Seemingly unnacceptable behaviour at Elton's Jack Snipe

david lyle · Status: Offline

RE: Seemingly unnacceptable behaviour at Elton's Jack Snipe

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

Simon Warford wrote:

Ian McKerchar wrote:

Time to clear this up, from Gordon Yate's perspective atleast.

Gordon was NOT involved in the antics at Elton Reservoir. He was there actually photographing Water Rails and had no vested interest in Jack Snipe having already had many photographic opportunities recently with birds very close to his house. Having seen the two photographers wandering about Gordon had gone to speak to them and offered them some advice. They did indeed see the Jack Snipe at about 50 feet after it was flushed by a Water Rail and at this point Gordon left the site and was back home in Rochdale by 11:15.

Gordon has assured me that he played no part in the alleged flushing of the Jack Snipe and that whatever happened after he left was done whilst he was not there.

He is one of he most experienced photographers on the British scene and has been for many years and I am grateful that he has taken the time and effort to contact me personally to put the matter straight. For those wondering, the whole point of this thread is that rather than the usual potentially damaging chinese whispers of such incidents circulating the county as they do, giving those allegedly involved no opportunity to have their say, this way on the forum, it is in the open. Some might say it goes out to a wider audience and so is potentially more damaging but atleast it gives that opportunity, as in this instance, for those who's names have been mentioned to put thier view across and set the matter straight. That Gordon Yates has done just that speaks volumes, perhaps the two photographers Gordon left in the field may come forward yet.

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Monday 4th of January 2010 09:20:46 AM

If he was trying to photograph a Water Rail why was he in a farmers field with another guy chasing a Jack Snipe around when there is a much easier Water Rail to photograph at Bennies that almost walks up to you where his 4x4 was parked, the rubbish about him being 50 yards away from the stream is laughable and the claim of a Water Rail flushing the Jack Snipe is even more laughable. Water Rails walk past these birds many times a day without flushing them.

Putting the Jack Snipes on the forum was an error on my part, i should have known better and certainly no more information will be put on here about these birds.

simon
Are you sure your not getting Gordon mixed up with the other 2 guys,who had the 4x4,Gordon,has photographed almost every british species ,and would have no need for jack snipe has he has them where he lives.he has been photographing birds for nearly 40 years,and strangely he was watching Elton area as his local patch 50 years ago,so he is not a stranger to the area at all.
Sometimes when these things happen on your local patch its easy to take things too hard,but its the same everywere ,if i see something unusual or uncommon at penny,I release it and many times regret it,but unless we want to go back to the dark days of only finding out a bird had been somewere a week after it had gone,which used to happen,which now fortunately for someone like me who has a maximum few hours a week to birdwatch,doasn't happen ,because someone takes the trouble to put it on here and long may it continue,it would be a shame to lose Elton sightings,but we will all live with whatever the Elton watchers decide.

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Monday 4th of January 2010 09:58:10 PM

Steven Astley · Status: Offline

Interesting discussion
I was somebody who was able to obtain great photos of this bird a week or so ago. I couldn't find the bird at first stood around talking to myself like I usually do about how I'm never chasing after other peoples finds ever again, when I spotted it stood motionless barely few feet away from where I had been stood for c15 mins.
I then proceeded to take photos it didn't move despite my close proximity. It behaved just like they say in the books about they don't move until almost stood on. The ones who allegedly kept flushing it must have got very close to the bird indeed.
Anyway after taking about 7 or so shots I decided enough was enough I realised that it standing motionless was protection and it was not in the best interest of the bird to stay like that for a long time. So I left it to be free to feed.

I was there yesterday aswell, from around 11, I couldn't find any Jack Snipes, the only other person there was a lady. The area had obviously been extensively searched by the footprints in the snow. Later on while I was trying photograph Water Rails on the canal I did see somebody go past in a 4x4 and 2 guys, at least 1 of them had a humungous lens searching the marsh but that was around 1 or 2 I think.

