The real issue (and getting off topic here a little but its such an important point) is that these sightings are only of true ornithology value if they are formally submitted to the Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group. Vic is absolutely right, what is common now may not be in the future but in order to be able to fully assess population trends and the likes (including working with partner organisations like the BTO etc), plus other essential conservation work, the data needs to be officially recorded. Unfortunately, posts on the forum are not used in any capacity other than the interest of others.
The Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group have tried their best to provide as many methods of recording birds so they can be dealt with effectively and efficiently by us but I appreciate, in a technologically advancing world, we may not provide the ease of submission with which people demand these days. Our methods of record submission may take a little effort but the benefits for bird and their habitats are crucial. Were still trying, still looking to find that perfect happy medium between ease of use for birders and ease of integration with the ever expanding county database but its not easy for a small group like ourselves.
I cannot stress enough how important record submission is though, as I see some tremendously valuable sightings on here daily, including from sites which could well be imminently at danger of development proposals, which are lost to posts on here and nothing more. If there's a better way of doing things then I'm all ears and would really appreciate comments via private message please
Vic that point echoes my point about common species in GM being scarcer in other counties, it could indeed also provide valuable info about a declining species in GM if when you look back at posts and see that a particular species was quite common, you might not realise that if they weren't mentioned in the post!
Just looking back through this thread, it's amazing how many various off-shoot topics have derived from the original thread comment started by Ian, proving just how valuable the forum is in many ways.
Ian also makes a good point about lists and species recorded being up to the individual. I must admit that I don't tend to record lists of common birds unless there is an exceptional number. However I would certainly encourage people that do. With bird populations being dynamic to say the least, whose to say that recording half a dozen Blue Tits or a dozen Jackdaws for example won't have some relevance in the future. After all in the 1980's I would never dream that I would struggle to find a single pair of breeding Lapwings or less than 5 pairs of breeding Linnets on Werneth Low in the early 21st century.
Ian makes a good point about checking posts sent from tablets or phones, about 3yrs back i would have been one of the people causing problems every time i posted from my tablet Chiffchaff became Chiff Chaff, predictive spelling changed Rook to Took and Fir Tree flash to For Tree Flash, not being very technical with very basic IT skills i hadn't realised what was happening, the grandkids sorted me out as they usually do with IT problems, I got back into birding about 8yrs ago after a 30 odd year break and have found this forum invaluable, i have learned a lot from many of the members i have been fortunate enough to meet in the field, and seen birds that i probably wouldn't have got to see without the info picked up from this site, Keep up the good work Ian it is much appreciated by the vast majority.
Jeff I used to list all my sightings, and perhaps like you've said yourself not everyone is interested in everything that's been seen. But I did it and still do the odd time for 2 main reasons.
Firstly any beginners who may not be familiar with a particular reserve or the species to be found there can get an idea of what it's like and what they can see, and let's face it there's got to be a 1st time for all of us visiting somewhere at some point.
Secondly and perhaps more importantly, is the fact that some of those species that are included in that sightings list that may be common in GM and perceived as not worth listing, could actually be a lot scarcer on the site or the county your sightings are from. Other bird services (ie. Birdguides regularly get info from this forum) could well find that kind of info important for their records.
My thanks to everyone for the much appreciated support and comments.
In answer to Jeff's couple of perfectly reasonable criticisms though, the garden birds thread non location issue has been discussed many years ago and it's the only thread I openly permit users to not have to post a location if they don't want to. Some may not want their, even general, home location known and there are other reasons too. As for the amount of species or lists users post, that is rightly entirely up to the individual, if we don't want to read it all we don't have to, plus what one enjoys may very well not be of interest to others and that's the beauty of it all I suppose.
It's incredible to me that the forum is now almost ten years old and when I started it I was amazed I reached 100 users and people actually used it. It's now more popular than it ever has been in that time, which means we must be doing something right.
I would also like to add my full support for this policy of using correct species names. I have come across other websites (agreeing here with Richard Thew in that the North Wales website was one) where some of the acronyms and abbreviations used were incomprehensible to me. When posting any information on the internet what is the point of using terms which render the text meaningless to some readers?
I occasionally visit other regional or county websites and a large number are unhelpful with abbreviations for bird names but also for place names which for non-local visitors makes them frustratingly useless. I frequently use abbreviations in my own notes but most of these would be meaningless to others (what would you make of LEW, SRS, GIB or WWG?). It is only a curtesy to other readers to use the correct full names for all species.
