As I was driving to work through Trafford Park yesterday I half noticed an advertising board with the word "Brockholes" on it. I payed more attention as I drove past it this morning !
The advertising board is a 6ft x 5ft stand alone board and is positioned just outside the car park of the Sam Platts pub on Trafford Wharf Road. Its advertising Brockholes as a family attraction to get close to nature.
Whilst I can understand LWT spending money on advertising the "upgraded" Brockholes I'm not convinced of the strategy of relatively small posters located so far away from the site. I could understand it if these posters were located around its location but on a side street in Trafford Park ?? Are similar posters up around the rest of Manchester and Lancashire ?? Do the LWT have control over where the posters are sited ??
Whilst I think there are plenty of commendable actions by the LWT (and the fact they have engaged in discussions on this thread is very positive) I'm not convinced they have a thought through joined up strategy.
The bottom line is I was very surprised to see it there !!!
LWT- credit where credit is due, I may not agree with your stance but I am really pleased that you have come on and given some background so many thanks for that. I hope the opening goes well this weekend
We understand why you are concerned about car park charges for members, especially when compared with some other organisations. The Trust felt the same way when we started to look in to it which was a very frustrating process as we were very keen to offer free or reduced parking to members. There are a number of different reasons why at this stage we havent been able to, which we will try to explain.
The Trustees have always felt strongly about making Brockholes free to access for as many people as possible. For those arriving on foot, by public transport or bicycle, it will be free. However, Brockholes must be self-financing, it was a condition of the funding and LWT doesnt have the resources to underwrite its running costs; therefore the income from the car park will be vital in helping to pay for on-going reserve management, maintenance of the visitor facilities and the work of the Trust as a whole.
With regards to offering car parking as a member benefit, LWT took advice from two separate VAT consultants. We are zero VAT rated, which means Vat is not charged on subscriptions as some other charities do to compensate for VAT relating to member benefits. We were advised of the risk of losing up to 20% of members' subscriptions in VAT and were strongly advised against it.
Furthermore, charities who allow free entry for members to their reserves/ properties are able to do so because they charge an admission fee to non members. The right of admission is a specifically excluded benefit and does not affect their ability to claim Gift Aid on members subscriptions. Unfortunately car parking charges are not excluded, a further potential loss of 25% in gift aid. As a modest sized charity in a difficult financial climate where funding is being lost, LWT cannot afford to jeopardise this core income.
We are still looking at solutions and are constantly reviewing the car park situation. In the meantime, there is a parking pass on offer for the first 6 months for £35, which should offer a saving for birders and regular visitors. The mechanics of how that will work with the new barrier system are being looked at and will be published on the Brockholes website www.brockholes.org.
If you have any concerns or questions about these issues, please feel free to get in touch with us via membership@lancswt.org.uk.
Just a note of interest, i received a letter today from the LWT and this is part of the letter
We've been pleased to receive lots of interest from people hoping to visit on a regular basis, so for car users, we will be offering a 6 month parking pass for £35 as a trial. Well keep you up to date on how to apply for your pass on the Brockholes website.
Please forward this newsletter to your friends and family who have an interest in wildlife conservation, we are always looking for new members to join us. Thank you.
Sally Handscombe Membership Officer
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Did you see it? It was small and brown and flew that way.........................
I am sure that someone from the LWT (income 2010: £6.2m; expenditure £3.26m) cost of salaries £1.9m, employees 127...... etc etc will be reading this and be more than happy to engage with important stakeholders by posting their response on this website or by providing a link to their own where they have addressed these concerns.....
I'm not sure you can fairly compare the LWT with RSPB and WWT.
I think it is very interesting to compare the 3 organisations.
Most of the smaller RSPB reserves are free of charge. The larger reserves near by such as Leighton Moss and Conwy, have a very reasonable charge for non member adults (around £5 I think). In the larger reserves such as above the quality of the food is excellent, and the prices very reasonable.
