Oh and Craig, I do the devil's advocate around here , you're a ringer (well, would be as and when I give you're measuring gear back ) so stick to that point of view. You and you're barbed wire, electrified nets and new-fangled lead weighted, full length leg caliper rings
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 08:22:32 PM
Ex ringer Ian, ex ringer. I'll have BTO ringing me up and barring me from something I dont do anymore!!!
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No one on their death bed ever said they wished they'd spent more time at work. http://bitsnbirds.blogspot.co.uk
To be fair Ian does play the Devils Advocate role well !!!! There are a few choice examples amongst the forum !!! Goes hand in hand with his damn Mystery Bird comp !!
Purely from a devils advocates perspective (I used to ring a bit but not for a good few years) a few points that came to mind:
1. John - your last post contradicts what you said earlier about being disappointed if you find a photo of a bird is spoiled by its rings. Surely what you wrote in the last post exemplifies why ringing is so valuable. Plus, (and I apologise if this comes across badly - its not meant to) a dissappointing photo is hardly a reason not to ring birds when the info gained is so hugely beneficial to conservation of both species and habitats!
Craig Yes I probably mellowed through the day,as its not worth causing upset,for anyone,and although I was angry at the first post,there are worse things in the world than someone ringing waxwings,as i know only too well. And i may have had the odd e-mail or private message,that told me in my mind I had been a bit strong in my first post,when reflecting a little.but in the end my main point stays,birds should not be being ringed in the current conditions,and the waxwings although used to this weather,are here to feed,and are finding it difficult due to our own residents keeping them away from berries,because they are hungry
no arguments as you know ringing obviously more than I, but speaking for myself,i do hate pictures of birds with rings,and have deleted hundreds because of it,and yes I do contadict myself sometimes,as i think things through later in the day.
Nick, it's not unfair if you didn't know in the first place . That was the whole point of encouraging such a thread as this, you might learn something! I have been in touch with a couple of ringers regarding this issue and I hadn't realised their permit stipulations and their personal obligations. They (rightly?) will not take the chance of jeopardising their permits just to partake in a Internet discussion. Job done for me then
I agree with Craig regarding Waxwings that our current winter still isn't really that cold to them and that they still have plenty of food to go at. It's also important to remember that their 'eruption' was not due to a lack of food in their native lands but more the result of a particularly good breeding season.
Oh and Craig, I do the devil's advocate around here , you're a ringer (well, would be as and when I give you're measuring gear back ) so stick to that point of view. You and you're barbed wire, electrified nets and new-fangled lead weighted, full length leg caliper rings
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 08:22:32 PM
Purely from a devils advocates perspective (I used to ring a bit but not for a good few years) a few points that came to mind:
1. John - your last post contradicts what you said earlier about being disappointed if you find a photo of a bird is spoiled by its rings. Surely what you wrote in the last post exemplifies why ringing is so valuable. Plus, (and I apologise if this comes across badly - its not meant to) a dissappointing photo is hardly a reason not to ring birds when the info gained is so hugely beneficial to conservation of both species and habitats!
2. I'm sure the ringers made an assessment of the probable condition of the birds before ringing them, followed by an accurate assement when the first bird was caught. If the birds were underweight or in poor condition all ringers I know would have stopped immediately. There's no reason to suspect these ringers would have done any different
3. On the last point, I'm sorry John but I dont think you'll ever convince me with the comparison of a 15stone bloke being stuck in the middle of Pennington Flash overnight being akin to what some birds might be suffering. Its an interesting picture, but not a good analogy
4. Are we forgetting that the countries where this species normally winter have 'average' winter temeratures of -6 or -7, so this type of weather is likely to cause less stress to this species than others I would have thought (although accepted that lack of food would have similar impacts).
5. I dont have the info to hand, but would imagine very few waxwings are ever ringed in this country due to a) they dont occur that regularly and b) when they do they are mobile and dont stay long in one spot. So, when an opportunity to potentially get some valuable data comes along its easy to understand why the opportunity was taken. I guess. (see point 2 above).
