Yes, I've heard of them (just about!) - it wa just the context of Jim's post that made me think the acronym meant something else! Sorry for the confusion.
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Judith Smith
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Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
personal digital assistant (PDA), also known as a palmtop computer, is a mobile device that functions as a personal information manager. Current PDAs often have the ability to connect to the Internet. A PDA has an electronic visual display, enabling it to include a web browser, but some newer models also have audio capabilities, enabling them to be used as mobile phones or portable media players. Many PDAs can access the Internet, intranets or extranets via Wi-Fi or Wireless Wide Area Networks. Many PDAs employ touchscreen technology.
Hi Judith. Mark Widdop. Not sure what department as they are all over the place. Think its parks and leisure. His office is Green Lane Heywood. Details and a remarks area to view your concerns can be found on the RMBC website if thats easier. Cheers Jim.
Hi Jim - sorry about the Rochdale Observer getting it all wrong; that's the trouble with local rags these days, they don't take the trouble they used to, and normally I make sure I give them copy in writing having suffered too often myself (the honourable exception being the MEN which is pretty good) - they weren't prepared to wait till they could get hold of you, either. Who is Mr Widdup and what are his initials, if we are going to write to him? What is a PDA?
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Judith Smith
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Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
Well the letter to the observer did a lot of good except to miss quote, get my title wrong and to cause me some grief with the Staff. It read as though I spoke to the Observer which I didn't, needless to say I was furious when I read it. Been told this morning that the centre will be remaining but there will be a limited ranger staff, one at best in the area working on a need to do basis via PDA. The centre will not be running events or any education (as per staff this morning). So one good thing is that it will remain there for the odd twitch. So perhaps now there will be someone out there who can tell me how we are going to maintain the site for anything more than common lbj's. You might gather that I am quite passionate about this site. So I am going to task every birder who reads this forum to get up and don't grab your Binoculars for a change get a pen and write to Mr Widdop at RMBC protesting at this action. We are not the best birding sight here but The Staff here have delivered a second to none Education programme and an award winning junior helpers club, enthusing kids to enjoy the countryside. It will cease as we know it and while you are doing it remember that the staff are now facing redundancy after many years, maybe you are in the same position as them, if so you know how it feels. There will be no policing of the site so there will be the local scumbags, the ignorant and ill informed marching all over the remains of the reserve.
-- Edited by Jim Taylor on Monday 6th of December 2010 01:36:51 PM
-- Edited by Jim Taylor on Monday 6th of December 2010 01:40:30 PM
A letter has now been sent to the Rochdale Observer outlining the present poor condition of HL as regards nature conservation, from Simon Hitchen, Jim Taylor and me.
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Judith Smith
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Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
Just a slight off tangent to this thread, I was just thinking, the Pied-billed Grebe has created a lot of attention, lots of birders have been to see it, tick , Photograph it etc, now its slowly been forgotten A couple of birders are hoping it will stay around this weekend so they can catch up with it, good luck with that, I am sure it will stay,
So who will be the last person to see it and where will it go, I often wonder about that, lots of birders get praise for finding a rare bird, and it creates a twitch, but what about the last person, both myself and Andy Makin watched the Gannet fly off, so will a GM birder see the Grebe go, or will the next madman doing a year list get it on the January 1st 2011 list
Cheers Jason. The boom that was in place was designed to withstand the North sea, The lake destroyed it. I'm looking at early retirement so that may give me the time to get stuck in and organise a serious look at the problems and how we may solve them. As for a wire rope affair would go down well with the rowers and windsurfers although it may solve one problem and feed the fish at the same time. LOL. I think that we need to wait a little as I feel the outcome is not to far away.Once we know exactly what the future here is we can build a plan to suit.
on the machinery front have you considered the power of advertising.
approach your local plant hire companies. and get a hoarding authorised by the council.
you would also need to get a local sign writing company on board.
call it the hollingworth lake environmental partnership.
have a list of partnership members these being the companies who contribute, they all get a spot on the hoarding with company logo.
contribution to an environmental scheme is all good publicity, which will also go in the observer, they won't be hard to get on side local news is their lifeblood.
as for a boom wire rope, pipe lagging, and lots of bright yellow electrical tape mate. will last a few years. with a bit of luck it would need retaping in 2 years.
though organising it would take a lot of your time.
just a couple of thoughts on how you might get some much needed progress without too much money
Thanks Jim for explaining all the problems that Hollingworth Lake faces, so succinctly (guess you are on night shift at the moment from the timings of your posts). I guess we'll just have to wait and see if FoHL gets the contract.
