Terry Long wrote:

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Hi , if you don't mind me asking , what is the feature of the adult casp's underwing that is the clincher ?

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Hi Terry

There is an excellent article from Ian in the ID section which covers this and also one in the latest edition of British Birds. In summary, P10 should show a long white tip with more white than black (extent v important) and also there should be tongues which run along the feather and penetrate the black. The colour of this is also v important - it should be whitish. If the colour of the tongues is approaching the colour of the mantle, it is probably a hybrid.

The extent of black on the underwing should be restricted in comparison to Herring or YLG.

Also look for a white tip to P9 with a black bar across the tip and black spots on P5 and P4.

You are better reading the articles than going off my brief summary.

Cheers

Mike

I too braved the wind and rain today only bumping into Mike as I left. 2 YLG (1w&Adult) was as good as it got. The only real interesting bird was a very dark hooded LBB, quite a striking bird. I'm sure there was more but my gulling skills are not up to much, more effort I think.

Cheers
Jason

Five hours with Pete Berry today; great conditions, many thousands of gulls.

Still, only three adult Yellow-legged Gulls despite some intense grilling

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 09:04:54 PM

4hrs with Tom Mck today was a bit disapointing with only

4 ad. Yellow Legged Gulls,
lots of gulls present,but mostly face on all day,making viewing difficult.

4 hours today with Jeff Clarke in great viewing conditions with masses of gulls present all day produced

4 Ad. Yellow Legged Gulls
1 1st winter bird
plus a yellow legged Argenteus Herring gull.

There's been a definite drop off in Y.L.Gull nos in the last couple of weeks,hopefully the first of the whitewingers should make their presence felt soon after the forecasted n.w. winds that are due over the next few days.

Four and a half hours on the 25th November with Pete Berry in frankly bizarre conditions. Huge high tide for the majority of the session, bright sunlight, then cloudy superb gulling conditions followed by high winds and driving rain. Oh the joys!

6 Yellow-legged Gulls present: 1 first calendar year, 1 third calendar year and 4 adults.

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Monday 28th of November 2011 09:44:11 PM

Four hours with Tom McKinney today, two hours in bright (poor gull watching) light with 10,000 gulls followed for no apparent reason with a mass exodus and then hardly any gulls in great gull watching light. Go figure?

2 Yellow-legged Gulls (first winter and adult)
Single Chiffchaff
2 Little Grebes
Single Siskin over, flock of Fieldfare, Skylarks...

A much better day today at the Bank,3 1/2 hours with Jeff Clarke

A stonking,classic 4th w. Caspian Gull
a probable adult Caspian Gull(didn't see P5,otherwise spot on for Caspian)
6 ad Yellow Legged Gulls
1 3r w. Y.L.Gull
A lot more gulls on the bank today,with a much better turn around than yesterday.

other birds seen today include S.E.Owl hunting the old tip as we were walking up to the bank, a single Pink Foot flying around and a report of an Hen Harrier by another birder thats been around for several days.

Ian, I was just testing to see if you remembered it.

To be honest, I'd completely forgotten about it till Pete reminded me earlier.

I remember this one well Tom and it's nice to see you haven't let it lie, 'cos neither has Pete as it formed part of our many discussions down at the bank on Thursday. Still can't believe you're trawling for opinions though

I think the forthcoming BB article is likely to clarify some points, like whether nowt but a speck on P5 is acceptable for cachinnans. Without getting all Birdforum on your ass here though this bird has it's pro's and con's. In some angles it looks more Caspian like than others but seeing as females can be all the more round headed and smaller billed (gigantic Common Gull like) that's not such an issue. The underside of P10 looks spot on but some argentatus Herrings can be so Caspian like it can be frightening! On balance, other than P5, which only shows a tiny black spot on the inner web (which is odd as I might have expected it to be on the outer web?), the bird looks reasonable for a Caspian. I have heard that Caspian's can indeed show this kind of P5 (and worse) but I have no experience of it myself. It looks quite dark backed too, more reminscent of the hundreds of Steppe Gulls I've just come back from seeing .

As I said at the time, it's another of those very interesting birds which for me doesn't quite cut the mustard to be elevated to a definate. That may all change though as our current knowledge expands or indeed get worse as that knowledge realises the extent of hybridisation in Eastern Europe

Hold on to that dream Tom and keep asking...

