Ian McKerchar wrote:

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Dean Macdonald wrote:

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To me it sounded like "come and have a walk around penny with the superb Ian Mckerchar"

Cheers Dean

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well, I'll agree I'm not so sure I'm worth that much for just a mere wander round Dean!

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Well it gave me something to do at work yesterday writing the posts and now fully explained by Ian , I know He is the best person to do these workshops,but if im in the hide when you come in and Ian starts talking tertials,and rimages,please give me a poke when you leave because I will have fallen asleepor be thinking of Donuts
Whoever goes on the workshop I am sure it will be well worth it ,but scarper to the back o billies,before I arrive in horrocks hide at 11am,and if I find owt I will send smoke signals from the hide window.

Well that certainly got things going
The point i was initially trying to raise was a "guided tour" costing £30 to help identify the birds of pennington flash could cause problems with people on site who were not part of the tour. I've been at sites in the past were guided parties have arrived and basically taken over the place. So i can see John's point of view.
What i meant by "undermine" the forum was the fact that we are here to share information freely, so paying for a tour just seemed wrong at such a popular and well covered site.
Having read through Ian's and Dave's replies explaining what the workshops are going to be doing i realise they are much more than a guided tour.
Maybe a more detailed description of what the workshops were about in the original advertisement would have helped.

To me it sounded like "come and have a walk around penny with the superb Ian Mckerchar"

Cheers Dean

John, clearly the workshop is not aimed at you then as you've learned all you want to learn but for others, especially newer birders living in a world of misleading Internet information and a seemingly serious decline in knowledge of commoner birds at the very least, the level of tuition and depth of instruction in the workshop offers much.

If unscrupulous folk run similar events they soon get found out as the content of the day will be plain to see for those participants and forums like this soon put the word around. I don't currently know of any such events or companies myself. People have paid for foreign birding holidays complete with a tour guide for years. They're not my cup of tea but for many they are absolutely ideal and they are still very popular and rightly so in my opinion. They have worked positively in every aspect of birding, from increasing our own knowldge of birds and birding in other regions, allowed many to see exotic species they never otherwise would have, opening up areas of the world and importantly raising and having a very positive impact on conservation in those areas. Many birders use them once, learn what they can from the experienced guides and then re-visit on their own the next year. Seems pretty sensible to me.

I read with interest the comments about Charlie's photographic hide offer on the relevant thread, which you yourself promoted remember, as they were resoundingly positive and the results were plain to see. Clearly for those participants of that day, it was very well worth it. Could they not have picked this up naturally over time or was it worth them learning from someone with considerable experience first to get the ball rolling and put them on the right track in the first place, the early stages? The latter is right for me I'm afraid.

You appear to have overlooked my original comments John about us only using the hides very early when they are practically always empty too, so I'm not sure why we would make it uncomfortable for anyone else. I think the south side or Rammies Ruck can accomodate 10 of us, never mind Teal Hide .

As for giving knowledge freely John, you of all people should know I give mine to anyone, anytime and on a daily basis with absolute pleasure (I have always said it is a privileged position to be in) as you yourself have utilised it many times. I of course will continue to do so, as that's what I'm here for, but you are underestimating the purpose and level of tuition of the workshop John. If it really were that easy then I'm sure there would be lots of folk doing it already.

It seems you and I have discussed the agreed erosion of birding in recent years John yet how do we go about making a change to that? I have and will continue in my attempt to improve matters at least on a county basis on the website but this workshop is a much, much more personal service. Put the money aside John, and what can be better than learning first hand from someone who knows intimately the subject they are giving tuition on? Put the money back and would you pay for the level of public liability insurance that is required to run such a workshop? What is the price for the level of pre-planning, provision of certain items for the day and of guaranteed tuition for a full day?

I fully appreciate and respect that it's not for you John but neither is photography for me though I still appreciate it and that improvements for those photographers will in the end benefit me via their better quality images. Similarly improving, or at least trying to improve birding will benefit those birders involved and eventually us all.

If I hadn't at least attempted to make a change to county birding some five and a bit years ago where would it be now I wonder? Better or worse?




-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 03:59:40 PM

Having given Dave permission to post his comment on this forum, it's only right I should reply to the comments so far.

Of course both of you know I fully respect your comments but parts of your replies are off the mark I'm afraid. When I was asked to run an identification workshop I jumped at the chance. Afterall, it gives me a chance to actually get one to one with folk rather than just writing articles or replying to emails on the subject. I personally believe (and have proof) that birding 'field craft' is in decline and through this website I have attempted to address that, afterall, that was one of the main points of me starting the whole thing in the first place! So to say it undermines what Manchester Birding is all about is wrong.

Do you realise how many paying groups already operate at Pennington Flash? To say that the hides will become like classrooms is naive John, do you think the workshop is just me sat in a hide pointing out birds to folk? Do you think it has not been carefully planned? The hides would be used very early morning when they are quiet and the remainer of the day will be spent exploring the entire flash recording area with the majority away from the reserve area.