I dread to think of how many hours Ian spends on maintaining and managing this site. I know that I could not do it and I thank him sincerely for this wonderful resource!
As an aside my only criticisms of the user contributions to this site are:
(1) 1. Many contributors to the County garden birds topic do not state which area from which they are reporting.
(2) 2. Some people submit full lists of everything that they have seen. I often do not want to read through a list of 30 or 40 common species just to see if there is anything of significance. I tend not to post anything unless I feel I have something worth reporting. However I realise that some of these contributors may be enthusiastic beginners who feel that they are contributing useful information, so maybe I am being too critical.
Given the context, I assume you mean because Rob, rather than coz?
I certainly did Jamie but I checked the BTO list first and couldn't find any Because's so trusted my own judgement to deem it safe to abbreviate that one.
Phil...yeah Dick's Pipit I've seen used before somewhere, but with reference to my post below, I'm afraid I don't see that as even a slang name for Richard's Pipit (only in my opinion) only for the boy's name Richard, and even that is old school I think, so that would be rather annoying if that was used on here, I doubt anyone on here would incidentally!
Ian on your point about people using the forum who aren't registered... Firstly my best mate (who I go down to Cornwall with and I actually put his name on the posts) uses the forum occasionally to see what's happening and to keep in touch with where I've been and what I've seen if he's been working away for example. Although he's not a registered user, he uses it responsibly as a valuable resource.
Secondly I once did pull up a couple of birders at a site when I asked were they members on the forum, and the reply I got was..."you joking mate? We don't bother with all that bulls**t, it's a crap forum anyway" I actually replied with "...well it can't be that bad coz you've obviously gone on there to know that something has turned up here otherwise you'd be none the wiser!" and with that they just looked at each other and didn't know where to put their faces. People that know me, know that I don't suffer fools easily.
As I've expressed to you before Ian, this forum benefits me no end, and the info provided on here and by you personally with regards to identification etc I can't stress enough how helpful it's been. Although there are other forums that I browse every once in a while, and bird services that I use, this one is without doubt the kingpin of them all. The photos I take always come to this forum and yourself first before anywhere else. The people I meet at various places too, is always good especially putting names to faces. On talking to members I always learn and pick up valuable info about the site and the birds also, so that is another beneficial reason to be a forum member. You must keep up the running of the forum in the way you see fit, and long may it continue Cheers Rob
I want to add my full support all the fully supportive comments on this thread! Couldn't agree more, Phil, that there are plenty of forums and Facebook groups "out there" habitually use jarring expressions like "Blackwit" and GSW, and I've even seen "Whitarse". Also abbreviations for local places means that you have to be in the know to understand what's going on. I only started birding about 4 years ago, and only recording for less than a year - due in no small way to this fantastic resource. Big thanks to you, Ian, and ignore the detractors!
-- Edited by Paul Richardson on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 02:40:21 PM
I'm such a saddo that I look at lots of regional bird forums, including places I'm unlikely to visit such as Essex (!). There aren't any that come close to this one, in terms of the way it's organised - and therefore its ornithological value. This is down mostly the dedication of Ian in running a 'tight ship'.
There are some forums where every new sighting is new thread making them almost useless. There are others where the use of slang terms such as 'Dick's Pipit' is the norm (how many new birders know what a 'Dick's Pipit' is??)
So I would just like to add my support as well and gratitude to Ian for all the hard work (and also apologies for my Greater Spotted transgressions)
p.s If there is, in fact, a world domination plan on the table I'd like register my support for that as well (as long as I get a top position in the McKerchar Junta)
-- Edited by Phil Barnett on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 02:27:00 PM
Maybe a registered user only forum is the way to go?If there is no contribution to the bird sightings or discussion ,why should someone who's not registered reap the benefits . At least then you wouldn't get e-mails from unknown people slagging you off. Keep up the good work John I always thought it was registered users only anyway.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 01:09:40 PM
Sorry if it came across that way Alan, the only thing I'm fed up with is folk who aren't registered on the forum so don't contribute whatsoever but yet use the information others take the time to post and then slag off the forum (and its owner) to all and sundry. If people out there are so offended by being asked to spell those beautiful and evocative bird names correctly, or basically just don't like the forum, then why do they look at it so much? If you don't like it, don't look . The forum is an open resource for all, I could easily change it though (one button away!) so only registered users can view any of it, but I know there are many birders out there who use the forum but aren't registered and whilst they don't necessarily contribute themselves, I know they appreciate and value its worth so I certainly wouldn't want to exclude them.