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Judith Smith
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Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
It is more than likely that the visitor centre will be managed by another party but not sure about funding staffing etc. There has been interest shown by three groups but till now I have no further information as to who when or how. I think we could look at this as being a fresh start for Rochdale and Hollingworth lake if the management structure changes as I think it will. One thing for sure there will be little or no cash but there is much to do that would cost little or nothing if we had enough interest. I have lots of plans it it falls into the hands of The friends ( big if ) and will be contacting everyone involved in wildlife with in the borough for their views which ever way it falls. For now its a waiting game so I will post any news I get onto this forum. Good birding just off to see if I can find some Waxwings at the Lake. Best wishes Jim Taylor(Board of directors and trustee) Association of friend of Hollingworth lake. ( must be mad )
The ranger service have cleared a lot of willow from the reserve and the moat around has been reinstated. Work party days organised and advertised with very little response ( hard work) This may be hard for some to understand, but to make an impact on the deterioration we need some major intervention. Huge machines to remove the excess build up of land and the removal of silt to get the depth back into the reserve, the boom, hundreds maybe thousands of pounds. the moat needs to be excavated to allow the return of the water voles new reed beds to bring back sedge and reed warblers. Even then we would need constant funding to ensure it does not again go back to its present state. I could go on. Anything we can do as volunteers with no professional back up is minimal if not a waste of time and labour. We could make the best of what there is of course and it is still home to many creatures but i fear it will never be like it was. I don't know what the future holds but you can be assured that If something becomes available I will jump on it. The next twelve months will be interesting, we will see what the changes in services will bring. I am sure of one thing and that is the local authority do not give a hoot to what happens to the wildlife or the area as a whole or if they do they are not showing it. Hollingworth lake should be Rochdale's centre for all things wildlife, a place were the towns enthusiasts could meet to use the facilities that it offers or just for a coffee before setting off birding or other nature watching trips. It could be an evening venue for meeting and talks and of course a centre of education for our children. It has a great role to play for Rochdale but we need to convince the right people. Jim Taylor
h/lake underwent drastic alteration a few years before I became involved in 87. at that time large numbers of wildfowl roosted there, coot numbers were in the hundreds and G c grebes successfully bred un disturbed by the then constant water levels and the absence of Mink. So what has changed since then. Lets leave the management out for a mo as they only work to the budgets permitted and that is non at all. The popularity of water sports has increased dramatically in recent years due to the keep fit cultures and the need of the water sport side to make money to survive increases in running costs etc The opening up of the canal systems once again meant that 14m gallons a day ( i may be corrected) is licensed to be removed causing dramatic fluctuation in levels combined with dry spells at crucial times. The arrival of Mink and so on. As you all know these reserves do not look after themselves and the lack of maintenance led to the loss of reed to grass as the willow scrub encroached and dried out the wetland areas. The dry land has now increased and is working its way out into the lake, this is visible by standing at the old boom anchor point and looking across to the other there is now land where there was once water. Silting up is also taking place in the area where the water feeds into the reserve. That may be able to be utilised for new reed bed before it dries out. So the issues are big and resources stretched to snapping point with the down scaling of Ranger services. There is a Friends of group who have done some stirling work recently but they can only source grant monies for certain projects were it is available and they are all but gone. We have the plans for a new bird hide but we are struggling to raise the second part of the 10 thousand pound cost and have just had another fund application turned down. Any one got a spare 5 grand?
-- Edited by batboy on Wednesday 17th of November 2010 12:05:24 AM
There is a Friends of Hollingworth Lake, in which Jim Taylor (former chair of the Bury & Rochdale RSPB, now defunct) is a leading light. I will copy your suggestions to him. Also I have suggested that the subject be on the agenda of the Oldham & Rochdale NAture Conservation Group. This hasn't met for a while, but the new Biodiversity Officer for Oldham, Jane Downall, is hoping to resurrect it.