Birds get flushed but 3 times and there is no excuse for that! If I had seen them I wouldn't have let it happen. Personally I think the fact that birders, of all people, were driving a 4x4 whichs is reflective of the genral populations apathy towards climate change is more sad, but thats another story.

I totally agree that the decision to hand out news of this species and any other species is with the finders and the regulars of Elton and same goes for any other sites. Theres someting to be said reading bird reports, atlases, learning habitat, effort in the field, finding your own stuff, creating a network of birding buds etc etc like the years ago. Instead, nowadays any tom dick and harry, like me, can read info internet and creating possible bottleneck at sites, disturbance to birds and angry landowners.

I reckon theres plenty of unfound Jack Snipes out there maybe birders should be made to work and earn there ticks, photos etc. All you've got to do trapse through a few hundred muddy fields in winter and if your like me still have no luck

Looking on the bright side, the bad behaviour is in the minority and is condoned by majority, no major damage is done. Any future birder will read this and realise he needs to be on his/her best behaviour at this site.

Simon Warford · Status: Offline

Ian McKerchar wrote:

Time to clear this up, from Gordon Yate's perspective atleast.

Gordon was NOT involved in the antics at Elton Reservoir. He was there actually photographing Water Rails and had no vested interest in Jack Snipe having already had many photographic opportunities recently with birds very close to his house. Having seen the two photographers wandering about Gordon had gone to speak to them and offered them some advice. They did indeed see the Jack Snipe at about 50 feet after it was flushed by a Water Rail and at this point Gordon left the site and was back home in Rochdale by 11:15.

Gordon has assured me that he played no part in the alleged flushing of the Jack Snipe and that whatever happened after he left was done whilst he was not there.

He is one of he most experienced photographers on the British scene and has been for many years and I am grateful that he has taken the time and effort to contact me personally to put the matter straight. For those wondering, the whole point of this thread is that rather than the usual potentially damaging chinese whispers of such incidents circulating the county as they do, giving those allegedly involved no opportunity to have their say, this way on the forum, it is in the open. Some might say it goes out to a wider audience and so is potentially more damaging but atleast it gives that opportunity, as in this instance, for those who's names have been mentioned to put thier view across and set the matter straight. That Gordon Yates has done just that speaks volumes, perhaps the two photographers Gordon left in the field may come forward yet.

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Monday 4th of January 2010 09:20:46 AM

If he was trying to photograph a Water Rail why was he in a farmers field with another guy chasing a Jack Snipe around when there is a much easier Water Rail to photograph at Bennies that almost walks up to you where his 4x4 was parked, the rubbish about him being 50 yards away from the stream is laughable and the claim of a Water Rail flushing the Jack Snipe is even more laughable. Water Rails walk past these birds many times a day without flushing them.

Putting the Jack Snipes on the forum was an error on my part, i should have known better and certainly no more information will be put on here about these birds.

Pete Welch · Status: Offline

Just on Parkgate [and apologies for linking two incidents which may well turn out to be very different] its been suggested I report the incident to the Dee site - which I will do - I wish I'd taken some photos of the offending pair but benefit of hindsight and all that. I don't know why they thought they were better/different to the other 30 people standing within the old baths [including photographers with £10k worth of gear

]

Anyway I'd love to see Jack Snipe so I hope the Elton birds don't suffer!

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

Pete Astles wrote:

Pete Welch wrote:

I would hope that someone managed to speak to these three to point out the folly of what they were doing - or maybe they knew and didn't care...

I saw another example at Parkgate today - 30 plus people birders, photographers and some who like to do a bit of both [like me] patiently watching the SEOs and a harrier from the wall and car park when two selfish individuals walked out onto the marsh way past one of the normal owl perches and proceeded to walk towards where the owls where hunting with a compact camera! Sadly they were still out there when I left so I couldn't try and speak to them...

Disturbance of any kind in this kind of weather must be potentially fatal?