As far as I'm aware, no one on the forum purposefully misspells but there never has been any angry private messages (nor even polite ones) to those that occasionally get it wrong anyway and unless someone was really 'taking the Michael' there never will be, they certainly don't offend me .
Anyway, thanks for all the comments, including the many more privates ones of support as its extremely important to know your views on it; its your forum after all!
Bad grammar is quite often unavoidable for a number of reasons, the main ones I have full sympathy for, whether it be Dyslexia or just someone not being as good at written English as someone else for any reason, so long as the gist of the post is understandable then I'm ok with that.
But I'm in total agreement with the correct spelling of bird names, virtually everyone has a guide of some kind and the name is written infront of you so no excuse really. I do have a little bit of tolerance however (my own personal view) when it comes to slang names and old names, if the Audenshaw Great Skua was posted as "juvenile Bonxie still present" I don't think I'd be offended as such but I would've preferred Great Skua.
Lastly, as for the increased use of daft abbreviations, in my view it is quite frankly sometimes annoying ... gsw, bhgull, LBb, Cgull etc etc. Infact for Cgull, you might as well put Sea Gull as it sounds the same and is just as useless as a sighting unless you stipulate which one it is, Common or Caspian!
I have been guilty in the past of using LB-b gull or the like in a private message or an email to yourself Ian, simply to keep from the email being an essay, but in a sightings post, Lesser Black-backed Gull for me everytime, and as for Greater being used instead of just Great, that annoys me too! If it's for Scaup and Yellowlegs for example then ok, not before Spotted Woodpecker or Black-backed Gull !!!
...as for the offensive email Ian, don't know how they sent it without an originators address, but there's probably a way. I wouldn't worry about it, water off a G-w Teal's back!
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Wednesday 6th of April 2016 01:04:42 PM
I meant to say, in my post of a short while ago, that Manchester Birding Forum is a really great site and a massive forum and resource for birders in the Greater Manchester, and wider, area. I don't often post to it but I read it almost every day.
I'm only saying this as I thought I detected, Ian, that you were pretty 'fed-up' with people who indulge themselves with inappropriate posts to the site. Please know that apart from these nut-cases (there's me being offensive!) there are hundreds of dedicated birders who really appreciate what you are doing.
Please keep up the good work and don't be discouraged.
My feeling is that if someone is a regular misuser of the forum, for the reasons you give, they should be removed from the site altogether, not just their offending posts. I do have a bit of sympathy for those who get bird names wrong, for example Missel Thrush and Greater Spotted Woodpecker are names that were current at one time, though not today. I keep my 'Oxford Dictionary of British Bird Names' well to hand in case I fall foul of 'the authorities' when posting!
By the way I'm on the lookout for my first Chimney Swallow of the summer - oops, sorry!
You have my full support too. Just as an extra point on this too, as through experience, i know myself that there is nothing more frustrating then trying to work out certain bird names that are not clearly reported and that could even be misinterpreted and there are also several species that have simular lettering such as an example; G plover... is it golden or grey plover. BT godwit could be Bar tailed or Black tailed. I once saw on the North Wales forum, just lettering of a bird (can't remember the letters) and i could not figure it out at all. Many thanks and please keep up the good work.
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Which bird is ideal for keeping cakes in? I asked. The answer: a Bun-tin.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/135715507@N06
I would like to add my support to your campaign, Ian (bird names, that is, not world domination!).
Bad spelling is excusable, particularly if someone is using using a phone with a lousy screen in pouring rain on a windswept moor (I speak from recent experience!). I'm not a regular visitor to other bird-related forums (should that be fora or fori ) but some of the posts I read are unintelligible due to their use of obscure abbreviations and slang names for birds.
Sorry to hear about the abusive e-mail - maybe they can't spell words with more than four letters!
Thanks Doc, the support is really much appreciated. I can't spell for toffee (hope I've spelled that right!) and I still have to check some birds names now and again but I feel I owe it to them to get it right and those birders who have gone before us and taken the time and effort to ensure those wonderful names live on.
Shame I received my first ever anonymous and offensive email tonight though (I'm sure I'd better get used to it!), calling me all the names under the sun for telling people they should be spelling things and getting their grammar correct. Erm, I'm not, just the BIRD NAMES, please!
I for one agree Ian, we should be using Great Spotted Woodpecker, not Greater, Great Black-backed Gull not Greater, and definitely NOT Missel Thrush!! The names are definitive and there to be used correctly so why not use them?!!