LWT do not charge for any reserves, even their flagship reserve at Mere Sands Wood.
WWT seem to attempt to milk every penny they can out of you. On top of the outrageous admission charges of almost £10 per non member adult, they even charge a round £2-50 just for a map /guide of the reserve at Martiin Mere. The cafe food is pertty mundane and the prices are very high. I recently bought a scone for over £2, the same item at Leighton Moss was £1-30
-- Edited by Gordon Cottle on Saturday 16th of April 2011 11:31:20 PM
Yet another organisation hammering the car user, no doubt justifying it by playing the 'green' card. One day nobody will be able to afford to run a vehicle any more, it will then be mildly amusing to witness these people staring down an empty road wondering when any visitors are going to arrive. Then, to use a birdy phrase, they will have killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
Edit: If I turned up, even as a one-off daytrip, even with a carload of people, and I thought there was a risk of us making a 'day' of it i.e maybe over five hours, thus incurring ten quid, I'd turn the car round and go elsewhere.
Assuming a car load is 4 people, that's £2.50 each for a full day, not bad value! It's the local patch and lone birders who will suffer!
For information Neil, there are already (and has been for many years) a dedicated band of birders who have covered this site regularly long before the site was even a glint in LWTs eye. If it were not for them then the sites potential would never have been realised in the first place.
As for spending money in a shop, I really don't think that's what these birders go birding for
I'm not sure you can fairly compare the LWT with RSPB and WWT.
RSPB membership gives you free visiting and free parking at a huge number of professionally-run sites throughout the UK.
Similarly the WWT is a national organisation with several sites, admittedly individual entry is a bit pricey but it's also in the family day tripper market and (at Martin Mere, at least) has lots on show for non-birders.
It looks like LWT have pitched Brockholes at the WWT level and for their market; if it's well-run and informative, a tenner for day out with a car full of family is reasonable but for individual birders the cost is prohibitive, unless there's a tick-it-and-run bird to be got within the hour.
As it doesn't look too easy to access by public transport, or to park the car a short distance away and walk, this will militate against the birder who's prepared to make it a local patch and work the area. But there again such birders probably spend very little money in the cafe and gift shop ...
As somebody who doesn't drive and who has never paid a penny in parking fees, I'd still say ten pound is too much. I resent paying through the nose for anything because I don't like the idea of being manipulated in any shape or form, which is basically what happens when a car park, any car park, charges an obscene amount to people who have to park there. . Some folks might say 'Well, if you look at it like this...' in mitigation, but truth is, it's ten pound 'a day' (assuming one stays over five hours) and that's too much; scandalous, in fact.
Edit: If I turned up, even as a one-off daytrip, even with a carload of people, and I thought there was a risk of us making a 'day' of it i.e maybe over five hours, thus incurring ten quid, I'd turn the car round and go elsewhere.
-- Edited by John Doherty on Saturday 16th of April 2011 02:10:58 AM
I must admit, looking at the 3 main charities quoted in this discusion RSPB, WWT, and Lancs WT, I find the most "money grabbers" is definately WWT.
I live quite close to Martin Mere, but it is only since I recently retired that I have become a member as I can visit more than once a week.
I have been a member of RSPB and Lancs WT for many years, and try to support them by buying seed etc from their main sites when I can. Following a day visit to RSPB Leighton Moss and using the cafe, I would estimate that the restaurant prices at Martin Mere compared to Leighton Moss are about 50% more expensive and the choice of meals at Leighton Moss is much better.
Brockholes now takes the Lancs WT into the "Big League" for the first time and it will be placed alongside the likes of Leighton Moss and Martin Mere as top NW England reserves. It must be a learning curve for Lancs WT, and I am sure they will be reponsive to the points raised in this discusion.
