Maybe wrong choice of words on my part Ian, daft and stubborn. What my point there was with the Arctic Warbler, just because someone else found it, I wasn't going to give it a miss and wait until I found my own, and neither were countless others present at Spurn that day. It was just to pick up on a point well put by Craig that if you are already on a reserve and something turns up...is it really twitching? I suppose we could argue that point all day and each have our own view.
As this thread has largely become about birdwatching being what you make it and quite rightly, in each to their own, then why should someone be daft or stubborn in not going to go and see something just because someone else found it? Surely that is their prerogative and they shouldn't be scorned upon in doing so?
Totally agree Craig in that you won't see me booking a chartered flight to a remote island(s) just to see one bird, maybe in years to come when I'm retired and have the time to do so. Besides, my tacho break is sometimes just enough time to find my own birds, not done too badly finding my own Gulls! Going to Spurn and listening for a radio call to see what's about is literally part of what Spurn is about, no shame in that, we've done it, and besides...travelling all that way and not go for a possible Lifer while you're there? Too right I am. Then there's a bit of miraculous luck every now and then like an Arctic Warbler turning up literally a few yards round the corner from where you are stood, personally I think you'd be daft or just plain stubborn not to go and see it simply because someone else found it. So in one way it could be classed as twitching as you didn't find it and you've gone to see it, but then on the flip side you didn't really travel to see the bird as you're already there, the verdict is out in that one!
Brian, a very open and honest opinion there and full respect to you for your view. But despite you not getting the same thrill from the everyday species of birds as you do the rare ones, what you did reveal in your post was that you still go out looking through those everyday species because your desire is to find a rare one, and the anticipation of finding it keeps you doing it.
One more point linked to this that I never mentioned, someone said to me in work Rob you must spend a fortune on petrol etc Well yes I have had a few repairs on both my cars recently but quite frankly they were things that could've happened on any car. As far as the petrol goes, if anyone comes with me then they do contribute, but my reply to the workmate was "I spent nowhere near as much as you did sat in a pub watching football and doing an all-dayer! Don't get me wrong, I like my football but other things sometimes take presidence. And it turned out I had spent less than him too!
enjoying this thread, i suppose birding has many different sides to it and whatever your interest in the hobby is then great.i know i fall into the twitching side of birding, it just gives an edge to the hobby that i enjoy, although i do think its important to have a local patch to give yourself a good grounding in birds, i personally can find patch working quite difficult because really good birds are few and far between, by good i mean rare, sadly i just dont get much enjoyment out of seeing the everyday birds, i still get the anticipation every time i go out that today could be the day when we find something good and i hope i never lose that, so i will be back on the patch in the morning, its mid may, who knows what we might find, probably nothing but you just never know.
-- Edited by brian fielding on Monday 15th of May 2017 10:15:42 PM
I think the devil is in the detail around what people class as twitching. If asked I will describe myself as a birder, not a twitcher. Do I twitch birds? Yes of course I do. But I will very rarely shoot off at a moments notice to see a rarity, and have hardly ever gone more that 100 or so miles round trip specifically to see someone elses bird. In fact the most 'twitching' I did was a couple of years ago trying to get my GM list up to 200. I eventually went to see the Pallid Harrier and I went out to look for the Osprey at Lightshaw yesterday. Similarly, when I'm at Spurn I will respond to calls on the radio and go to see whatever has been found (or not as the case may be). I consider all those instances to be twitching, but not in the same way that some people who readily charter a flight to Fair Isle just to see one bird.
Its only natural, as a birder to visit sites that are good for birds, and that fact means its also much more likely that something good will be there. American Wigeon at Leighton Moss, I went, I saw, I spent the day. Is that a twitch or a general birding visit? To be honest I'm not bothered either way.
I know may 'twitchers' or former twitchers and all are also excellent field birders, in fact they are some of the best birders I know. They have built their craft over years of birding local patches, visiting sites such as Spurn, other Observatories, Scotland etc. The only thing I'd say for definite is that if you don't learn the basics first you will miss out on a lot of pleasure and you will almost certainly never find that rarity on your local patch, because that requires hours of watching and being able to notice something unusual - not all rarities are stand out or obvious i.e a Spectacled Warbler or Semipalmated Plover both tricky to id.
Other than that who cares what label you might have?
If you want a bit of a laugh about Twitchers just type 'twitchers scillies 1995' into you tube and have a watch of the programme from 1995. Apart from anything else there are some familiar local(ish) faces on there, albeit with quite a bit more hair than they have now!!
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Monday 15th of May 2017 11:04:57 PM
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All the points being raised here are valid ones and as Richard says it's about what suits you. Just to clarify incase anyone thinks I only twitch, there's been countless times I've been birding with Simon Gough, Chris Chandler, and Steve Burke, whether it be to twitch or for a day trip at a random picked reserve and found our own birds.
