grid references

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

RE: grid references

jason fisher · Status: Offline

Steve Atkins wrote:

jason fisher wrote:

Mark Rigby wrote:

For anybody using a smart phone there is an app called Gridpoint which gives you your current location to a 10 figure OS grid ref. Another useful App is called OS Converter which allows you to convert between OS grid ref and co ordinates.

ooh so you can denote the birds position on a piece of paper very accurately then.

Reporting a bird's location as 53.463 degrees north of the equator and 2.291 degrees west of the Greenwich meridian (another man made concept) is of no use to any of the above. Unless of course you want to waste your time converting it back to an OS grid ref.

Steve

i can however walk you right up to it and pointing down at the ground say it starts there that's the zero point, which means it is a real place, rather than a virtual point in paper space

-- Edited by jason fisher on Wednesday 11th of January 2012 08:44:48 PM

Steve Atkins · Status: Offline

jason fisher wrote:

Mark Rigby wrote:

For anybody using a smart phone there is an app called Gridpoint which gives you your current location to a 10 figure OS grid ref. Another useful App is called OS Converter which allows you to convert between OS grid ref and co ordinates.

ooh so you can denote the birds position on a piece of paper very accurately then.

As all Local Authority planning departments, ecological consultants, developers, government agencies such as Natural England and local wildlife trusts and national conservation organisations, use maps (whether in paper format, or on GIS), then being able to denote a bird's position on either a computer screen or paper map is of vital importance in species conservation. An example of how maps are used in conservation can be found on the RSPB's website Bird Conservation Targeting Project

The BTO/JNCC/RSPB Breeding Bird Survey is based on OS Grid Ref 1km squares and this provides data of key importance to conservation.
BBS

Reporting a bird's location as 53.463 degrees north of the equator and 2.291 degrees west of the Greenwich meridian (another man made concept) is of no use to any of the above.

Unless of course you want to waste your time converting it back to an OS grid ref.

Steve

jason fisher · Status: Offline

Mark Rigby wrote:

For anybody using a smart phone there is an app called Gridpoint which gives you your current location to a 10 figure OS grid ref. Another useful App is called OS Converter which allows you to convert between OS grid ref and co ordinates.

ooh so you can denote the birds position on a piece of paper very accurately then.

Steve Atkins · Status: Offline

Mark Rigby wrote:

For anybody using a smart phone there is an app called Gridpoint which gives you your current location to a 10 figure OS grid ref. Another useful App is called OS Converter which allows you to convert between OS grid ref and co ordinates.

Thanks for the info Mark. The app appears to be a free download which can be found here GridPoint GB

So once all the GM birders with smartphones have downloaded the app they will be able to submit their records with 6 or 8 figure grid refs. For most species the site name is sufficient. However, for Schedule 1 and UK Biodiversity Action Plan Priority species, a grid ref adds significant value to the record.

The species lists can be found here: Schedule 1 & UK BAP bird species

There is no need to use a 10 figure grid ref (accurate to 1 metre) as this will show your location rather than the bird's, unless of course it's perched on your head

Steve

Steve Suttill · Status: Offline

Steve Atkins wrote:

OS grid refs.

I agree Steve that birds aren't concerned with spatial reference systems, other than the stars, sun and moon. However, if we want to protect them, it's important that we know where they are.

Steve

We do know where they are Steve - on the GMBRG database on your computer

Which reminds me - time to enter up all my 2011 records and send them to the County recorder!

Cheers, Steve

Mark Rigby · Status: Offline

For anybody using a smart phone there is an app called Gridpoint which gives you your current location to a 10 figure OS grid ref. Another useful App is called OS Converter which allows you to convert between OS grid ref and co ordinates.

Steve Atkins · Status: Offline

Whilst I do not claim to be an expert (on any subject!), I have been using a GPS for wildlife recording, for the past 6 years, and think it was well worth the investment of £130. It was originally purchased to work out a BBS transect route across an almost featureless expanse of moorland. As well as reading latitude and longitude, it can be set to the grid system of whichever country you happen to be in.

To answer Jason's original question that started off this thread. The OS grid system is certainly not arcane, as it is currently used by many organisations. It's not just birdwatchers but all UK biological recorders that use OS British National grid references to pinpoint the locations of species. The interactive map on the NBN website NBN Gateway allows you to zoom into any area of the country and look at the distribution of an individual species. The mapping is either at 10km square or 2km square resolution; these squares are based on the national grid.