Pete I understand the harriers have moved on in the past as a result of people walking onto the marsh to get a better view or a photo. Parkgate baths has always been great as its so accessable. Apart from the harm to the birds what a shame for the rest of the decent people if they moved somewhere inaccessable. The few idiots always ruin it for the many.

Think sometimes we forget what a minority we are,and for every photographer out on the shoreline ,marshes,i bet theres 50 dogwalkers,as i know when i try to get shots of waders on the ribble.

sorry for wandering off topic again!back to Eltons Jack snipe

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Monday 4th of January 2010 05:02:30 PM

Pete Astles · Status: Offline

Pete Welch wrote:

I would hope that someone managed to speak to these three to point out the folly of what they were doing - or maybe they knew and didn't care...

I saw another example at Parkgate today - 30 plus people birders, photographers and some who like to do a bit of both [like me] patiently watching the SEOs and a harrier from the wall and car park when two selfish individuals walked out onto the marsh way past one of the normal owl perches and proceeded to walk towards where the owls where hunting with a compact camera! Sadly they were still out there when I left so I couldn't try and speak to them...

Disturbance of any kind in this kind of weather must be potentially fatal?

Pete I understand the harriers have moved on in the past as a result of people walking onto the marsh to get a better view or a photo. Parkgate baths has always been great as its so accessable. Apart from the harm to the birds what a shame for the rest of the decent people if they moved somewhere inaccessable. The few idiots always ruin it for the many.

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

Ian McKerchar wrote:

Time to clear this up, from Gordon Yate's perspective atleast.

Gordon was NOT involved in the antics at Elton Reservoir. He was there actually photographing Water Rails and had no vested interest in Jack Snipe having already had many photographic opportunities recently with birds very close to his house. Having seen the two photographers wandering about Gordon had gone to speak to them and offered them some advice. They did indeed see the Jack Snipe at about 50 feet after it was flushed by a Water Rail and at this point Gordon left the site and was back home in Rochdale by 11:15.

Gordon has assured me that he played no part in the alleged flushing of the Jack Snipe and that whatever happened after he left was done whilst he was not there.

He is one of he most experienced photographers on the British scene and has been for many years and I am grateful that he has taken the time and effort to contact me personally to put the matter straight. For those wondering, the whole point of this thread is that rather than the usual potentially damaging chinese whispers of such incidents circulating the county as they do, giving those allegedly involved no opportunity to have their say, this way on the forum, it is in the open. Some might say it goes out to a wider audience and so is potentially more damaging but atleast it gives that opportunity, as in this instance, for those who's names have been mentioned to put thier view across and set the matter straight. That Gordon Yates has done just that speaks volumes, perhaps the two photographers Gordon left in the field may come forward yet.

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Monday 4th of January 2010 09:20:46 AM

100% Agree with everything above,Having known Gordon for a very long time,i know he wouldn't be involved in re-flushing of jack snipe.
The only other thing i can add is almost every record ever of Jack snipe is due to flushing them and on the most part by experienced birders,who know the only way to count jack snipe is to flush them,and many areas have been protected due to flushing important areas for snipe and jack snipe.This is nothing to do with photographing ,them but i admit that many times to count jack snipe in the past we have flushed them otherwise who would ever know the large numbers we used to have at penny or numbers still present in some areas not stated,and in almost 40 years ive never seen one on the ground,only when its flown from below my feet,at most unexpected times.one nearly landed on a goosander a few weeks ago at penny,now that would have been a crackin picture.

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Monday 4th of January 2010 01:17:12 PM

Paul Wilson · Status: Offline

Judith Smith wrote:

They saw the Jack Snipe 50yds away and did not go any closer. Just as they were about to photograph the Jack Snipe...

Must have a bloody long lens to be able to photograph a Jack Snipe from 50 yards!

Also, Gordon, having flushed the bird once, then went off to try to re-locate it.