The main point of me starting this thread was after after my visit to Flamborough and Spurn last weekend. After getting good views of the Siberian Stonechat, I did my post on here and I hold my hands up I honestly thought it was a subspecies I'd seen, so when Doc B said it was a full species it was only then that I found out it was infact recently elevated to that status otherwise I had no idea. Point being...I'd gone out with the intention of seeing that subspecies and absolute no intention of ticking it on my list as I don't do one and didn't know it was a species, I went out to enjoy that bird, and did so. Not to get a list up as mentioned below. I also enjoyed what I saw at Spurn and there was no ticking of any lists there either as I've seen those species before what I saw on that day. I MEAN...COME ON, WHO DOESN'T ENJOY A WRYNECK NO MATTER HOW MANY THEY'VE SEEN???
I went to Spurn yesterday again, mainly because I can...taking advantage of the gf working, I didn't see anything new but enjoyed what I saw, even called at Sunk Island and self found the Dotterel (obviously knew they were in the area but they took some finding). I've seen Dotterel before at confiding close quarters but that didn't stop me wanting to see them again so just incase anyone thinks "those who twitch don't enjoy their birds" I beg to differ on that one. I've seen plenty of Snow Bunting before too but it didn't stop me trapesing about a mile and half down to Middle Camp to see another one, it ultimately ended in failure as it didn't show but if you don't try then you know.
So I see all sides of the argument here, people find stuff and well done, people go and twitch stuff and well done to you too, if you didn't twitch anything...your listing would be a bit lower, either in-county or U.K. but those who say they don't twitch (and I don't see what the big No No stigma is here) don't let me see you at a twitch coz I will come over and ask you if you'd miraculously just happened to be there that day! I mean, how many people went to Audenshaw for Rob Adderley's Kentish Plover? A mate of mine was on the M60 and phoned me to say there were loads of birders lined up along the res edge. Not normally that many people up there unless IT'S A TWITCH. Same with the Pennington Manx Shearwater, apparently loads of people suddenly decided to visit that day, what's the chances of that unless of course there was a good bird to twitch. You see where I'm going with this, it makes me laugh when people say I DON'T TWITCH. But really, they do. Cheers
Many moons ago, when a Red-necked Grebe was present at Pennington Flash, a presumed twitcher came up to me and asked if it was still about and where he could see it. When I mentioned that it hadn't been seen that day, but that a Kingfisher was about on Pengy's pond, his reply "Oh! I've seen one of them!" spoke volumes for his attitude to other species. As it turned out, the grebe had moved to the far western end where it was close to a few Great Crested Grebes - a species which is always worth an appreciative look in spite of its presence throughout the year. Clearly, the stranger would have seen loads of those! Perhaps the great birdwatching joy of mooching about on a local patch and coming across something entirely unpredictable, irrespective of status, had never come his way!
Davids point here just brings it back to my post, because personally I love the experience of birding by just being out there with nature. My personal favourite is the seabirds; I find colonies of kittiwakes so addictive. But, if my gut tells me I want to find the Hoopoe at Royton I will do. But if I feel I won't enjoy a trip (such as the red throated pipit that was on the border with greater Manchester) I won't go there. This is why all our methods are different because each person will get a different thrill and type of enjoyment that others won't get out from the same bird or twitch. So what will work for one, will seem strange to another. The main thing is we can all enjoy our wonderful world in our own way as long as it shows respect for others as well as for the birds....
However, there is no shame in admitting (as I'm certain everyone has), about twitching a few birds. But whether it's on a regular basis in twitching or just the occasional few (like myself) for the experience, that's each to his/her own style..... ta!
-- Edited by Richard Thew on Monday 15th of May 2017 03:18:33 PM
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Spot on Steve- without people going out to find stuff on their patches, no-one else would know when something good turns up there.
The thing that puts me off 'hardcore' twitching (e.g. chartering a plane to Shetland to see a rarity), is it just seems to be about getting your life list to as many as possible, and not about enjoying birds in themselves. I've heard stories of twitchers taking taxis to see a rarity, get out, spot it, then hop straight back in the cab- if true, that's not my bag. I think it was David Lindo would said some twitches he went on felt like having a one night stand- he felt good at the time, but a bit empty afterwards!
As I've said before, I'll twitch stuff round South Manchester and a bit further afield if I can, but other than that, I'm not interested in travelling 100 miles or more- I'm more likely to enjoy going round Chorlton Ees on a nice day to see what pops up.
