Hi Mike,
A possibility I suppose but I think our M/C forum is probably one of the most popular ones.
Various sites we go to and people ask where we are from always say "oh do you go on the Manchester Birding Forum?" so it is well known and probably well read.
Birders (...or even photographers as described below) not from the area probably use the forum to get local info on a bird sighting to couple it with info on some of the national ones or indeed if they've not subscribed to a national one, so it's only my view but chances are people will have seen some kind of reference to the feeding of the Sabine's Gull.
Cheers
Rob

Despite all the concerns raised on this thread and the feeding of the Sabine's Gull last week, it would appear that it is still being fed!

Following this thread from afar and posting on a mobile so not ideal. Personally I think there is a huge difference in feeding to supplement a birds welfare (swans at wwf centres, garden feeding etc), feeding to allow birds to be captured for scientific study, rehab etc and throwing bread at an arctic vagrant. I was at the RFF in staffs at the same time as Doc and it was noticeable that 'birders' outnumbered 'photographers' and not a locust in sight. It is down to individuals I suppose to decide what is acceptable and what is not. In the instance of the Sabines, I can't see any argument for any sort of feeding whatsoever. I am in full agreement with Pete Berry too. Both camps (birders and photographers) have their bad apples, but speaking from experience it is invariably the photographers with no other optics that are the worst culprits for showing disregard for the bird and other people present. In the past this has usually been by trying to approach too close, now feeding seems to be the thing. Apparently there is a new name for this new breed - 'togs'. This isn't a dig at anyone personally, and inevitably there will be people who fall into one or more camps on different occasions. However, it's the ones that tend to hog the front line, ask what it is, where is it from, why is it here, where are the kingfishers and any other number of questions that tend to give the particular individuals away. There are many excellent birders come photographers and vice versa that manage excellent shots using knowledge and fieldcraft. The 'togs' should take a leaf out of their book.

Just check BirdGuides for the proudly presented picture of the Sabine's Gull carrying a lump of bread. When it arrived at Pennington Flash from the high Arctic it had never seen bread before. What a lucky immigrant making its first metaphorical trip to MacDonalds and well done to the presumed photographer who fed it. Frankly we should shun these people

Feeding 'inappropriate' food to birds is just plain wrong...period! But it happens and in the case of using bread it has probably, at some point, been done by 95% of us if not 100%, at some time. Perhaps less of an issue with wildfowl in harsh winter when bread (preferably with grain in it) is better than nothing! Probably OK when enticing an injured swan for capture.

Unfortunately this is a loaded thread, and rather than bringing folk together, is likely to polarise views and drive us apart and so I rhetorically ask the question... what's the point of it? If I come across what I consider to be inappropriate behaviour I usually speak to the individuals concerned in a polite and dignified manner in the hope of bringing them round to my way of thinking. And if I felt unable because I either lacked the spine or felt I just couldn't be bothered then I certainly would not go on a forum and preach about it! If the behaviour was criminal then I would certainly call the police and let them know that I would be prepared to give evidence in court. Which I have done on a number of occasions.

I did not attend the Red-footed Falcon twitch...I chose not to go. Feeding the bird with live locusts (if that was the case) would have been a criminal act since one would be releasing a non-native species into the wild.

I admit to having fed the Great Skua at Audenshaw res. I did so after speaking to a respected birder first...in fact feeding the bird was suggested to me. It was done with thought and discussion first. Whether it was right or wrong is debateable but in the circumstances and at the time I felt it justified. I rather tend to think that those who complained had their own selfish reasons for complaining, probably because they might have wanted the excitement/experience of watching a Skua chasing and killing gulls or feeding on dead gull carrion (probably infected with botulism after feeding at the local tip). Or perhaps they just did not like the perceived visual experience of anyone being close to the bird and in all honesty I have some sympathy with that argument. And for those who complained, are you without sin?

I am only too aware that questionable behaviour can be charged against both photographers and birders alike. I have witnessed the worst of it first hand, and I am, without doubt, of the opinion that there is an underbelly of self righteous hypocrites within the community who are out to make mischief and they are the worst (I level nothing at any person here). I have first hand experience of it. Then there are those who declare a self righteous attitude but when the opportunity arises and no one is looking they are the first to break the code. Again I have first hand experience of it, not mention the anecdotal evidence of others I am able to trust.

Threads such as this disappoint me because in reality they expose a dysfunction in our community that we could probably do without when there are bigger issues to concern ourselves with. We have Hen Harriers and other raptors poisoned and shot out of the sky in the UK, song birds and other forms shot out of the Mediterranean skies, pollution of the world's oceans with carbon dioxide, mercury and other toxic chemicals, plastics and the like as well as the scourge of global warming...the list goes on.