6. If we're going to start pointing fingers at people who 'disturb' birds then I suspect we'll all have to hold our hands up for some previous 'incident' and I bet the birds didnt benefit as much as they did from some having a little metal ring stuck on its leg
Its an emotive subject I guess. No one wants to see birds endangered though selfish, frivolous or unthoughtful behaviour. But perhaps we need to trust those who in theory know what they're doing.
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No one on their death bed ever said they wished they'd spent more time at work. http://bitsnbirds.blogspot.co.uk
Trouble is, that permit holding ringers have to refrain from entering in such debates as part of their permit
Ian, a tad unfair to encourage a debate on here when the main party cant even engage !
For what its worth my opinion is any dictate from the governing body would be extremely hard to police. As with most things in life we have to rely on an individuals personal boundaries of what is right and what is wrong. In my experience most birders get this line right but there will always be individuals whose actions the majority frown upon. Most of us have experienced going to see a major rarity that wasnt particularly showing well, the majority of birders present happy to be patient and wait for decent viewing whilst there is usually the odd one or two that seem to push it, either getting closer to the bird than many are comfortable with or suggesting flushing/tape luring/etc. I have to say in my experience the creepers are usually the photographers amongst us (and I have done my bit of that as well). In all aspects of birding Im sure there are the few that have their own personal agenda above that of the welfare of the birds.
I dont know any ringers personally but from what I do know I have huge respect for the dedication they show, none more so than Malcolm Calvert who appeared on the Born to be Wild programme recently (for his work with Reed Warblers at Rostherne). His dedication is inspirational.
In regard to Waxwings I suppose a hard winter, when we get an influx, is the only likely opportunity a ringer will have to catch and ring these birds. I, for one, am always amazed Waxwings seem to find their way to the same berry trees year after year. The trees adjacent to Stockport station spring to mind. Are these the same birds returning each year, is the knowledge something thats past from generation to generation, do the Manchester birds stay static or do they continuously move on looking for new food sources to be replaced by new birds travelling south, do they just all travel south or do they go south/north/east/west, do they always find their way back to their breeding grounds????? so many questions (prob just the way my mind works !!!!!!!!!!!). Whilst we will probably never definitively know the answer to these, and others, I do think that the data collected by ringing will assist us in our understanding.
I suppose at the end of the day we can only trust an individuals judgement and morality on issues such as this but the governing body does have a large responsibility to produce sound guidelines.
The fact is that the BTO is a non-profit-making trust and that money made from ringing sales goes back into ringing. No-one is making financial gain from encouraging ringing at any time of year.
I apologise for sounding heavy-handed in my response - I have enormous respect for John and his attitude to bird welfare.
Although I am currently using the BTO logo as my avatar (so that people get used to the new design) I do not post on this forum in any official BTO capacity and any views I express are entirely personal.
I do believe that an important issue has been raised and I encourage anyone who has concerns about this matter to raise them with the Ringing Unit at BTO HQ in Thetford.
e-mail: ringing@bto.org
Steve
No need for any appologies ,its better you give the correct information and oppinion,than people who read a post,but don't bother getting involved in the forum,in the end whether we are ringersbirders or photographers,we all in the end only need care for the welfare of the birds,and everything will be fine we are all on here for the same reasons. Have a nice xmas and keep posting has without a ballanced response,its hard to know what is right or wrong,and its a shame that ringers can't really answer thier own posts in defence of what they are doing,due to a ringers code that has to be adhered to. cheers John
p.s To the ringers -I was pleased 12 months ago when I photographed a Knot on the ribble that turned out to be 9 years old and had travelled almost everywere in North and north western Europe,even up to almost USSR.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 03:35:38 PM
The fact is that the BTO is a non-profit-making trust and that money made from ringing sales goes back into ringing. No-one is making financial gain from encouraging ringing at any time of year.
I apologise for sounding heavy-handed in my response - I have enormous respect for John and his attitude to bird welfare.
Although I am currently using the BTO logo as my avatar (so that people get used to the new design) I do not post on this forum in any official BTO capacity and any views I express are entirely personal.
I do believe that an important issue has been raised and I encourage anyone who has concerns about this matter to raise them with the Ringing Unit at BTO HQ in Thetford.
John's post is his personal opinion. The fact that anyone else thinks he is wrong is merely their personal opinion without producing factual information to the contrary.
