Ian McKerchar wrote:


At the end of the day Den, without this thread, the opportunity for that dialogue may not have come, relationships between parties may have worsened and the mosslands themselves could ultimately suffer. Its been well worth the typing Den



I think Ian's comment sums up this debate and I also think that Dennis was correct in starting this post in the first place.

The fact that Stephen Cartwright wanted some discussion between various people and groups concerning possible future work on the mosses is a step in the right direction.

I have moaned a lot about the LWT [ justifiable in my opinion] over the years and not just on this forum but to be honest they have also done some great work on the mosses and hopefully will continue to do so.

Lets remember, Its good to talk!!!



-- Edited by Dave Thacker on Wednesday 23rd of March 2011 09:20:36 PM

All I will say Dennis is that like any other forum on the Internet, don't take everything you read at face value (from either side!). Comments are personal opinion and not necessarily factually correct unless otherwise stated. LWT can't be blamed for the loss of Tree Pipits as they declined well before any tree felling and disappeared from Croxdens under their own steam too. I think their work on the mosses is essential otherwise we'd loose them (the mosses, not LWT!) but the lack of prior information dissemination has created misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Hopefully we are now working forward to correct these problems, we'll see but it will be very easy in my opinion to go too far and do too much on the mosses and for this at least, open dialogue with LWT will be essential.

At the end of the day Den, without this thread, the opportunity for that dialogue may not have come, relationships between parties may have worsened and the mosslands themselves could ultimately suffer. Its been well worth the typing Den

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Wednesday 23rd of March 2011 08:08:29 AM

Okay, I think this thread has gone far enough and has unfortunately out lived its use.

Gavin, I certainly find your most recent comments and the tone in which I read them personally, to be quite hostile and unnecessary. I'm unsure as to whether you know Astley Moss or not but so far, the work of LWT there has been both entirely necessary and positive. Without it the entire site would now be a huge birch woodland! It is important to remember that all Stephens comments were via private email and may not have originally been intended for public airing but either way he was trying to be helpful using the information he had to hand. Perhaps in hindsight a more formal route should have been undertaken by all parties.

Either way I have taken the time to contact LWT personally regarding the matter and have met with openess and encouraging responses. Wheels are in motion and there's more to come on the matter so at least some good has come from the thread

As and when I have further information it will be published on the Manchester Birding website.

having asked a question originally I think it is only fair to comment. The situation is, unfortunately, much as I feared.


Several e-mails seem to have been sent to different people all rather vague and with none of them answering any subsequent questions,

see original one :


"We (LWT) are currently working on a funding bid to carry out access improvements and habitat management on the Chat Moss area
.....
and asking us:

to provide a short letter of support that we can send off with the bid stating how important the sites are for wildlife and how you support our efforts to improve them

next to Judith:

"I am currently aiding the mosslands team in their bid for funding to carry out works within the Chat Moss area. I am not sure how much you already know about this project"

alarm bells continue to be rung ever louder as we hear that although they "At the moment we haven't drawn up any plans whatsoever" e-mails contain phrases such as:

"it would seem a shame to start installing great big paths everywhere"

and finally the latest:

"so that even if worst comes to worst and we cant agree on plans we can at the very least explain the reasoning behind them"




So as I see it after all this, the position is very simple, Mr Cartwright:

what exactly are your proposals?
I do not believe that you have none, but, in the absence of a firm plan what are the options you are considering?


How can we "know about this project" if you cannot provide details?


My experience of funding bids is that they would normally want to know 1) how much money you wanted and 2) what you were going to use it for at the very least, it would only seem sensible that you could provide the same prior to anyone providing their support.


Instead of obfuscation, evasion and double speak please clearly set out the options before you and ask people to comment and feedback in a co-ordinated manner so that you can honestly say that you have consulted with the key stakeholders rather than trying to elicit a number of open ended letters of support without giving any detail.


For the record my personal opinion is that you should leave well alone, I don't want "great big paths" or any other "improvements" to a truly wild site that stands as an oasis for both resident and migrating birds in this part of the country.

Gavin

Thats very Sad Pete, i did not know about this, the knowledge of birders on this site never ceases to impress me, i wish they had listened in the past, i was hoping to create a bridge between the LWT and the knowledgeable birders on here, i did not know they had burnt some bridges in the past,

Thanks a lot Dave

A little more info from LWT reguarding there ideas and hopes they have to get some sound advice from Astley moss regulars that know the area best to help work out what is best suited for the future of the mossland reguarding what is best for the wildlife in the area

Hi Dennis,

Thank you for your help with this, I really appreciate it.

At the moment we haven't drawn up any plans whatsoever which is why we desperately need the thoughts of users of the sites. We regularly get comments that one of the aspects users of the site greatly appreciate is how wild they feel. With this is mind it would seem a shame to start installing great big paths everywhere, not to mention the fact that we don't want to adversely affect wildlife. Having said that however we believe that these sites are very important and should be enjoyed by as wide a range of people as possible and therefore be as accessible as possible. Obviously we need to find the right balance and ensure that we get it right first time around which is why we are asking for comments from everyone, particularly people who already know and love the site. Currently with Astley Moss we give out permits for people to visit the site. This is simply because mosslands can be very dangerous if you don't know your way around and it allows us to give the brief health and safety warning. We would appreciate any comments as to whether people feel this should continue or whether we should open access to everyone to visit the site without first contacting us.

If people would like we could arrange a date to visit to the sites to discuss access issues and any other thoughts they might have regarding the future of the area?

Best regards,

Stephen Cartwright
Wildlife Trust for Lancashire, Manchester & North Merseyside.


Anyone who would like to show there support, ideas or concerns are greatly appreciated and can contact me on here or direct to Stephen Cartwright at LWT on

scartwright@lancswt.org.uk

Thanks Dennis

Incidentally, in the March 2011 issue of Lancashire Magazine there is an article about the Astley Moss shoot with an interview with its gamekeeper. My husband read it at the dentist so haven't seen it myself, but he got the name of the gamekeeper right!

Thanks Ian,


I have also mentioned your concerns and i will reply with responses, hopefully will can build a bridge between us Gmbirders and the LWT, Stephen is open to any questions or concerns and hopefullly we can push him in the right direction to preserve and maintain the moss best to suit the wildlife


to

Ian McKerchar wrote:

---

I have to say that as it's a local patch of mine (both Astley Moss and Croxdens Peat Works), somewhere I've now been visiting for a rather ridiculous sounding (considering I'm such a young lad!) 31 years, I am intrigued as to what the 'access improvements' the LWT mention are

I have been very (very) impressed by their work on Astley and Bedford Moss and fully support it but occasionally (and it has been the case previously) the opinion of local birders, those with the most comprehensive knowledge of the site, has been overlooked and the entirely necessary short term impact of the work needed to achieve their long term goal at these sites has not been communicated to the locals, leading to a slight conflict of interests.

---

I have to say that as it's a local patch of mine (both Astley Moss and Croxdens Peat Works), somewhere I've now been visiting for a rather ridiculous sounding (considering I'm such a young lad!) 31 years, I am intrigued as to what the 'access improvements' the LWT mention are

I have been very (very) impressed by their work on Astley and Bedford Moss and fully support it but occasionally (and it has been the case previously) the opinion of local birders, those with the most comprehensive knowledge of the site, has been overlooked and the entirely necessary short term impact of the work needed to achieve their long term goal at these sites has not been communicated to the locals, leading to a slight conflict of interests.