve.

You did indeed Phil but just because it's near a port seems an unfortunate tag to put on such a species. That's not to say it's possible to discount that theory entirely (as it isn't with the many of the bird species we get), despite how far fetched it may seem (to some) but the same bird was also subsequently seen in three/four other counties in the UK and I wonder if it had been overlooked at Seaforth, would a word have been said about it's ship assisted potential in the other non-port related sites it visited? Perhaps the 2007 bird in Dumfries and Galloway (plus Leighton Moss later on) was initially at Seaforth but went unnoticed there

One wonders just how many of our vagrant birds have been (naturally) ship assisted; I'd perhaps expect it to be a lot (see last year's Yellow-billed Cuckoo in Merseyside). For me it detracts nothing from the bird itself though and I'd count them on a list, unless it can be proven that there had been 'intervention' by humans at some point. Luckily I don't have such a list though, unless I get lucky with a Yankee Sparrow as a self-found near a grain ship on the Ship Canal by Eccles one day .

Oh and as and when Peter Alker pulls his next biggy out of a mist net at Pennington it will be going on my site list as long as I see it on site

Ian McKerchar wrote:

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White-tailed Plover ship assisted? Am I out of the loop here?

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Hi Ian,

I did say "possible" and therefore to be honest, I don't know for sure.

A couple of Seaforth birders I know, mentioned this as a possibility to me at the time I seem to remember though.

I've had several discussions with fellow birders recently on this subject, so thought I'd post on the discussion forum to get some general opinions.

Just wondered what are your views on birds trapped and ringed? Would you actually count them on your own personal BOU list?

Personally, I see no problem doing so and have had lots of conversations arguing the case for counting any trapped and ringed birds on a Life List.

A prime example of this was the Western Orphean Warbler at Hartlepool which I was lucky enough to catch up with and where hundreds of twitchers made the trip. I've since had some people say "it's not natural" or it's a "given bird" but the bird was only trapped and ringed in the area it was found and then released back into the same area again.

A lot of ringers around the country, especially with a rare or scarce bird give a time for release to enable birders to tick a new species. This indeed happened at Spurn once with a Wryneck for me which I dashed over from the seawatching hide to see.

Some countries I think, have a 24 hour rule where birds cannot be "ticked" if seen within this time if previously trapped and released although I can't remember off the top of my head, which country/countries this applies to.

Another area of debate is possible "ship assisted" birds like the White-tailed Plover at Seaforth or the Spanish Sparrow at Calshot, Hampshire? Again, I don't see a problem, particually the Spanish Sparrow as it was resident in the area for over 2 years and even hooked up with the local female House Sparrow to produce hybrid offspring.

Anyway, I have counted all of the above species on my own BOU list and am happy with doing so, but would welcome any opinions to continue the debate that I have had many times.

Over to you!!!!