On a rather different note, but equally important I notice that the lovely Mallard, a widespread bird throughout Europe, has not been subject to the same protection as the WH Duck. Certainly, the Mallard is not under threat from extinction locally, nationally or worldwide, but you will know as much as I do that a days birding anywhere on this continent near water rarely goes by without noticing a speckled, half white, funny necked or other non-pure individual. The more you travel the more birds you see and the more you notice that the pure bred Mallard is less and less common. I have observed this all over Europe from the Norway to Spain that the Mallard has been in-bred with white farm ducks and indian runner ducks all over the place. You only have to pop in to your local park where ever it may be in Greater Manchester and you will find those funny looking ones amoungst the flock. My reason to raise this is that surely if species thoroughbreeds are the main reason for culling then why on earth has somebody not brought this up and why are the RSPB, DEFRA and other organisations thinking about this to the same level as the White-headed Ducks?? Could it be that you don't get to go to Spain to 'observe' them, or that the Mallard is not a 'valuable' species??p>
Don't want to stir up the hornets nest (again) but wanted to comment on the mallard situation.
You will of course have noticed that the mallard has been moved from the green list to the amber list thus indicating that its declne is being looked at more closely then many think. It is the wintering non-breeding populaions that has been declining for some time.
The long term decline has been subject to investigation for some time ... a north/eastward shift ahs been suggested akin to the shift in waders by Maclean et al (2008). Eastern European pops appear to be stable or increasing.
However, the breeding population is apparantely increasing (Baillie et al 2010).
NB Info taken from WeBS report 2008/2009
I for one champion the mallard for a number of reasons - appeal to children, familiarity, adaptability etc and it is often overlooked/ignored
but
Given your figures for mate choice with the WHD then the mallard with up to 127000 UK breeding pairs is definately not at risk from the "odd hybrid".
yes, apologies for mentioning one in a blog, even if disguised, not intentional, just like the little things really. Thanks also for PM related to the subject, very interesting.
I'm normally the last person to support suppression, but given that the possibility for reporting a Ruddy Duck sighting is likely to be not be "disturbance" but cold-blooded murder by so-called environmentalists and wildlife trusts, I keep quiet about any I find. Perhaps Ian should remove any references to Ruddy Ducks much like the reported sightings of Little Ringed Plover in the breeding season?
Not wanting to open old wounds or anything like that but I was thinking about the various arguments, points of view and statistics that have been put across on this thread and wondered about several things concerning the culling of Ruddy Ducks, the protection of the White-headed Duck and the benefits or dis-benefits of the opposing sides viewpoints.
I could happily sit on either side of the argument about the cull, on the one hand I recognise the importance of conserving a species or sub-species, but I could quite happily sit on the opposing side and understand the love of the stifftails over here, baulk at the huge cost of the operation and the potential damage to other birds' activities on the water bodies exposed to shooting etc.
So, anyway, without wanting to waffle too much I will open my point out.
The principle reason for the decline of the White-headed Duck was no doubt the indesciminate shooting of birds throughout Spain and its former haunts, which ultimetely led to the eradication of the bird from most of its former range. The protection of the bird from shooting and the creation of many reserves that now house them seems to have worked as well as expected and I'm sure that will continue, particularly as reintroductions are taking place across France, Corsica and other areas where they formerly existed. A success story no doubt.
The once limited population of western White-headed Ducks found mainly in Spain was indeed under threat and it was essential that certain conservation measures were put in place to save the species. However, the main threat from Ruddies was that so few White-heads were around that cross-breeding with Ruddies was an attractive option with no/few other mating partners around. However, with the White-heads now re-establishing themselves in good numbers they are not limited to breeding partners and are more likely to opt for like-like breeding rather than cross-breeding.
From this point of view I can see no real threat from the Ruddy Duck to the population of this lovely bird in the long term, although I believe that the culling may have prevented the cross breeding to a large degree in the early years of population increase. But once the population reaches 15,000 to 20,000 individuals the odd hybrid will surely not be of concern for the species as the critical genetics will have been safeguarded and the likelyhood of the hybrid will reduce.