-- Edited by Gordon Cottle on Friday 15th of April 2011 04:44:59 PM
-- Edited by Gordon Cottle on Friday 15th of April 2011 04:46:13 PM
-- Edited by Gordon Cottle on Friday 15th of April 2011 04:46:46 PM
Just to add another point or two, ( I'm enjoying this rant; -it's really got me fired up I feel so indignant about it!). To put a comparative perspective on this ,as a senior citizen my Teesmouth Bird Club membership costs me £10 per annum with free parking on restricted sites in superb birding habitats. In addition, the adjacent Saltholme RSPB complex (which cost £7 million to develop) also has unlimited free parking for RSPB members, (Barbara and I pay £3 per month re our joint membership and any guests with us also pay nothing). I along with some others also have an additional permit to enter part of the reserve area prior to normal opening hours, (useful if a rarity for example turns up) - extra cost = zero. Now overall, that's what I call good value as a yardstick for comparison with LWT, who in my humble view would perhaps benefit from a few lessons in common sense and PR. .
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Challenges are inevitable, but failure is optional.
From Wigan with current prices, it will cost the thick end of £10 to get there and back in fuel, but you wont blink at that will you?
I can get to the top of Lancashire and back easily on £10 worth of diesel. Brockholes is a mere 15 minutes up the M6. The cost of fuel is not the issue here...
As has been mentioned, £1.20 for a full days birding at Pennington Flash is perfectly reasonable. Marshside RSPB will cost you diddly-squat. LWT, in my opinion are being totally unreasonable in demanding that existing members pay £10 for a days birding.........Mark my words, it will back-fire on them !
As one who has never visited this site, (nor ever likely to!) I support Ian Woosey's view 100%. The attitude behind charging £10 per day to visitors (assuming they would stay long enough to incur such a charge) seems based on the idea that a car load of people might be involved and can therefore be treated like "tourists" on a "one off day out" and "milked" accordingly. What about regular patch working birders who most likely turn up alone (presumably like Ian) and put in the time on a regular basis, perhaps visiting 3 or 4 times per week?
Presumably LWT have little interest in such birders, and were I involved as an adversely affected regular, I should terminate my membership in protest (or at least make serious noises threatening to do so) and come hell or high water think of some means of walking into the place on foot were it a sufficiently worthwhile birding site. As regards Pennington Flash, where I do put in some hours during my infrequent visits, I begrudge their charge of £1. 20 not one iota, and just hope they don't get carried away in the years ahead.
The cost of fuel is bad enough now without some of these organisations soaking people with ludicrous car parking fees; - I just wonder what planet some of them are from.
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Challenges are inevitable, but failure is optional.
Let me put this into a personal context; as a member of the WWT my annual subscription is £36. I visit Martin Mere at least once a month (spending the whole day there). If you equate that to having to spend £10 for each visit (as per Brockholes) that would cost me £120+ per year - so £36 per annum is absolutely excellent value. As I have stated I am a Life member of LWT (which costed a considerable amount of money at the outset). Why should I then be charged EXTRA to visit Brockholes ?
Mr Rigby, as regards your view (through Twitchers eyes ) you will not be able to twitch anything there because the regulars whose local patch it is/WAS will no longer be able to afford to go there day in and day out to find you anything !! Spare a thought for those poor sods ! Imagine Castleshaw being taken over by the Derbyshire Wildlife Trust and then banging YOU with a £10 per visit charge..........think about it !
To be honest, based on prices at RSPB, WWT and Wildlife Trust reserves its not that expensive. Martin Mere is £9.85 to get in for non members for example.
If you look at Weeting Heath its £3.50 to get in (for non members) for probably an hour or twos birding.
Takes Riggers example, if you take a car full, then its much cheaper. If you go for a quick mooch on the way to another place and its only a quid, spend a bit of time and its only 4 quid!
From Wigan with current prices, it will cost the thick end of £10 to get there and back in fuel, but you wont blink at that will you?