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Judith Smith
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Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
I'm informed the Lake is owned by Rochdale MBC, they purchased it for a nominal fee from UU some time ago. The issue with the boom may not be the capital cost but rather who would accept liability for issues such as maintenance or if it became loose and caused damage. I assume the problem with boats entering the reserve area is not those from the sailing club but ones hired to the public from the Activities Centre, if so could it not be challenged with the Link4Life team here that they must give clear guidance, to the hiree, on what areas are available and what are off-limits (I appreciate there will always be the idiot element who will disregard!!)
General thoughts that may or may not be relevant: i) Was/has anyody tried collection donations during the twitch ii) Has anybody tried collecting a petition iii) Is there a friends group/local group willing to hand out leaflets/talk to the maurading boat hirers - could such leaflets be made available in the VC iv) Has anybody conducted a visitor survey to get a feel for what the current users want and how they value the wildlife on/around the lake v) Is the drafted letter for use by residents to send to the council - if enough went how could they ignore it vi) Does anybody know any sympathetic journalists vii) Is there any evidence of bird numbers/species during the times of the old boom viii) how much would the boom cost to buy and maintain
A lot can/could be achieved with the co-ordinated efforts of volunteers, birders and the public surely?
I'm informed the Lake is owned by Rochdale MBC, they purchased it for a nominal fee from UU some time ago. The issue with the boom may not be the capital cost but rather who would accept liability for issues such as maintenance or if it became loose and caused damage. I assume the problem with boats entering the reserve area is not those from the sailing club but ones hired to the public from the Activities Centre, if so could it not be challenged with the Link4Life team here that they must give clear guidance, to the hiree, on what areas are available and what are off-limits (I appreciate there will always be the idiot element who will disregard!!)
I'm afraid that in the present economic climate, out of all the 10 Greater Manchester Council's, Rochdale is in by far the worst state financially at the moment, so talk of hundreds of job losses & scaling down of vital services is probably alot higher on the agenda than the expense of a boom at Hollingworth Lake.
Having birded in Surrey quite a bit Judith, their situation is not really different to ours. Their gravel pits are virtually all private and solely for the use of watersports and are one of the most frustrating places I've ever birded as you can barely even get to see on most of them! The large reservoirs are either private or have limited access to permit holders or to certain sections where on weekends it's as busy as Blackpool prom!
Most members of the public think there's loads of wildlife about to be honest as they see Robins and the likes as they walk around. They can't appreciate the fuller picture because they have no concept of it and that's not their fault. Education is part of the key and birders can surely get involved in that if they care sufficiently and have a little bit of imagination. As for the councils etc, whilst budget cuts are going to have a massive impact, surely some work is cheap if not free, though the use of voluntary workers is severely handicapped by health and safety regulations no doubt. That said, if enough birders were willing then that would have some sway I would have thought.
A letter is being drafted, in conjunction with the Friends of Hollingworth Lake and Simon. However, the economic situation means that Rochdale MBC is apparently going to lose 7 of its 11 rangers, so the future of the visitor centre and any funding for (eg) a new hide, boom replacement is uncertain. Simon rightly feels that the nature reserve water area is too small to attract wildfowl into it - and sometimes it is just mud, depending on the amount of water needed to keep the Rochdale Canal open. Some habitat work done several years ago now reduced the amount of open water in the NR and has had a negative effect. It is difficult to know who actually owns the lake, or has responsibility for it. It is a feeder reservoir for the canal which suggests BW. But UU is certainly involved somewhere, and the EA will have an interest as the water drains off into the Ealees Brook. Where Rochdale MBC comes in is not clear, but they seem to be able to control what goes on on the lake. Its status was recently reduced by GMEU from a Grade A SBI to Grade B (and it hardly deserves that in bird usage terms) - this is a black mark against Rochdale MBC as the demotion is entirely due to human disturbance. It should be being managed so that boating is confined to certain hours and within defined buoys, partuclarly rowing which is the major disturbance. Other places manage to do this, so why not Hollingworth Lake? There just doesn't seem to be enough pressure from the Rochdale public on councillors and those who can influence events there, for improvements that would benefit wildlife. But the Rochdale residents have never seen wildlife there, in recent memory, so what they've never had they don't miss. I can't imagine such a situation existing if this was , say, Surrey - there would be a public outcry.