All atlases of UK flora and fauna, including our own Breeding Birds of Greater Manchester (BBGM) published in 1984 and the first Atlas of Breeding Birds in Britain and Ireland published by the BTO in 1976, use either 10km grids (national maps) or 2km grids (county maps). This has always been considered the best way to represent the distribution of individual species. Latitude and longitude coordinates allow a precise location to be plotted. However, if the precise location of every record collected for an atlas was plotted on a small scale map, using latitude and longitude, you would end up with an unintelligible mass of dots on the species distribution maps.

Most recording groups (including GMBRG) use databases to store their records which are entered using grid references. Thankfully the days of card indexes are long gone! So another good reason to use OS grid refs.

Many people now use smart phones with a built in GPS which give readings in lat./long. There is an excellent website Where's the path which enables you to read off the location of a record using either coordinate system. From a quick search of Apple's app store there doesn't (for the moment at least) appear to be an app which allows locations to be converted to OS National Grid. However, you can also use the OS website's coordinate transformer OS Convertor

By the way Keith, it may not surprise you to know that the French already have their own meridian which runs through Paris!

I agree Steve that birds aren't concerned with spatial reference systems, other than the stars, sun and moon. However, if we want to protect them, it's important that we know where they are.

Happy New Year to all GM Birders

Steve

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

I like the way you're thinking there Steve

Frankly, there's nothing better than leaving the phone at home along with any of that other stuff and just getting out with your binoculars and enjoying the birds. Afterall, that IS what it's all about

Steve Suttill · Status: Offline

Latitudes, longitudes, OS grid references, maps, GPS, smartphones, county boundaries - all human inventions which mean nothing whatsoever to birds! They don't even know it's New Years Day

Best site location system seems to be directions from the nearest pub - though they are getting fewer and further between

Steve

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Mike Chorley wrote:

keith mills wrote:

Paul Heaton wrote:

keith mills wrote:
There must be an expert on the Forum!

Steady on keith expert, now thats asking for something big

--------------------------------------------------------
Agreed Paul,but I remain Hopeful!

By the by: Arcane...as used at the start of this thread,apparently stems
from the Latin ...Arcanus...meaning to ''shut up''
So I shall set off for Mast Road.

-- Edited by keith mills on Saturday 31st of December 2011 01:13:43 PM

or more strictly 'A mystery'

-- Edited by Mike Chorley on Saturday 31st of December 2011 09:17:22 PM

------------------------------------------------------
You've nailed it Mike, Its all a Mystery!
Lat/Long: Captain Cook And all that Sextant stuff.. Gaping spaces on OS maps! All we need is an OS Satellite up in orbit coping with with Grid References.

Mike Chorley · Status: Offline

keith mills wrote:

Paul Heaton wrote:

keith mills wrote:
There must be an expert on the Forum!

Steady on keith expert, now thats asking for something big

--------------------------------------------------------
Agreed Paul,but I remain Hopeful!

By the by: Arcane...as used at the start of this thread,apparently stems
from the Latin ...Arcanus...meaning to ''shut up''
So I shall set off for Mast Road.

-- Edited by keith mills on Saturday 31st of December 2011 01:13:43 PM

or more strictly 'A mystery'

-- Edited by Mike Chorley on Saturday 31st of December 2011 09:17:22 PM

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Paul Heaton wrote:

keith mills wrote:
There must be an expert on the Forum!

Steady on keith expert, now thats asking for something big

--------------------------------------------------------
Agreed Paul,but I remain Hopeful!

By the by: Arcane...as used at the start of this thread,apparently stems
from the Latin ...Arcanus...meaning to ''shut up''
So I shall set off for Mast Road.

-- Edited by keith mills on Saturday 31st of December 2011 01:13:43 PM

Paul Heaton · Status: Offline

keith mills wrote:
There must be an expert on the Forum!

Steady on keith expert, now thats asking for something big

Keith Mills · Status: Offline

Grid references and Maps are very useful while fell walking ,cycling or
birding.
Two years ago I bought my first Satnav (TOM TOM) and was surprised to
find that it new nothing about Grid References.
The input allowed being for Latitude and Longitude.
All I recall about Lat./Long is being taken as a child to stand on the 0 degree Longitude line at the Greenwich Meridian and told it was a British invention.
(Although I have read recently that the French are trying to get the Meridian moved)
Grid references appear limited to Britain. Am I right?
As my Mobile is also tracking my every movement in GPS/ Lat/Long I was beginning to feel I needed a brush up on it all, before this thread started.
There must be an expert on the Forum!