For myself the welfare of the bird is my mantra too and so is the welfare of all species of birds. In regard to both, I put more than my fair share of time in. I also put my hand in my pocket too. I am a photographer but I spend more time on conservation matters than I do photography. But as a photographer, I often get requests for images by charitable organisations, not just in the UK but worldwide. I have just received such a request now from Canada. These requests for images usually end up with a "sorry but we have no budget to pay for your images" despite the fact that there was a financial outlay as well as time and effort spent in getting them. Countless hours can be spent digging images out, processing and emailing them. So I do my bit, and I'm aware that others who may be the subject of criticism here, have done more than their fair share quietly and without seeking internet praise or exposure. And while I am at it, I did not see many from Manchester last year offering support at the 'Hen Harrier Day' when it was pissing down with rain! nor did I see many at a public enquiry I attended a while back

Rant over ....happy birding.

Paul Richardson wrote:

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It does make me wonder whether as birders we ought not to have some kind of tacitly agreed code of conduct - maybe that would just be unachievable!!

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Just such a code already exists Paul.

Cheers John

http://www.rspb.org.uk/discoverandenjoynature/discoverandlearn/funfactsandarticles/watchingbirds/code/

Anyone who thinks that their own personal gratification is more important than the welfare of the bird should be shunned. Certainly they should be deprived of financial gain through sales of any photographs obtained by dubious means (which may challenge the ethics of some wildlife publications). The trouble these days is that the old 'right and wrong' barometer has fallen off the wall.

In my opinion the main problem here is not the feeding of the bird,but the fact it is presumably being done by so called photographers who have NO fieldcraft,have NO thought for the birds welfare,and are only interested in getting a "better photograph".Almost everybody carries a camera nowadays and most birders are quite happy with a record shot for their own enjoyment,but there is definitely a number of people out there whose sole interest is getting the closest shot possible of the birds,and don't give a toss if they are causing it problems and distress,and in a number of cases flushing rare birds because of their insistence in trying to getting too near the bird.

I also object to the insinuation that I am not a proper birder. I have been watching birds for nearly 40 years

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Ivan, I am not sure whether this inference was extracted from my post, but it was not meant as a personal slight. I do not know you personally, so how could it be? There is nothing in your post that suggested you possessed a camera.

I was merely passing on my observations from the occasions I have encountered problems with birds being disturbed, and they have been without exception people that are more interested in the photo than the bird. I will call them once more, non-birding photographers, and they very rarely post. They tend to extract information from this forum, rather than contribute to it.

This debate will go and on. People have different views and most will probably not be swayed to change. I have no objection to,and have partaken myself in feeding to get a nice picture. Obviously unsuitable food should not be used, but again what is suitable, fish for a skua and insects for a red foot?? Bread is not a very suitable food for any bird, but as most eat it if they come across it they must like it.
The birds welfare is of course paramount and I will never put a picture first. The little bittern at elton was a good example. When I was there , there must have been 50 birders watching it from the dirt road. 3 photographers from Liverpool approached the bird from the res side. This caused great upset amongst the watching birders and lots of muttering -some of you may been there.I went up to the said photographers and explained to them what they were doing and asked them to return to the rest of us. None of the so called birders backed me up and no doubt had it turned nasty would have stood well back.
I also object to the insinuation that I am not a proper birder. I have been watching birds for nearly 40 years, I am not of the so called Manchester "elite" and have no intention of being one. I enjoy the birds and what I do. Some people also enjoy the photos I take and have said as much when they meet me.
I wish you all well , enjoy the birds. No more from me on the matter.

John Rayner wrote:

If this bird is to have any chance of survival it must find its way back to the open ocean. Feeding it is not going to help that. It used to be the birder's mantra, "The welfare of the bird comes first". Nowadays it seems to me that they are increasingly considered playthings to be manipulated.

Comparing this situation to the feeding of garden birds is ludicrous by the way. And, as an aside, the RSPB's own guidelines advise caution about the feeding inappropriate food to garden birds in spring and summer.

I could go on, but clearly some people think it acceptable to feed processed bread to a gull that should be in the high arctic, so I would be wasting my time.

Cheers John

Well said, John, I couldn't agree more! Surely there are many birders that feel uncomfortable at the 'luring' in of these scarce & rare birds, just so some of the photographers can get a shot a few metres closer than this bird was already coming without this 'feeding'. I visited the Red-footed Falcon early on & no feeding happened at all whilst I was there, but I heard all about it & that seemed very wrong. At Pennington Flash yesterday afternoon lots of processed white bread was being tossed a few feet out to lure the Sabine's Gull in closer & I agree this seemed very wrong too. OK bread was being thrown for the ducks further along off the car park & some may say the Sabine's could well have gone there to et that, but the duck feeding frenzies I saw when I walked back to the car probably put if off that location! As John says, enjoy it whilst it is there but for the birds well-being let it feed until it feels the urge to head back to the coast without stuffing it full of bread, delaying this departure & possibly causing harm to its health.

I rarely post on these supposed 'controversial' threads but the lack of posts in support of John made me do so this time! Well done again John for being the first to voice what many birders must feel


-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Wednesday 5th of August 2015 09:24:15 AM