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Judith Smith
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Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
Sorry about the Theroux bit, i thought you had to put a name on that didn't identify you like other sites. Ian Mckerchar has informed me that Martin Griffiths and myself ( Philip Taylor) will be put down as the finders. I can't believe a bus load of mainly pensioners (like myself) could be the cause of so much excitement in finding the grebe. I have watched the BBC article on the t'internet. Thanks Ian.
When I was in my yoof, I spent many days at Hollingworth Lake and I got some great wildfowl there. But in those days, there was a boom accross the lake to stop boats and any other floating disturbance away.
It surely cant cost that much for a new boom, especially as parking revenue will be very high this week!
Perhaps a letter to the council with this in mind?
The problem with Elton Resr is that the W side (ie not the dam side) where the waders tend to be and also the dogwalkers, is owned by Wilton Estates which I understand is now owned by Peel Holdings. About 10 years the owners of Old Hall Farm indicated that they might be willing to consider some habitat work on the marsh below the dam, where the outlet stream runs. Bury MBC did pay for a consultant to draw up some plans that would have made it more bird-friendly. But then the owners at OH Farm withdrew their interest. That's how I understand it anyway. Probably agricultural usage changed.
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Judith Smith
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Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
You could say the same about elton res that resides in wanton neglect. Bury's Country Park is Burrs. The main use with good effect is not so much nature as sports for youths, and they do this very well. Elton survives with occasional burnt out cars, mud, a derelict nightclub, and a huge pile of old sofas, bust beds, and wood, that occasionally conspires into a bonfire near the sailing club. Granted its owned by British Waterways as is the canal but with a little imagination and effort a useful asset could be created to the benefit of all users birders, fishers, sailors, and dog walkers. Bury did do this with the parks in Prestwich to great effect combining several parks (Prestwich Clough, Mere Clough, Phillips Park, water dale and drinkeater park)but I wont be holding my breath for elton.
Sounds a good idea Judith - Rochdale is definitely the poor relation when it comes to nature conservation. Many birders visiting the Lake to see the grebe will probably be surprised to see the lack of any other wildfowl on the nature reserve - even a Coot is a rarity here. This is not just due to the elevation oop here in the hills - I remember twenty years ago there used to be up to 100 Coot here as well as a regular wintering population of tufties, pochards etc but now these are all just uncommon passage visitors and they barely get chance to alight before they are scared off by boats. It's not all bad as a lot of good habitat work has improved the site for woodland birds, but the amount of boating disturbance is beyond a joke with rowing boats being present pre- dawn on most days scaring off any roosting birds on the open water and rowing right into the nature reserve area near Rakewood Road. I used to do a lot of birding at Pugneys in West Yorkshire and here they were much more sympathetic to keeping both boaties and birders happy - having areas cordoned off for wildlife and having a 'clearwater' period before 10 and then again an hour before dusk when boats were not allowed on the water. I think it is too much to hope for such a system at the Lake but it is so demoralising trying to keep your enthusiasm going birding here with this level of disturbance. Records of Collared Pratincole, Black-winged Stilt and now Pied-billed Grebe show that it can produce good birds occasionally but it could be so much better if it was managed in a more sympathetic way for wildlife rather than just being a glorified boating lake. And virtually nothing is able to breed at the nature reserve due to the high level of Mink which nobody seems to want to address - maybe if a Mink eats the Pied-billed Grebe then something might get done about this. Anyway rant over....for now.
I am hoping that we can raise the birding profile of Hollingworth Lake with Rochdale council as a result of this grebe. For several years recently (at least 10!) birders have been trying to get a boom laid across the entrance to the nature reserve pool, as there are regular encroachments by rowing boats. In fact, anything that lands on the lake eg migrant duck - soon departs due to disturbance at all times of the day (even very early morning) by boats of all kinds. I think it's time Rochdale council realised the value of the lake as a migration stopover and recognised the monetary contribution of birdwatchers - I would estimate several hundred visited today alone, and most of those paid £1 in the car park. (That's not counting use of the cafe, bookshop etc - in fact the site has excellent visitor facilities which Wigan, for one, could well learn from, when you compare it with Pennington Flash, for example.)
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Judith Smith
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Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
A couple of birders are hoping it will stay around this weekend so they can catch up with it, good luck with that, I am sure it will stay,