Nothing in John's last post is libellous, such posts would be removed immediately (as it is I who would be prosecuted!), so let's not start throwing that word sound unnecessarily please.
What we have here is two opinions, for and against ringing. I am, as usual, impartial (just to point that out!). I can see the non-ringers point of view but currently not the ringers, not in this current weather anyway. Trouble is, that permit holding ringers have to refrain from entering in such debates as part of their permit. It's probably the right thing too as these sort of debates bring out passion and all too often anger, but a balanced view is needed on these things and in this instance I know too little about ringing to provide it personally.
I think the last point is most definitely wrong and probably libellous!
However, I do agree with many of your other points. I think Mike Passant was correct in saying that a blanket ban from BTO HQ would not be a good idea and that we should rely on ringers using their own judgement (conditions do vary considerably across the country). That said, some people are renowned for that lack of good judgement!
In addition, ringing is not the only problem. Disturbance of birds should be kept to a minimum whether you are ringing, taking photos (I'm not getting at you, John) or simply watching.
Steve
Steve Then I will remove that statement,as i only know that rings are purchased from the BTO,and don't really know if finantially it is an issue for the BTO,Please Steve also remove my comment from your post for me as i cannot from here.Anyone who knows me properly will tell you i spent many winters like this taking food to the end of the spit at Pennington voluntarily,for the benefit of the birds,and I wear my heart on my sleeve ,but at least i make my feelings felt ,others who read this may feel the same as me but never joinin gon comments on the forum,which they should to give a ballanced view ,and my comments sometimes come out different than I really meant them to sound,as I am not highly educated,and it takes me a while to try to put a point across properly. sorry for any affence from my posts. cheers John
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 10:36:41 AM
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 10:41:10 AM
I think the last point is most definitely wrong and probably libellous!
However, I do agree with many of your other points. I think Mike Passant was correct in saying that a blanket ban from BTO HQ would not be a good idea and that we should rely on ringers using their own judgement (conditions do vary considerably across the country). That said, some people are renowned for that lack of good judgement!
In addition, ringing is not the only problem. Disturbance of birds should be kept to a minimum whether you are ringing, taking photos (I'm not getting at you, John) or simply watching.
Steve
-- Edited by Steve Suttill on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 12:43:50 PM
In the end this is not about ringing as such its ringing in conditions where birds are starving and dying. if grabbing black headed gulls ,or snatching coots when they come for bread when they are starving after spending another night in -17c is ethical,id rather give up birding. Or holding down a starving swan while you ring it and all the other have falsly swam 200 yards thinking your feeding them.And the argument that the birds were at the correct weight doasn't come in to the equasion,I am 15 stone , and if I had just spent the night in the middle of penny flash in these conditions,i would probably be dead in the morning,and i definately wouldn't let someone ring me without a struggle. On a summers day catching migrants may be of some use to the science of birds,but going to the closest brake in the ice to catch 200 almost starving wildfowl,coots,swans is not
Last post on this subject for me-think I have put forward my stance on the matter. Now possitive thoughts looking forward to the xmas break after a very hard year at work
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 12:20:51 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that ringing birds introduces a stressful situation. How many rare birds over the last few years have subsequently done a bunk after being rung? I use rare birds because there is never a fuss kicked up if a common bird does a bunk after being rung.
I do see the value of ringing and would one day like to have a go myself, however I do think common sense should apply and ringers should leave birds alone in such harsh conditions. The stress introduced by ringing could lead to a bird leaving an established food supply or could make it more edgy and thus burn more fat. Maybe this is going over a fine line for a bird?
We need the science in order to conserve some species so it is a tough call. I would have thought the BTO would give a bit more direction though - maybe only ring birds where there is a specific conservation issue and only under certain circumstances? By placing the onus on the ringers to consider carefully what they do surely the BTO is sitting on the fence?
Re the rare bird point. If it was not for mist nets and heligolands there would be far fewer rare birds seen.
cheers jason
This was perhaps true years ago Jason but nowadays is hugely less so, to the point of being insignificant in the scheme of things. I have though, learned plenty from the research done by ringers for the purposes of identification, so on that score I have benifitted from it.
-Interesting stuff, and as usual good points on both sides of the "ringing fence."