Do you understand the intricacy of the ageing features of common birds we see everyday, at looking closer at a full range of bird topography, of seperating difficult to identify species (whether they're present on the day or not)? Do you understand how to break down bird song to understand it's true complexity, beauty and then to utilise that in identification? Can you sketch in the field, pick out key features and get them onto paper? If you can then you've no need to come then . These are just a few aims of the workshop, with it's overall aim to get birders to look and listen more closely at birds. To enlighten them on what to look for and how to look for it (sounds easy enough but we both know recent mistakes by birders proves its not as easy as it sounds ). It will look closely at bird recording, it's purpose and how to go about it (we both know it's a dying art) and we'll also record bird song whilst in the field and analyse it there and then. Not everyone's an artist but we can all draw no matter how rudimentary that might be and therefore we can all improve. Its pretty much a dead art yet there's no surprise that a very good proportion of the very best birders in the British Isles, the most forward thinking, those at the cutting edge of bird identification, those at the very top of their game, are also bird artists. It's all about the way we actually look at birds and again, it's key to the workshop.

There are free birding walks John (there are also some paid too) but this workshop is not one of those. It is so far distant that the two cannot be compared I'm afraid. I only know this because I know what the day will entail.

To say 'what will anyone learn in a day' is a shame really as I don't doubt those visiting Charlie's photography hide learn loads don't they? I will stand by my words here and guarantee that any birder will learn plenty, if they're willing to learn of course!

The workshop is not about introducing anyone to Pennington Flash (though it will explore areas frankly no one goes to) or just showing a group of people birds. It's not about finding ticks, target birds and the like as that's just a million miles away from it's intention. It's not a gentle walk with a bit of casual birding, it's a full on participating identification workshop which I guarantee will make a difference to anyone's birding. Sound confident? Well, I'm confident I can back it up or I wouldn't have agreed to do it in the first place. Those who know me also know money isn't the point but if I'm offered a full day's work (and it will be work) then I'm not going to refuse it and it may go some way to pay the £720 a year bill I pay personally for this free to use forum

Wigan Council have also of course been asked if the workshop can go ahead and of course Dave's company offers full insurance for the day and risk assessment etc. It's not just been thought up as a quick money making opportunity John.

As for Martin Garner's gull workshop at Richmond Bank. Well, considering that myself and Pete Berry have watched the gulls there far, far more than anyone else over the past two years (at least twice a week for six months of the year and never a month missed otherwise) and now consider it our second home, it doesn't worry me if Martin's there with a big crowd of paying folk when I am. Good on him I say. Those on his day will learn an awful lot about gulls I can assure you that and at the end of it I guarantee they will feel it is money well spent. It's no surprise that many folks who go on one of his gull days then also book for the others, travelling fair distances to get there.

Some things just can't be learned from books, websites or forums, no matter what. If the workshop was free then no one would have batted an eyelid but I don't see why some find offence where others will gladly pay for what is on offer. Anyway, we all have our different views and we're all entitled to them. That's what this forum is all about

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 12:26:56 PM

Dean Macdonald wrote:

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I've always found that birders at penny are happy to help anyone id a bird. If not on site, then in discussions on this forum.
Paying for a lesson seems to undermine everything this website stands for.

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I am with Dean on this one,I don't think these should be done on a public area ,like penny where birding has always been free,as it may lead to these sort of things becoming regular and done by many people.All I need is to work all week and to find on a saturday the hides are full of people doing birdwatching workshops,or whats next photographic workshops?Hides at penny should be for everyone ,not used as classrooms.
I have just seen an advert for one on Richmond bank for £35 called cheshire Gull Day,offering possible kuimlins,iceland and yellow legged gulls ,how would the gullers feel if on a quiet saturday relaxing,suddenly you have 20 people surrounding you who have payed someone for the privalage,and your the odd one out whos been doing it at the site for years
I think this is the thin end of a wedge where if these are seen as the norm ,how long before you arrive at penny or similar to see signs on the hide doors saying reserved for workshop.As far as im aware wigan council already provide free birding walks at certain time of year anyway,or have been in recent years with Chris Darbyshire leading them.
Sorry but these sort of things may benefit some people,but what will anyone learn in a day,I am still learning after nearly 40 years,and where will this lead.This is not personal against anyone ,but penny as one of the only free sites with so many free hides,should remain such,and shouldn't be used as a business.
If I had been payed for everyone i have introduced to birding at penny I would be able to retire and move to Anglesay.If I had any sence I would charge £5 and do them every day of the week to whoever turns up,then I could leave my factory Job,and do payed birding for the rest of my life ,but I daupt wigan council would allow me to do that on what is a public ameanity.

Sorry but I dont agree with these sort of things


-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 07:34:20 AM