I do agree though if you are a member of LWT, you shouldnt have to pay additionally for parking/entrance fee, and maybe that is something that you should be putting to them.
-- Edited by Matt Potter on Thursday 14th of April 2011 04:05:11 PM
Let me put this into a personal context; as a member of the WWT my annual subscription is £36. I visit Martin Mere at least once a month (spending the whole day there). If you equate that to having to spend £10 for each visit (as per Brockholes) that would cost me £120+ per year - so £36 per annum is absolutely excellent value. As I have stated I am a Life member of LWT (which costed a considerable amount of money at the outset). Why should I then be charged EXTRA to visit Brockholes ?
Mr Rigby, as regards your view (through Twitchers eyes ) you will not be able to twitch anything there because the regulars whose local patch it is/WAS will no longer be able to afford to go there day in and day out to find you anything !! Spare a thought for those poor sods ! Imagine Castleshaw being taken over by the Derbyshire Wildlife Trust and then banging YOU with a £10 per visit charge..........think about it !
A family ticket at martin mere is around £25 for non members. Around £9 for adults. The car park is free but You pay the same entrance fee weather you stay for 10 mins or 8 hours. Brockholes doesn't sound so bad when you look at It like that. However, it should be free for members of LWT.
Reet, we have had a thread for a rant at the RSPB, now I feel the Lancashire Wildlife Trust deserves one of their own ! My rant being the carparking charges at Brockholes, which will officially open amid much fan-fare at Easter. Below are the published charges taken from their website:
"There will be a charge for the car park:
Up to 1 hour - £1
Up to 5 hours - £4
Over 5 hours - £10
Prices are per car, not per person. There will be a pay on departure system in place. Visitors will take a ticket at the entrance barrier, and then on departure pay for and validate the ticket at a machine in the car park before leaving through the exit barrier. The charges apply to all users and are a fee, not a donation. Coaches will be charged £10 for parking for over an hour."
........Now, does anyone on this forum DARE to justify how they can charge these prices ?
I might agree that a small charge may be made to non-members, but would YOU (as a member, perhaps) spend all day there knowing that at the end of it you have to shell out TEN QUID for the privilege of just parking your bloody car ???
(For the record I am a life member of the LWT, and when they first got out the begging cap to secure funding for a "nature reserve" there I gladly donated more money....).
and people complain about £1.20 a day at penny and park elseware to save paying that-£10 a day no way would i pay that just for parking ,if your a member it should be free.Imagine the wilfowl trust and rspb watching this,next it will be £10 to park at martin mere or leighton moss,its ripping people off-ill stick to my £40 a year parking permit for penny
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Thursday 14th of April 2011 07:34:18 AM
Reet, we have had a thread for a rant at the RSPB, now I feel the Lancashire Wildlife Trust deserves one of their own ! My rant being the carparking charges at Brockholes, which will officially open amid much fan-fare at Easter. Below are the published charges taken from their website:
"There will be a charge for the car park:
Up to 1 hour - £1
Up to 5 hours - £4
Over 5 hours - £10
Prices are per car, not per person. There will be a pay on departure system in place. Visitors will take a ticket at the entrance barrier, and then on departure pay for and validate the ticket at a machine in the car park before leaving through the exit barrier. The charges apply to all users and are a fee, not a donation. Coaches will be charged £10 for parking for over an hour."
........Now, does anyone on this forum DARE to justify how they can charge these prices ?
I might agree that a small charge may be made to non-members, but would YOU (as a member, perhaps) spend all day there knowing that at the end of it you have to shell out TEN QUID for the privilege of just parking your bloody car ???
(For the record I am a life member of the LWT, and when they first got out the begging cap to secure funding for a "nature reserve" there I gladly donated more money....).
no way would i pay that just for parking ,if your a member it should be free.Imagine the wilfowl trust and rspb watching this,next it will be £10 to park at martin mere or leighton moss,its ripping people off-ill stick to my £40 a year parking permit for penny