For the benefit only of the many active registered users of Manchester Birding, who make this forum their own and what it is via their tremendously valuable and very much appreciated contributions I would just like to clarify a point to those valuable folk.
I care not about general spelling, punctuation or grammar on this forum, never have and have made reference to that point many times before. My own spelling etc rubbish so who am I to dictate to others, I'm just thankful there is spell check! It is only bird names which I believe should be spelled correctly. It is a shame that some, all of a sudden, feel the right to spell them any way they want when they have been spelled a particular and proper way for so long; don't the birds or indeed the people who named them in the first place deserve the respect of having the names spelled correctly? . Should we be perpetuating these modern name changes which are now often being seriously adopted on many on Internet sites? Not for me I'm afraid.
Anyway, that's enough from me, it seems I'd better get off and write some more rules and stuff so I can take over the world
USERS OF THIS FORUM REALLY NEED TO READ THE STICKY INFORMATION THREADS...
Great Spot Wood Great-spotted Woodpecker Chiff-chaff Chiff Chaff Great-crested Grebe GND (really, still!!!) Gold crest Sparrow Hawk Tree creeper (if you're going to post from a mobile phone or similar device please make sure you're spell-checker has not interfered with your spelling before you submit the post as they often split birds names) Missel Thrush Gossander/Gooseander Med Gull
It goes on and on; we all makes mistakes but the above are all too very regular 'mistakes'.
Feel free to contribute to the steady decline of birding via Facebook and the likes but birds at least deserve to have their names spelled correctly and either way, standards are standards and unlike most other Internet things, this little forum upholds its! If Manchester Birding be the last bastion of birding standards then so be it
Over four years on from the original post in this thread and the rate of editing has only increased!
In the past three days I have had to edit over twenty posts containing the locations of four rare or vulnerable breeding species and considering one known egg thief is already prowling the county, at least one pair of Peregrines has had their eggs stolen (not by the aforementioned egg thief either) and poaching of deer and hares is on the increase, the caution relating to posting breeding birds and sensitive mammals on here is very well justified. The posting guidelines are obvious enough but it seems many just can't be bothered to read them and if that continues then people will simply be denied the use of the forum. The welfare of the birds comes first and foremost, without exception.
The increase in pointless posts or 'chit chat' has also increased of late. Of course a certain amount of 'non-sighting' posts are permitted within sighting threads so long as they are in context of the thread and add value but anything else should be either be sent as a private message or placed on the discussion forum. I fully appreciate that Facebook groups are widely used and enjoyed these days but this forum is not like those and frankly, that has been much of its success (over eight years and going stronger than ever!).
With the amount of editing I'm doing of late it's fast becoming a nigh on full time job so don't necessarily expect an explanation or indeed and answer to queries about missing post relating to anything breaching the guidelines.
Regulars will have noticed a fair bit of editing to this forum recently and quite frankly tough!
A minority of posts and posters have seemingly attempted to bring this forum down to Birdforum levels and if you don't know what I'm on about there, I suggest you take a look at the latter forum at the state of bickering, slanging and general pointless posts and threads on there which cloud the actual decent information within. To those users whose threads have been deleted as part of the 'discussion' but which were in themselves positive I apologise but I'd rather just delete all trace of absolute nonsense.
If people think I'm being OTT tough, I pay good money every month out of my own pocket for this forum (no it's not on a free site!) and will not see it reduced to bickering and a pointless barrage of posts. I truely enjoy the funny stuff and it's all definately part of the forum and Manchester Birding ethos but as grown adults we must surely know where the line is. That has, in itself, been breached more times in the past week than in the forum's history and frankly I'm really dissappointed about it all. It was not what I had envisaged and I will not let it carry on.
To that point, I will continue to delete anything I find or for that matter I think anyone else would find in the least bit offensive. I know a laugh and a bit of banter when I see it and positively encourage it but I have recieved more than a few complains recently and they were all justified. I will not be notifying folk I have deleted their posts, if I have then like it or lump it, it shouldn't have been on there.
I'm sorry it's come to this but hopefully atleast most of you can see where I'm coming from. This forum as become very popular and rightly so and I have great pride in the quailty of information and enjoyment in the posts on it. Don't lets spoil it now.
. The forum is an open resource for all, I could easily change it though (one button away!) so only registered users can view any of it, but I know there are many birders out there who use the forum but aren't registered and whilst they don't necessarily contribute themselves, I know they appreciate and value its worth so I certainly wouldn't want to exclude them.