Speaking from my own experience of 12 years as an active ringer (with both the Merseyside Ringing Group and then the South Manchester Ringing Group, the overriding code drilled into ringers in both groups was always the primacy of the welfare of birds, and the need to stay constantly abreast of best practice as outlined in the Ringers' Manual (to the extent of virtually knowing it by heart).
Obviously, netting and extracting/ handling birds is stressful; the whole point is that such stress should be as minimal and as temporary as practicable. (This is precisely why one undergoes years of supervision and gains competence only on the back of many thousands of extractions before being let loose with one's own mistnets).
I must admit that in those 12 years (1974 to 1986) I never experienced winter weather such as we have seen over recent weeks here in Durham for instance, but I really couldn't imagine even considering netting/ringing birds in such conditions.
Birds have been literally feeding out of our hands of late and it is simply a matter of common sense that were I still active, catching and ringing these birds wouldn't even enter my head. I should like to think that ringers generally have enough good sense and responsibility to exercise judgement according to their own local conditions, without the BTO issuing blanket "diktats" as to when they should furl their nets or otherwise.
People have varying opinions concerning ringing (and why not indeed), but if you have a ringing scheme at all, it should be implemented on the basis of "excellence" and I feel that in my day the BTO did a hell of a good job, and I trust, continues to do so. As for birds "doing a bunk" after being ringed; obviously being handled is bound to be disruptive, some birds go (they probably would anyway) and others don't, but it is all too easy perhaps to automatically blame ringers for sending a vagrant "prematurely"on its way, though obviously this must sometimes be the case; (but how do you prove how long a rarity will/should stay?) Most migrant "mega rarities" by their nature tend to be vagrants and therefore have no obvious reason to stay for long, though from time to time some do become temporarily "resident." (I believe it is the case now that newly discovered rarities are only ringed on the basis of specific permission being granted, but this is only what I have been told, so I stand possibly to be corrected on this point).
As I have stated before, the Adswood Tip Little Bunting of April 1983 was ringed on the day of its discovery, yet stayed for over a week, enabling some 350 birders to enjoy it, and a certain famous Bunting from Pennington stayed for much longer.....
A Happy Christmas and a Birdy 2011 to All,
All the Best,
Mike Passant
__________________
Challenges are inevitable, but failure is optional.
There is no doubt in my mind that ringing birds introduces a stressful situation. How many rare birds over the last few years have subsequently done a bunk after being rung? I use rare birds because there is never a fuss kicked up if a common bird does a bunk after being rung.
I do see the value of ringing and would one day like to have a go myself, however I do think common sense should apply and ringers should leave birds alone in such harsh conditions. The stress introduced by ringing could lead to a bird leaving an established food supply or could make it more edgy and thus burn more fat. Maybe this is going over a fine line for a bird?
We need the science in order to conserve some species so it is a tough call. I would have thought the BTO would give a bit more direction though - maybe only ring birds where there is a specific conservation issue and only under certain circumstances? By placing the onus on the ringers to consider carefully what they do surely the BTO is sitting on the fence?
Re the rare bird point. If it was not for mist nets and heligolands there would be far fewer rare birds seen.
There is no doubt in my mind that ringing birds introduces a stressful situation. How many rare birds over the last few years have subsequently done a bunk after being rung? I use rare birds because there is never a fuss kicked up if a common bird does a bunk after being rung.
I do see the value of ringing and would one day like to have a go myself, however I do think common sense should apply and ringers should leave birds alone in such harsh conditions. The stress introduced by ringing could lead to a bird leaving an established food supply or could make it more edgy and thus burn more fat. Maybe this is going over a fine line for a bird?
We need the science in order to conserve some species so it is a tough call. I would have thought the BTO would give a bit more direction though - maybe only ring birds where there is a specific conservation issue and only under certain circumstances? By placing the onus on the ringers to consider carefully what they do surely the BTO is sitting on the fence?