-- Edited by keith mills on Saturday 31st of December 2011 10:19:27 AM

Mark Rigby · Status: Offline

Food for thought.

Technology is great,but, books dont need a power source and can be read when there is a power cut and they don't rely on 'signal strength' so can still be read at remote locations, such as Wigan!

Paul Heaton · Status: Offline

Gentlemen I dont think we can hide from the digital revolution, I cannot believe the speed in which the world is changing, I was criticized the other day for saying I was taping a programme on telly, apparently you Sky plus it now?

The benefits of modern tech cannot be ignored, but to be honest there is still a large army of die hards who will always hold onto the good reliable things in life, pen paper notebooks, field guides, when did they ever need charging.

As for books, well Ians' habits are nothing compared to mine, and I will never except that the demon kindle or E-book is a better option.

I did have a discussion years ago about ringers, and that fact that in years to come a micro-chip will be placed inside the ring, enabling the birder to locate said bird, once that happens on a bigger scale then birding as we know it ends.

Stay in the dark ages and enjoy birding for what it should be.

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

Dean Macdonald wrote:

Anything like MP3 or MP4? Don't even need to enter a shop these days.

Nope nothing like that. They physically exist and they sound good

You can buy em online too but they won't fit through the letter box

And if its a Yes,or Genesis album with a gatefold sleeve,you will need the length of a room just to open the beggar,and a few hours to study the paintings and lyrics

yep give me Vinyl anyday,and don't forget the penny taped to the needle arm to stop it jumpin

Dean Macdonald · Status: Offline

Anything like MP3 or MP4? Don't even need to enter a shop these days.

Nope nothing like that. They physically exist and they sound good

You can buy em online too but they won't fit through the letter box

Adam Jones · Status: Offline

Anything like MP3 or MP4?

Don't even need to enter a shop these days.

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

Adam Jones wrote:

What's vinyl?

OMG...err, I mean 'oh my God'...

Adam Jones · Status: Offline

What's vinyl?

Steve Suttill · Status: Offline

Ian McKerchar wrote:

Fact to all this is it's an entirely personal thing. I really love the smell of books (Steve Suttill will testify my quest for a new report printers via smell amongst other things )

I've got to admit to being a bit worried about Ian's book sniffing habit

It's almost as barmy as gull watching

Steve

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

Dean Macdonald wrote:

You should know John, that no matter how good digital music sounds it still can't compare to vinyl on a good system. Sorry, that's a fact!

You're not wrong there Ian

I suppose my generation(pushing 50) is stuck between 2 stools. We grew up with the old stuff vinyl, vhs, paper books, tv's with no remotes. 35mm films that you had to wait a week to get developed then couldn't alter them if they were crap. So we have to adapt. My sons, 19 and 18 have never had the pleasure of bringing a 12" LP home then gently placing the needle in the groove and sitting down for 20 mins to admire the artwork on the sleeve and read the lyrics, they were big enough to see. Then getting up to turn it over.
Anyway, i digress. I have a smartphone which is great for the web and the maps etc but i don't like touch screens so zooming and expanding is a pain. Using a field guide on it when your hands are freezing doesn't sound appealing and bright sun i can't see the screen anyway. However i have bird songs on it which works well.The battery life is also a problem. I also own a kindle which is fantastic for reading novels but a black and white feild guide? not for me.
I like a best of both worlds. The quality of the artwork in a coffee table bird guide and the convience of getting a pic on the internet while in the field. The warmth and depth of vinyl and convenience of having a 16gb memory stick with hundreds of cds on it in the car. I can go out and take 500 photos and find about 3 that are actually any good
20 yrs form now people might not have as many options, i know i've listened to 2112

Happy New Year

2112 my childhood in one record-love every minite
we are 2 of a kind,I agree with every word

Dean Macdonald · Status: Offline

You should know John, that no matter how good digital music sounds it still can't compare to vinyl on a good system. Sorry, that's a fact!