On a rather different note, but equally important I notice that the lovely Mallard, a widespread bird throughout Europe, has not been subject to the same protection as the WH Duck. Certainly, the Mallard is not under threat from extinction locally, nationally or worldwide, but you will know as much as I do that a days birding anywhere on this continent near water rarely goes by without noticing a speckled, half white, funny necked or other non-pure individual. The more you travel the more birds you see and the more you notice that the pure bred Mallard is less and less common. I have observed this all over Europe from the Norway to Spain that the Mallard has been in-bred with white farm ducks and indian runner ducks all over the place. You only have to pop in to your local park where ever it may be in Greater Manchester and you will find those funny looking ones amoungst the flock. My reason to raise this is that surely if species thoroughbreeds are the main reason for culling then why on earth has somebody not brought this up and why are the RSPB, DEFRA and other organisations thinking about this to the same level as the White-headed Ducks?? Could it be that you don't get to go to Spain to 'observe' them, or that the Mallard is not a 'valuable' species??
Anyway, thought I'd add something to the whole debate......................
Paul Dont try to justfy killing or shooting any birds,and if you think that the shooters that defra hire give a damn about shooting any other bird that just may be in with the ruddys you are living in cloud cuckoo land. I was at haughton green when they shot 80 ruddys a few years back and I have no proof ,but there was a black necked grebe present all winter until after the cull,and many other birds that were also mixed in dissapeared overnight,you may say that they flew away,but you tell me that these shooters,who make vast ammounts of money for killing the ruddys,can tell a winter plumage black necked grebe that surfaces in the middle of 80 ruddy ducks that are being bombarded with pellets And I don't know if you have any connection with the rspb,but id guess so,or you may just feel that it is justified,I don't know,but killing the ruddy ducks is just a way of the rspb and wilfowl trust gaining more money,and thats the reason why the majority of birders no longer report Ruddy ducks to anyone,so truthfully the wildfowl trust have not got a clue how many there are left.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 11th of August 2010 04:32:35 PM
John,
I am doing several things a) giving readers the counter argument in the way that all discussion should be
b) trying to make the point that the conservation of the WHD is what the RSPB, WWT and others support. If there were other options that were as effective do you think that conservation bodies would risk alienating a certain proportion of its audience by taking up what can be a saddening event such as this cull?
c) the conservation bodies do not carry out any of the shooting - this is done by DEFRA and if you have any suspicion and evidence then is that not something you must be able to report to the police?
In addition to the cull The Governments intention is adopting measures to restrict keeping and trading of ruddy ducks, to prevent further escapes i.e. trying to prevent us from ending up in this situation again.
Q) - How are the RSPB and WWT making money from these activities?
The eradication programme is being carried out by the Central Science Laboratory, under contract to Defra and with co-funding from LIFE-Nature.
One more point - the RSPB estimates that the UK is responsible for 32 species that are under threat from non-native wildlife - would you spend the £16 million per year(est) to prevent these extinctions??? Its a lot of money, indeed 3 x more than has been spent on the subject matter topic but surely we cannot allow these species to be lost because we sat back and did nothing?
In this particular case it would involve the removal of non-native mammalian predators from the UK Overseas Territories (UKOTs) and I'm guessing that the best way of doing this is to destroy the predators?
I can only empaphise with you on what you've witnessed and it must be specifically hard given your connections with the ruddy duck and how they got you into birding but many people feel that this must go ahead and decisions have already been made and progress has already been made. Maybe some parallels can be drawn with these examples
- Many birders were inspired and fascinated by nest finding and egg collecting but don't do it any more, times have changed, it has been proven that this was not the best thing for biodiversity and population numbers and hence became outlawed and unfashionble.
- I grew up being inspired by certain individuals on my council estate and aspired to be like them but then I found out that what they were doing was not big nor clever so I broke ties with them and moved on.
I know I may not change your mind John but I think it is only fair to discuss points you make on this FORUM - now you must agree with that???
Agree you have your views,I have mine. you either support culling of ruddy ducks or not in the end I don't ,you do,fine by me.