Interesting to hear peoples views on ringing in the current weather, or not as the case may be. As a new trainee i am chomping at the bit to trap, extract, process and release all birds which we catch in the mist nets but the current cold snap does take precedent over the ringing. Although we have been ringing over the last few weeks the number of nets used has been greatly reduced with the majority of birds being caught around a feeding station. Through catching and weighing the birds it helps to see what effect if any the current cold snap has, and i am pleased to say that all birds processed over the last 3 weeks have had an average fat score for the time of year. I know there are anti-ringers out there and i can see their point to a certain degree but the majority of ringers are also birders, much the same as bird photographers are, this is just another angle to our wonderful hobby. I was never interested in ringing until i saw what went on first hand day in day out and i was gripped, what a fantastic opportunity to get hands on exprerince on all kinds of birds. I am not a great reader and dont really digest information from text or images, so my topography left a lot to be desired. But through ringing i can gain hands on tuition and am (getting) comfortable now with greater coverts, primary coverts and tertials, age and sex etc, something which i can only see as a bonus to birding in the field. Get yourself along to a ringing demonstration sometime you never know it may convert a few.
It should also perhaps be pointed out that ringing is being carried out as 'normal' (no doubt with some consideration to the bird's welfare such as minimising time spent in the mist nests etc) across the UK currently.
Below is the current advise from the BTO in their (new look) website:
Although the freezing conditions have eased in some places there is a statutory suspension of wildfowling in Scotland and Northern Ireland. There is also a call for continued voluntary restraint in England and Wales as further severe weather is forecast. When it is cold we also need to minimise other disturbance, including birdwatching. It is important to continue with surveys such as WeBS and the Atlas, but participants should avoid disturbing birds wherever possible.
I had cause to make a similar query to the BTO Ringing Unit a few weeks ago. Here is an edited version of the reply I received:
As you may know, after a 7 'freezing days' there is a call for voluntary restraint from wildfowling and we contact all ringers to inform them and ask that they consider all ringing carefully and modify their ringing activities accordingly. After 14 'freezing days' there may be a statutory suspension of wildfowling and we then also suspend the ringing of waterfowl.
All ringers are considering carefully what they are doing based on both the local weather conditions and the condition of the birds. We feel that it is appropriate for all ringers to make this decision as they are best placed to judge the local conditions and the condition of the birds and to modify their ringing accordingly.
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Tuesday 21st of December 2010 03:15:32 PM
I totally agree with you John,there is no doubt ringing causes stress to birds,I personally think any ringers trapping birds in this weather should be ashamed of themselves,they obviously have NO concern for the welfare of the birds at all.
Then its just my opinion that its not right to stress birds in this weather,but then again I am mostly anti ringing anyway,so my thoughts are always that birds shouldn't have rings attached expecially the multiple rings on each leg you see sometimes,but in the long run it can be interesting to see where some waders etc come from. But in weather like this its my opinion that all ringing should cease until it is of no detriment to the birds involved. Also as a photographer of birds, it is always a let down when you get a superb picture only to find 3 rings on each leg. As always its only a personal oppinion and not for anyone else to worry about,as im sure the ringers think what they are doing is correct and propper. And this is not really the correct forum to bring these things up ,but Kanes post promted my reply.
Kane Brides wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ian,
the Waxwings have been in Atherton since Saturday, as far as I know. I got woke up by them calling outside my bedroom window!! So I made a makeshift apple tree in the garden & have had them coming into feed!! We counted 146 this morning. Good number have been trapped & ringed.
Great im sure when the Waxwings are strugling for food in this weather ,they really appreciate being caught and rung,if the cold doasn't kill em the stress probably will. I thought the BTO put out a notice asking people not to disturb birds in this weather due to the stress involved in finding foodI assume ringers are an exception to this rule
This thread was originally started on the sightings section and I have moved it here for a more fuller discussion should it receive or require one. It is an interesting point and I'm sure both sides (ringers and 'non-ringers') have their opinion to which point I felt it worth giving it's own thread. Let's just make sure we keep it a fair discussion and attempt to keep our emotions out of it!
The post below was originally posted by Kane Brides, a qualified ringer.
Hi Ian,
the Waxwings have been in Atherton since Saturday, as far as I know. I got woke up by them calling outside my bedroom window!! So I made a makeshift apple tree in the garden & have had them coming into feed!! We counted 146 this morning. Good number have been trapped & ringed.
, you're a ringer (well, would be as and when I give you're measuring gear back 
) so stick to that point of view. You and you're barbed wire, electrified nets and new-fangled lead weighted, full length leg caliper rings 