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Monday 7th of November 2011 08:05:06 PM

Interestingly (or not if you happen to hate gulls!) birds such as this form the content for part 2 of the British Birds article 'Identification of Caspian Gulls' which is in fact due out this December I have been reliably informed. Let's hope it doesn't exactly open the floodgates for allsorts but knowing the authors, it will be treated very sensibly and cautiously indeed.

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Monday 7th of November 2011 07:25:20 PM

Thursday's slight mystery gull has now had my concerns quelled. Despite at the time being a patently obvious adult Caspian Gull, it's p10 pattern was perplexing. An informed opinion has been sought though and it's apparently perfectly acceptable for cachinnans. A short article illustrating the p10 pattern should be on the website by tonight.

3 YLG today, an ad and 2 first winter in about an hour and a half. Interesting to compare the 2 first winters as they were seen fairly close together.
One apparently yellow-legged Herring, and at least 4 very dark-mantled argentatus, three of which had reduced black in the wingtip and one was more argenteus-like. Also a poss hybrid HG x LBBG.
Cheers.

Four and a half hours with Pete Berry today amongst the myriad of a minimum 30,000 gulls already in the area, including at least 10,000 on the bank at one time!

5 adult Yellow-legged Gulls (all with highly individual head streaking) and four excellent first winters.



-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Thursday 13th of October 2011 03:08:05 PM

John Barber wrote:

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I was well pleased until I read Pete's report below ! How did we miss the other eight ? ( only kidding )

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You were looking in the wrong place John

A 5 hour session with Ian today produced the following

9 Yellow Legged Gulls(6 ad/3 1st w.)
1 Yellow Legged Argenteus Herring Gull
10+ Argentatus Herring Gull
Not as many gulls as in the past,but still several thousand large gulls present to check through.

A four hour stint with Jeff Clarke today in mostly bad light conditions turned up
5 ad.Yellow Legged Gulls
1 2nd sum/winter Yellow Legged Gull
6+ ad. Argentatus Herring Gulls
2 Common Gulls,first of the autumn here
good numbers of birds present throughout,but viewing for the most part poor due to the strong sunlight.

-- Edited by pete berry on Thursday 25th of August 2011 06:26:40 PM

4 hours of frustrating viewing due to the bright weather conditions eventually produced
5 adult Yellow Legged Gulls
1 juvenile Y.L.Gull
for Ian,Jack & myself

I'll drop you a PM Anthony.

Another very pleasant fivehour stint today with Pete Berry brought:

10 Yellow-legged Gulls (6 adults and 4 3rd calendar year birds)
Single very bright yellow legged Herring Gull which was colour ringed (code obtained)
A dozen or so 2nd calendar year (1st summer in old money) Great Black-backed Gulls but oddly today no other age classes.
At least 6-7000 large gulls around in total today with 4000 on the bank at one time or another.

Nice to go gulling without carrying flasks of hot drinks and wearing umpteen layers of clothes to keep warm.Only needed 4 layers on yesterday in our hot summer

Five and a half hours good gulling today with Pete Berry and a very conservative 5000 gulls in the area. Highlights were:

9 Yellow-legged Gulls (all carefully ensured as different individuals, consisting of 6 adults and 3 third calendar year birds)
Single bright yellow legged adult argenteus Herring Gull
Single third calendar year argentatus Herring Gull
Lots of (Ribble estuary) colour-ringed gulls, eight of which we managed to read the rings of.

Two brief spells while going from N Wales to Timperley then back again. Bit late in the arvo both times really with few gulls present but included the large S or TW Iceland again, an intermedius, and a v dark-mantled 4th or 5th calendar argentatus with the longest primaries i have ever seen in my life, really striking. Wonder if birds from the furthest NE in their range have the longest wings? Also at least 10 or so very worn and faded FW argentatus looking rather smart.

Three and a half hours with Pete Berry today after hightide from around midday. Perfect viewing conditions, great light, birds behaving and facing the right way etc, plus never less than 6000 or so gulls present at any one time.

Single juvenile Iceland Gull
10 Yellow-legged Gulls, of the most diverse age groups we've seen all winter! 1 2nd calender year, 2 3rd calender year, 2 4th calender year, 2 5th calender year, 3 full adults.
4 argentatus Herring Gulls