Paul Dont try to justfy killing or shooting any birds,and if you think that the shooters that defra hire give a damn about shooting any other bird that just may be in with the ruddys you are living in cloud cuckoo land. I was at haughton green when they shot 80 ruddys a few years back and I have no proof ,but there was a black necked grebe present all winter until after the cull,and many other birds that were also mixed in dissapeared overnight,you may say that they flew away,but you tell me that these shooters,who make vast ammounts of money for killing the ruddys,can tell a winter plumage black necked grebe that surfaces in the middle of 80 ruddy ducks that are being bombarded with pellets And I don't know if you have any connection with the rspb,but id guess so,or you may just feel that it is justified,I don't know,but killing the ruddy ducks is just a way of the rspb and wilfowl trust gaining more money,and thats the reason why the majority of birders no longer report Ruddy ducks to anyone,so truthfully the wildfowl trust have not got a clue how many there are left.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 11th of August 2010 04:32:35 PM
John,
I am doing several things a) giving readers the counter argument in the way that all discussion should be
b) trying to make the point that the conservation of the WHD is what the RSPB, WWT and others support. If there were other options that were as effective do you think that conservation bodies would risk alienating a certain proportion of its audience by taking up what can be a saddening event such as this cull?
c) the conservation bodies do not carry out any of the shooting - this is done by DEFRA and if you have any suspicion and evidence then is that not something you must be able to report to the police?
In addition to the cull The Governments intention is adopting measures to restrict keeping and trading of ruddy ducks, to prevent further escapes i.e. trying to prevent us from ending up in this situation again.
Q) - How are the RSPB and WWT making money from these activities?
The eradication programme is being carried out by the Central Science Laboratory, under contract to Defra and with co-funding from LIFE-Nature.
One more point - the RSPB estimates that the UK is responsible for 32 species that are under threat from non-native wildlife - would you spend the £16 million per year(est) to prevent these extinctions??? Its a lot of money, indeed 3 x more than has been spent on the subject matter topic but surely we cannot allow these species to be lost because we sat back and did nothing?
In this particular case it would involve the removal of non-native mammalian predators from the UK Overseas Territories (UKOTs) and I'm guessing that the best way of doing this is to destroy the predators?
I can only empaphise with you on what you've witnessed and it must be specifically hard given your connections with the ruddy duck and how they got you into birding but many people feel that this must go ahead and decisions have already been made and progress has already been made. Maybe some parallels can be drawn with these examples
- Many birders were inspired and fascinated by nest finding and egg collecting but don't do it any more, times have changed, it has been proven that this was not the best thing for biodiversity and population numbers and hence became outlawed and unfashionble.
- I grew up being inspired by certain individuals on my council estate and aspired to be like them but then I found out that what they were doing was not big nor clever so I broke ties with them and moved on.
I know I may not change your mind John but I think it is only fair to discuss points you make on this FORUM - now you must agree with that???
For details on the RSPB's standpoint and reasons behind see http://www.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/policy/species/nonnative/ruddyducks.asp
Info found on the net ...
Progress in Europe
A second European workshop was held in Nantes in north-western France in November 2008. This was attended by representatives from France, the Netherlands, Spain and the UK. Information on ruddy duck numbers in Belgium and Germany was also made available to the workshop.
It appears that the UK, France and the Netherlands are the only countries with self-sustaining populations.
Ruddy ducks remain rare in Belgium, Germany and Ireland, and numbers in these countries are probably less than three breeding pairs in each.
Ruddy duck numbers in France have been slowly increasing, and in winter 2007/08 the population was estimated to be around 350 birds. It is thought that there are between 40 and 60 breeding pairs. The French authorities have been carrying out control for several years but now recognise that the effectiveness of their control programme must be increased if eradication is to be achieved.
To date there has been no control of ruddy ducks in the Netherlands, although peak numbers there have declined in two of the last three winters, from 97 in winter 2005/06 to 60 in winter 2008/09. This could suggest possible movement of birds between the Netherlands and the UK. However, the breeding population in the Netherlands has increased in recent years, and was estimated at 22 pairs in 2008. The Dutch Government has recognised the need to eradicate ruddy ducks in the Netherlands and is currently making the necessary administrative changes which will allow control.