Everyone flushes birds from time to time. The issue here is that this bird seems to be repeatedly 'under attack'. I myself have got close to the bird, having photographed it from about 15 feet, but I haven't been back to try again.

-- Edited by Paul Wilson on Monday 4th of January 2010 09:21:27 AM

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

Time to clear this up, from Gordon Yate's perspective atleast.

Gordon was NOT involved in the antics at Elton Reservoir. He was there actually photographing Water Rails and had no vested interest in Jack Snipe having already had many photographic opportunities recently with birds very close to his house. Having seen the two photographers wandering about Gordon had gone to speak to them and offered them some advice. They did indeed see the Jack Snipe at about 50 feet after it was flushed by a Water Rail and at this point Gordon left the site and was back home in Rochdale by 11:15.

Gordon has assured me that he played no part in the alleged flushing of the Jack Snipe and that whatever happened after he left was done whilst he was not there.

He is one of he most experienced photographers on the British scene and has been for many years and I am grateful that he has taken the time and effort to contact me personally to put the matter straight. For those wondering, the whole point of this thread is that rather than the usual potentially damaging chinese whispers of such incidents circulating the county as they do, giving those allegedly involved no opportunity to have their say, this way on the forum, it is in the open. Some might say it goes out to a wider audience and so is potentially more damaging but atleast it gives that opportunity, as in this instance, for those who's names have been mentioned to put thier view across and set the matter straight. That Gordon Yates has done just that speaks volumes, perhaps the two photographers Gordon left in the field may come forward yet.

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Monday 4th of January 2010 09:20:46 AM

Simon Warford · Status: Offline

I'd be interested to learn how you could see a small camaflauged bird such as a Jack Snipe from 50 yards in a reed filled ditch that you can only see in to from 15 feet away. Such a person is obviously a far better birder than anyone on this forum especially when you consider they wouldnt even know the favoured feeding area of these birds.

-- Edited by Simon Warford on Monday 4th of January 2010 07:07:11 AM

Judith Smith · Status: Offline

I have spoken to Gordon Yates tonight about this. Firstly, he had the permission of the farmer Mr Brown to enter the fields in question where the stream is. There were two other photographers in 4x4s whose identities he doesn't know (from Radcliffe apparently) and he asked them to stay with him as he had experience of Jack Snipe, and he got the impression they were new to photography. They saw the Jack Snipe 50yds away and did not go any closer. Just as they were about to photograph the Jack Snipe, a Water Rail jumped out and flushed it and it flew towards Bennies. At that point Gordon left. He doesn't know what the other two photographers then did.

Gordon is a very well known photographer in the NW and has a reputation to uphold; he knows that a lot of people recognise him, having been on the scene at least 35 years to my knowledge. He assures me he would never knowingly disturb birds.

stuartherring · Status: Offline

as some one who is just getting into bird photography i find the behaviour of the 3 individuals in question totaly unaceptable the welfare of the bird must always come first and disturbing them just to get a photo goes beyond everything that this forum is about ie: the enjoyment and pleasure we all get from seing birds and sharing that info with each other

pete berry · Status: Offline

I can only assume that the persons in question found out about the Jack Snipe from this forum,it therefore follows that they will have read these postings.So come on and let us know the reasons why you found it necessary to flush a bird so many times in such severe weather.Jack Snipe are usually nocturnal feeders and the very fact it was out feeding in the open in daylight shows what sort of pressure it was under to find enough food to survive.If i were one of the Elton regulars I'd be thinking twice before putting anymore news out from the site,especially if it attracts these sort of imbeciles.

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

These such instances occur throughout the country but are thankfully still relatively uncommon. It's important to point out though that I only mention Gordon Yate's name as I know him to have been present, he was not the only one though. Also, he may have his perfectly reasonable explaination and that is my point, not to cast aspertions in his (or anyone elses direction) but so that atleast someone present at the time, perhaps Gordon himself, may defend their actions. With now over 500 registered users to this forum I feel sure if one of those photographers present isn't amongst them then someone who knows them is.