A valid point Rob, but you don't have to just go out on your local patch to find rare birds, where it might take a lifetime to find that Red-winged Blackbird. You can go to the East coast, Spurn or Norfolk and look there, when nothing has been reported. Thus increasing your chances.
I've regularly visited the Northumberland coast, we also have a caravan in Mid Wales, and I do most of my birding there. I live in Stockport, which doesn't tend to yield too many Megas, but then as Steve makes two very good points, you have to put the work in on the patch.
If I'm perfectly honest, the biggest appeal for me has always been the thrill of seeing something new or unusual or just unexpected or simply a bird I don't see very often.
The purists might disagree with that, but then it's each to his/her own. We all do birdwatching for our own reasons.
Spot on Brian. I totally agree and Stephen made some good points too, especially about the snobbery towards twitching. I think every birder I've ever met has twitched something at some stage and to be fair without twitching a bird, you'd never see half of the species you would want to see and the good thing is that you learn from it too with ID features for example.
As for local patching, nobody knows what can turn up at any given time so unless you get out there, you'll never find that suprise bird. You can't predict what will or won't turn up, birds have a strange habit of doing the unexpected, that's what makes the whole thing fascinating.
There's no right or wrong way, each individual does things how they want, I love the thrill of a twitch but am equally as excited about finding new birds at my local patch as well.
-- Edited by Phil Owen on Sunday 14th of May 2017 08:46:16 AM
-- Edited by Phil Owen on Sunday 14th of May 2017 08:59:53 AM
good thread, i think when it comes to birding its each to there own really, some people like to watch birds in there garden, some like to help conservation,some like bird photography, some like local patch and trying to find there own birds, some twitch and some don,t.i have a local patch and its difficult to find good birds so if you want to see a lot off different species or build up a big list then you have no choice but to twitch other peoples good finds, i twitched john raynors red throated pipit and he twitched my little bittern for example.my interest in birding now is my county list, so i try to see anything new in the county i have not seen before, for me i suppose its the thrill of the chase which up to present has got me to 235 species in greater manchester with the hope of one day seeing 250. i suppose birds and birding interests people in different ways and its a great hobby, cheers, brian.
This thread could roll and roll. You raise another point there Stephen, one which Simon Gough and myself have spoke about. You'd rather go and try finding your own rare species...well that's all well and good and things do turn up almost anywhere from time to time, but on the other hand you could bird the same patch for years in the hope of something rare turning up and seeing absolutely nothing in the way of a rare one.
I've heard the phrase "that area looks good for..." (pick your species) and I've often said it myself, but sometimes you got to think about the likelihood of it being there to find in the first place. If you see one reported (whatever the species) and you think oh there's one turned up at such a place, and it's within reach, wouldn't you rather go and at least try for it knowing there's a fair chance you could see it? Or would you rather stand firm and say No I'm going to find one for myself round the corner from my house, it might never happen!
Example...the first class Red-throated Pipit that John Raynor found up at Ludworth. Great find on a local patch. Loads of people went to twitch that, or did they all say NO I'll wait and find my own on my local patch but miraculously all decided to go for a walk up Ludworth Moor that particular day. Same with the Little Bittern at Elton that Brian Fielding found that Sunday morning, great find on a local patch, but had all the birders that were there that day really decided to go to Elton Reservoir at around 7.30am that Sunday morning just to go for a walk round to see what they could find on the off chance? And lastly for now...the Hoopoe at Royton, Oldham. Quite a few people there when we got there, and some got to see it before it flew off, had we all just gone for a walk round a housing estate because you never know what you might find?
Personally I've sometimes found some snobbery amongst the birdwatching community towards twitching ("Oh, I don't do twitching, I'm a birder") and all that sort of thing. I used to follow a birding blogger from the North East who, granted was a fantastic patch birder and found some great species on his patch, but would never waste an opportunity to criticise twitching and twitchers, especially if they were on his patch. However, if there was a decent twitch on, he'd be there, subsequently merrily reporting it on his blog. So I would say most birders secretly enjoy a good twitch.
I've been on a few twitches myself and find it extremely exciting, although I've never strayed too far from home. I think probably the Midlands is the furthest I've gone.
And the advantage is that the bird has usually been identified by many birders, so there's no doubt about the ID. I was recently walking alone in the Welsh hills and came across what I'm pretty sure was a Richard's Pipit. But as I wasn't confident enough to be 100% sure, so had it been a lifer, I probably wouldn't have added it to my list.
With regards listing, I keep a lifer list and a garden list. I would only do very local twitching these days if the opportunity arose, so my lifer list isn't growing too much, but if I'm honest, these days I much prefer just going out and trying to find my own rare species. That list is extremely short !!
Each to his own.
Cheers,
Steve.