In Spain the control programme is ongoing and six ruddy ducks were seen in Spain in 2008, all of which were culled.
No hybrids were reported in Spain in 2008.
Interesting reading ... So France do have a programme of culling and admit they need to greater effectiveness, Dutch will soon be implimenting one whilst Germany has less than 3 breeding pairs meaning that surely one of the largest threats to the WH Duck comes from the UK population as it was - 95% of European pop at beginning of project?
Also "Between 7 and 27 per annum over the past 10 years and only 2 since Jan 2009." surely one bird is too many if it was sucessful in diluting the gene pool by hybridising?
"The cull has been extended into 2011 within DEFRA's current budget, but when it ends Ruddy Ducks will migrate back into Britain from the continent and it will all be what we thought in the first place. A total waste of time." vs "could it suggest that Ruddy Ducks have probably lost their migratory instinct?" do we have two who are opposed to culling contradicting each other?
International conservation organisations and European governments believe that hybridisation poses a very serious threat to the survival of the white-headed duck - I know its good to question but can all these conservation organisiation be as far wrong as some make out?
And ok it may have cost a lot of money but what price can you put on the conservation of a species and on righting our past wrongs?
And isn't it nice to see the positive results from Spain - the population of Iberian White-headed Ducks goes from strength to strength, with hopefully more than 4,000 individuals to be found at the end of this current breeding season - surely good news that the species is recovering as The white-headed duck is a symbol of successful conservation in Spain, in the same way that the red kite is in the UK. If it was to disappear then a key argument used in achieving protection of wetland habitats and control of hunting would vanish. This could have serious consequences for these wetlands, their flora and fauna and for future conservation initiatives.
I'll leave you with Another bit of internet research which revealed this quote
"Well the fundamental aim is to protect the rare White Headed Duck population in Europe, to this end, a serious reduction in numbers reduces the risk of wandering birds reaching Spain and hybridizing with the White headed duck.
The argument that "The rest of europe is not doing it, so why bother" is a false one also, attempts to persuade other nations to follow suit are being made.
At the end of the day this is an introduced species and is of little consequence to European biodiversity if eliminated. Left unchecked it could diminish the genetic purity of a rare breeding species. It is that simple.
Paul Dont try to justfy killing or shooting any birds,and if you think that the shooters that defra hire give a damn about shooting any other bird that just may be in with the ruddys you are living in cloud cuckoo land. I was at haughton green when they shot 80 ruddys a few years back and I have no proof ,but there was a black necked grebe present all winter until after the cull,and many other birds that were also mixed in dissapeared overnight,you may say that they flew away,but you tell me that these shooters,who make vast ammounts of money for killing the ruddys,can tell a winter plumage black necked grebe that surfaces in the middle of 80 ruddy ducks that are being bombarded with pellets And I don't know if you have any connection with the rspb,but id guess so,or you may just feel that it is justified,I don't know,but killing the ruddy ducks is just a way of the rspb and wilfowl trust gaining more funds from the support of the cull,and thats the reason why the majority of birders no longer report Ruddy ducks to anyone.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 11th of August 2010 04:32:35 PM
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 11th of August 2010 05:04:36 PM
For details on the RSPB's standpoint and reasons behind see http://www.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/policy/species/nonnative/ruddyducks.asp
Info found on the net ...
Progress in Europe
A second European workshop was held in Nantes in north-western France in November 2008. This was attended by representatives from France, the Netherlands, Spain and the UK. Information on ruddy duck numbers in Belgium and Germany was also made available to the workshop.
It appears that the UK, France and the Netherlands are the only countries with self-sustaining populations.
Ruddy ducks remain rare in Belgium, Germany and Ireland, and numbers in these countries are probably less than three breeding pairs in each.
Ruddy duck numbers in France have been slowly increasing, and in winter 2007/08 the population was estimated to be around 350 birds. It is thought that there are between 40 and 60 breeding pairs. The French authorities have been carrying out control for several years but now recognise that the effectiveness of their control programme must be increased if eradication is to be achieved.