It would be nice to draw the matter to a conclusion if possible so perhaps something positive can be pulled from it all and so the Elton regulars can have their minds put at rest one way or the other

Pete Welch · Status: Offline

I would hope that someone managed to speak to these three to point out the folly of what they were doing - or maybe they knew and didn't care...

I saw another example at Parkgate today - 30 plus people birders, photographers and some who like to do a bit of both [like me] patiently watching the SEOs and a harrier from the wall and car park when two selfish individuals walked out onto the marsh way past one of the normal owl perches and proceeded to walk towards where the owls where hunting with a compact camera! Sadly they were still out there when I left so I couldn't try and speak to them...

Disturbance of any kind in this kind of weather must be potentially fatal?

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

I've decided what i said was a bit strong so edited it and will comment later,all i can say really is no bird should be disturbed,so anyone can get a picture.id rather throw my camera in the flash than harm any bird.These photographers should be ashamed at what they did,and obviously if one of them was Gordon Yates,then they were not inexperienced,as he has been taking bird photographs for 30 years,thats if Gordon was actually with them and not just following them,as i know Gordon yates would not knowingly harm any bird.

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Sunday 3rd of January 2010 09:28:34 PM

Melanie Beckford · Status: Offline

l saw this little bird recently with others...without it being flushed,harried or troubled.

l class myself as an inexperienced birder but do appreciate and respect where a bird lives, feeds and roosts.

These 'birders' who constantly harrassed this creature all in the name of getting great photo should be deeply ashamed of themselves. Through their selfishness, again it means that decent, respectful birders might now not have the opportunity to view this bird.

l wonder how many of the photographers will give an honest account on their websites on how their photo was obtained?

David Winnard · Status: Offline

Just to say i was NOT one of the photographers there - Elton has quickly become my bogey site as before xmas i went to see the Water Rails and did not find any, but Jill and Paul had 3 moments before i got there.

From what the birders told me who saw the Jack Snipe the first couple of times, they watched from a close distance where they could see the bird perfectly and yet did not flush it, they even got some great pics of a difficult bird!

IF three photographers have flushed this bird (3 times!) in order to get some pics then there is no justification.

Having left uni last summer graduating with a wildlife photography degree and now trying hard to make a living at it, it sickens me when i read things like this. It seems that a few numpty 'photographers' can tarnish the credibility of those who have ethics and respect for the subjects they take pics of. Having one of those big long lens' when i go out taking pics can make people assume that you are in the same camp as the numptys.

there does seem to be more and more of 'the picture comes first' mentality in wildlife photography which i despise so much, from flushing birds to throwing LIVE bait to owls.

Anyway, rant over, all i can say if it is true is there is no justification.

I was trying to get some Magpie pics as they have been showing really well for me recently but today, nothing. Theres always tomorrow!

Dave

Paul Cliff · Status: Offline

Selfish, sad such a shame.

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

It is with regret that it seems there may have to be future 'censoring' of some news coming out from Elton. Today three photographers were allegedly flushing the Jack Snipe (on atleast 3 occasions) in order to get closer or perhaps that 'better shot'. That this is unacceptable in itself is compounded by the fact that the part of the farmer's field they were in has no public access. I believe the farmer came out and spoke to them at the time but this in itself could easily have stretched the relationship between this farmer and the local birders, some of whom do have his permission to access all parts of the field. At least one of the local watchers has voiced his concern and commented that he will no longer publisize the presence of these Jack Snipe.

It is a shame that a tiny minority may spoil aspects of our birding but unfortunately it will always go on. I for one will support the Elton regulars decision whatever it may be, it is their site and they devote a lot of time to it's cause. Perhaps the photographers would like to express their views, there are always two sides to a story before anyone starts to condem them publically (remembering my ever eager censoring finger!) and I for one would welcome their thoughts. I am aware that one of the photographer was no less than Gordon Yates.

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Sunday 3rd of January 2010 12:34:06 PM