You're not wrong there Ian

I suppose my generation(pushing 50) is stuck between 2 stools. We grew up with the old stuff vinyl, vhs, paper books, tv's with no remotes. 35mm films that you had to wait a week to get developed then couldn't alter them if they were crap. So we have to adapt. My sons, 19 and 18 have never had the pleasure of bringing a 12" LP home then gently placing the needle in the groove and sitting down for 20 mins to admire the artwork on the sleeve and read the lyrics, they were big enough to see. Then getting up to turn it over.
Anyway, i digress. I have a smartphone which is great for the web and the maps etc but i don't like touch screens so zooming and expanding is a pain. Using a field guide on it when your hands are freezing doesn't sound appealing and bright sun i can't see the screen anyway. However i have bird songs on it which works well.The battery life is also a problem. I also own a kindle which is fantastic for reading novels but a black and white feild guide? not for me.
I like a best of both worlds. The quality of the artwork in a coffee table bird guide and the convience of getting a pic on the internet while in the field. The warmth and depth of vinyl and convenience of having a 16gb memory stick with hundreds of cds on it in the car. I can go out and take 500 photos and find about 3 that are actually any good

20 yrs form now people might not have as many options, i know i've listened to 2112

Happy New Year

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

It's worth pointing out in this that paper for books is generally now either grown from sustainable stocks (therefore actually benefiting the Enviroment) or from recycled paper.

You should know John, that no matter how good digital music sounds it still can't compare to vinyl on a good system. Sorry, that's a fact!

Fact to all this is it's an entirely personal thing. I really love the smell of books (Steve Suttill will testify my quest for a new report printers via smell amongst other things

) of being able to rapidly flick from one section to another if I'm comparing things, of having half a dozen open on my desk at once, of being able to sit with a brew and a heafty tome cutting the circulation off in my legs, of just going to the bookcase and thumbing through the books in there. Frankly, as someone admittedly reliant on computer and mobile phone, I like to be away from them, free of cables, off buttons, of screens. Books are my vinyl, they won't be replaced for me I'm afraid for nothing comes close to the 'experience' they bring.

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

Louise Aspden wrote:

I like to turn pages, and I get nearly all my books from the library so no additional drain on the environment.

No Kindles for me.

I am sure eventually in the not too distant future,printed paper will go the same way as LP records,or Betamax tapes,or house brick sized mobile phones ,and at some point Annual reports etc will be only available as downloads as will daily newspapers.I watch star trek,so i know what im on about

Louise Aspden · Status: Offline

I like to turn pages, and I get nearly all my books from the library so no additional drain on the environment.

No Kindles for me.

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

for fiction or biographies kindles are brilliant and must be better than choppin trees down fer books,its got to be the future,expecially for read once fiction books

and the screen is the same size as a paperback book,and doasn't blow away int wind.

I am sure eventually in the not too distant future,printed paper will go the same way as LP records,or Betamax tapes,or house brick sized mobile phones ,and at some point Annual reports etc will be only available as downloads as will daily newspapers.I watch star trek,so i know what im on about

But for now grid references are the norm,and will be until everyone has access to something better.

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Friday 30th of December 2011 06:43:16 PM

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

Having been an iPhone user for over three years now Paul, I find trying to read books on its small screen rather absurd. I either have to use my binocs from a distance to read the tiny print of a full page or constantly zoom in/out, up, down, across. It's just not for me and looking at the current book titles available in good old paper against those available for electronic devises, I'm not the only one either

Paul Wilson · Status: Offline

Ian McKerchar wrote:

Birding (briding) obsession?

I wonder how many birders use an iPad or Kindle to read their books now?

Not many - we mainly use our iPhones to read books - and carry our pics and field guides on - oh, and our stock of bird calls!

Steve Suttill · Status: Offline

Ian McKerchar wrote:

It's not just birders either, walkers still like to use maps too. Perhaps sometimes we just like or find it difficult to let go of the 'old ways'? I wonder how many birders use an iPad or Kindle to read their books now? I know I don't and never bloody will either

Good to hear the voice of sanity now and then

Steve

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

Birding (briding) obsession?

It's certainly not an obsession Jason. Grid references are merely used because that's the way it always has been, long before GPS ever became available to the masses. It's reliable, cheap, the majority of birders have one, easy to use and works. So, what's the problem? Yes, GPS is more accurate and no doubt has other advantages but currently few birders have access to the hardware to use the coordinates. I've no doubt at some time in the near future there'll be a rapid change to GPS but currently at least, maps are used because everyone has access to them, at home, in the car or out in the field.

It's not just birders either, walkers still like to use maps too. Perhaps sometimes we just like or find it difficult to let go of the 'old ways'? I wonder how many birders use an iPad or Kindle to read their books now? I know I don't and never bloody will either

jason fisher · Status: Offline

what is briding obseesion, with quoting some arcane grid ref, we have a perfectly usable system of coordinates, which tie a series of numbers to a definite position on the surface of the planet with absolute scientific accuracy, yet for some mysterious reason, birders rely on some system which ties their sighing to a position on a piece of paper, why is this? it is something that baffles me.