To date there has been no control of ruddy ducks in the Netherlands, although peak numbers there have declined in two of the last three winters, from 97 in winter 2005/06 to 60 in winter 2008/09. This could suggest possible movement of birds between the Netherlands and the UK. However, the breeding population in the Netherlands has increased in recent years, and was estimated at 22 pairs in 2008. The Dutch Government has recognised the need to eradicate ruddy ducks in the Netherlands and is currently making the necessary administrative changes which will allow control.
In Spain the control programme is ongoing and six ruddy ducks were seen in Spain in 2008, all of which were culled.
No hybrids were reported in Spain in 2008.
Interesting reading ... So France do have a programme of culling and admit they need to greater effectiveness, Dutch will soon be implimenting one whilst Germany has less than 3 breeding pairs meaning that surely one of the largest threats to the WH Duck comes from the UK population as it was - 95% of European pop at beginning of project?
Also "Between 7 and 27 per annum over the past 10 years and only 2 since Jan 2009." surely one bird is too many if it was sucessful in diluting the gene pool by hybridising?
"The cull has been extended into 2011 within DEFRA's current budget, but when it ends Ruddy Ducks will migrate back into Britain from the continent and it will all be what we thought in the first place. A total waste of time." vs "could it suggest that Ruddy Ducks have probably lost their migratory instinct?" do we have two who are opposed to culling contradicting each other?
International conservation organisations and European governments believe that hybridisation poses a very serious threat to the survival of the white-headed duck - I know its good to question but can all these conservation organisiation be as far wrong as some make out?
And ok it may have cost a lot of money but what price can you put on the conservation of a species and on righting our past wrongs?
And isn't it nice to see the positive results from Spain - the population of Iberian White-headed Ducks goes from strength to strength, with hopefully more than 4,000 individuals to be found at the end of this current breeding season - surely good news that the species is recovering as The white-headed duck is a symbol of successful conservation in Spain, in the same way that the red kite is in the UK. If it was to disappear then a key argument used in achieving protection of wetland habitats and control of hunting would vanish. This could have serious consequences for these wetlands, their flora and fauna and for future conservation initiatives.
I'll leave you with Another bit of internet research which revealed this quote
"Well the fundamental aim is to protect the rare White Headed Duck population in Europe, to this end, a serious reduction in numbers reduces the risk of wandering birds reaching Spain and hybridizing with the White headed duck.
The argument that "The rest of europe is not doing it, so why bother" is a false one also, attempts to persuade other nations to follow suit are being made.
At the end of the day this is an introduced species and is of little consequence to European biodiversity if eliminated. Left unchecked it could diminish the genetic purity of a rare breeding species. It is that simple.
The RSPB kindly provide a proforma letter to Mr Osborne on the first page of their website - you can delete the suggested text and substitute your own...
Thanks Judith,
I've just used this proforma to voice my protest at the cull and suggest that stopping it immediately might be an easy way for the government to save some money.
Cheers, John
DONE and I have included this in the letter £740-a-bird cull of ruddy ducks 'a waste of money'A government-funded drive to wipe out the US interloper is not only expensive but doomed to failure, say wildlife activists A controversial UK cull of ruddy ducks, has cost the British taxpayer more than £740 for each dead bird. Figures from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) show that shoots of the chestnut-coloured bird have cost taxpayers £4.6m, yet only 6,200 have been killed. then I have asked for him to stop this expensive barbaric cull.
The RSPB kindly provide a proforma letter to Mr Osborne on the first page of their website - you can delete the suggested text and substitute your own...
Thanks Judith,
I've just used this proforma to voice my protest at the cull and suggest that stopping it immediately might be an easy way for the government to save some money.
The RSPB kindly provide a proforma letter to Mr Osborne on the first page of their website - you can delete the suggested text and substitute your own...
__________________
Judith Smith
__________________________________
Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
Maybe it could be a suggestion to the government's webpage where they are inviting ideas for savings, from the public, that this is an area where they could save some money that would be very popular with the public
A very good idea Judith.