-- Edited by Stephen Fuentes on Friday 12th of May 2017 11:56:37 AM
-- Edited by Stephen Fuentes on Friday 12th of May 2017 12:09:43 PM
Heyup, I think you've started something here Rob. Must admit I'm most intrigued by Robs method which goes to prove everybody views birding and handles it in different ways. I guess each person does so in a way to suit their own circumstances and character and what will seem like a good method to one will seem alien to another. Personally; I use 3 kinds of lists; primary my lifelist (for remembering those magic moments as to when and where), a year list (for documenting as to what comes in and when along with noticing patterns in the birds movements), and finally my favorate reserve trip list (including holidays) eg. Leighton moss I've seen 139 species over 15 years of visits averaging 3 times a year- as I'm NOT a twitcher by nature, non of my lists are not impressive, -but my experiences are! Ta!, Keep up with the good birding!!!!
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Which bird is ideal for keeping cakes in? I asked. The answer: a Bun-tin.
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This is the kind of topic I like...I'd thought of doing a post at one point about WHY people go birding...
To be honest Rob, I'm not much of a twitcher, but I guess it depends as what you class as a twitcher- if something cool turns up in my neck of the woods AND I have time, I'll go see it (like the Grasshopper Warbler in Fletcher Moss Park the other week), but I'm not going to drive for hours to see a bird which may have flown off by the time I get there (although I do regret not making the effort for those Bee-eaters in Cumbria a few years back).
I never really used to list, but I keep a garden list on my phone, I've started to compile a lift list and year list (which need adding to), in part using the Birdwatcher's Yearbook- to push me to get out and do more birding, especially when I get more time to (work as a teacher, so I have mad busy periods like now, and then the summer holidays with a lot more free time), I'm doing the #My200Year challenge from Bird Watching magazine- currently on 103 species for the year, in part bumped up by a New Year's Day stroll in Central Park in New York- not gonna get most of those birds this side of the Atlantic!
Ultimately, people bird for different reasons- like you Rob, I'm mates with Simon Gough, and me and him have had a few conversations on the topic- hardcore twitching isn't my thing, but I get why some people do it.
Cheers for that Doc, it's good to get stuff wrong from time to time as there will be an important feature that you missed that you probably won't miss again when making the next ID for that species.
That last sentance is something I've said about you before Rob, rather than just delete a post if you get an ID mixed up (and we all do that, all the time!) you hold your hands up and a huge credit to you for doing that too.
This is a reply to Doc Brewster's comment on the Flamborough thread earlier, I'll try to explain my reasons as best I can Doc as to why I don't do listing.
I don't do listing as a rule, whether it be day, year, county, or UK listing, I haven't even done a life list, I just know what I've seen and what I haven't if that makes any sense. I have done the occasional day list with Simon Gough, Chris Chandler and Steve Burke but in all honesty it was just a bit of fun. I should do a life list one day though, even if for nothing more than my own curiosity.
If a Lifer turns up, either locally (in the county), or in a neighbouring county, or even a bit further afield, and I want to go and see it, then I will pull out all the stops where I can and make every effort to do so. Following on from that, if a particular species turns up that I've already seen, I will go and see it if I fancy it, or I won't if I don't. An example to use of what I mean would probably be the Great Grey Shrike in the county not so long ago, would've been nice to see it in the county but mainly for work reasons and the fact I've already seen plenty of them, it didn't bother me one bit not going to see it. Similarly if I had chosen to go and see it but it had departed before I finished work or before I could get there, I won't lose any sleep over it. BUT if it would've been a Lifer and I was itching to see it then that would've got to me.
If there's things I've seen abroad but not in the UK then...again...it wouldn't bother me, it's not that I don't want to see them in the UK, it just wouldn't bother me.
Another point to raise here which in my view is linked to this and I've heard people say from time to time is "oh I don't do twitching, I just do birding". Surely every birder twitches? If a good bird turns up, especially in the county, are you telling me just the finder and whoever is there at the time will see the bird? No. Other birders hope it sticks around so they can twitch it, and besides, twitching gets your various list numbers up so twitching is a vital part of birding. Personally I see nothing wrong with it either, if you want to do it, Great! I do. I've also gone out and found things for myself too.
So there you go, a little bit of an insight into my birding, that's my take on it, it's an honest and quite frankly TRUE opinion of my hobby, one which my brilliant late Dad got me into at a very young age, not necessarily carried it on constantly through the years though. If you do lists then brilliant, if you don't then that's brilliant too. If you twitch then great. Do what suits you.
One last thing though, something I am very big on, and this is important I think. If I make a mistake with an identification then without any ounce of shame I will be the first one to hold my hands up and I have done publically on the forum too!