A quick web search revealed a recent newspaper article which gives the costs so far as reported by DEFRA. Total costs so far 4.6 million, number of Ruddy Ducks killed 6200, or £740 per bird. What a waste of money.
Between 7 and 27 per annum over the past 10 years and only 2 since Jan 2009.
As Judith points out Holland, France and Germany are not killing Ruddy Ducks so surely there is a high probability that these birds were arriving from these countries which, presumably, have flourishing populations.
The cull has been extended into 2011 within DEFRA's current budget, but when it ends Ruddy Ducks will migrate back into Britain from the continent and it will all be what we thought in the first place. A total waste of time.
Many birders have turned in their RSPB memberships over this cull. Eagle Owls next perhaps?
Maybe it could be a suggestion to the government's webpage where they are inviting ideas for savings, from the public, that this is an area where they could save some money that would be very popular with the public.
It was I who received this bulletin and passed it onto Ian for publication on this website. One thing I found interesting was that only 2 birds had made it to Spain since 2009. I will re-check this with Henderson, because if this is an up-to-date figure, given the very cold winter we have just had, could it suggest that Ruddy Ducks have probably lost their migratory instinct? They are relatively short-lived birds (11yrs is the oldest). We haven't had such a winter, therefore, in the life of the vast majority of Ruddies in the UK (those that remain of course). But given that other European countries are not culling, you'd expect birds from those countries to arrive in Spain? Or maybe they'd just end up in the Camargue or somewhere.
The whole problem with this cull is that the science was done in the early 90s and by the time the cull was started (if my Spanish informant is to be believed, there were political reasons believe it or not) climate change had begun, and diving ducks are not going to migrate 1000 miles or more if they don't have to (eg. we don't get the internationally important numbers of Tufted and Pochard from the continent in winter, as we used to). Also when the Spanish were stopped from shooting W-h ducks and improved the habitats they'd destroyed, with the same EU money the UK got for the cull, the numbers of W-h ducks shot up to 3500-5000 in about 5 years! So, no need to look at their cousins to breed with any more, as was the case when only 25 birds left - or am I being anthropomorphic?
__________________
Judith Smith
__________________________________
Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
I'm seriously having to think about the pros and cons of my membership of both the RSPB and the Wildlife trust and continuing my occasional donations to the Wildfowl trust.
This eradication program can not be justified. I have mention my disapproval to various wardens and other members at the reserves that I visit and no one has been able to give a decent reason for this killing to continue.
The numbers of Ruddy duck are now very low in the UK and I think that this eradication program must stop now.
To eradicate any species,from anywere to me beggars belief,and how this can be justified,by the rspb,wildfowl trust,etc is even worse,lets just hope that one day a whooper swan doasn't breed with a Mute,or we can all just wait at Martin Mere,and shoot the lot The ruddy duck is very special,to me when i was 12 ,I remember Frank horrocks getting so excited,as he had seen one on firs park Lake in Leigh,and he took great joy in showing us youngsters ,this bright blue billed duck,that kept sneezing in the reeds,obviously it had a female then,probably on eggs and was displaying. That was the start of birding for me,and took me away from the council estate I was braught up on where lads would shoot any bird,and not think twice about shooting skylarks,lapwings,or yellowhammers.In that first sight of such a special little duck ,i could see a way out of that council estate,and venture to my ,what was to become ,my Minsmere-Pennington Flash,and now 34 years later,I still venture to the flash most weekend,from my Warrington Home,and where i used to watch small flocks of Ruddy ducks I see none,and the place is a lesser place without them. I am thinking seriously once more of pulling out of both the RSPB,and the Wildfowl trust,as i cannot support any organisation that condones killing any animal or bird,and then expects us to support the many schemes they have over seas for stopping the spanish etc shooting our songbirds etc,to me thats two faced,and thats what those two societies are to me.There seems to be more interest at most of thier reserves in the turnover in the cafe's or childrens play areas than the birds and wildlife. So please do not record Ruddy Ducks if you see them,otherwise ,you may never hear that sneezing little duck ever again. My views only-don't try to change my view-it will not change.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Monday 9th of August 2010 06:55:25 PM
one!
