i have enjoyed reading the various replys and out looks in this topic, being a dog walker, birder, and senior countryside ranger managing several sites.
as far as i am concerned i manage all my sites for the benefit of WILDLIFE, and anything else outside of this has an impact, whether it be walkers, cyclist, dog walkers, bird watchers or any other visitor to the sites. but the simple fact is that people want to come out into the country side even if it's just to their local nature reserve.
i see children running up and down banking enjoying themselves but unfortunatelly sometime this has the unfortunate result of damaged flora and disturbed wildlife.
where do you draw the line? constntly saying you can't do this or you can't do that has a negative effect and the best way to deal with it is not to ban the kids it's to try to teach them why they should not be running up and down where they are and try to point them to a less sensitive area.
I think this thread may be coming to the end of it's life as we seem to have exhausted most reasonable points and barring a public slanging match from both sides (which should be done by forming a big circle by Scotmans Flash and shouting 'fight fight fight') we have a difference of opinion, although Rob is right that his original post to this thread seems to have grown arms and legs and has been misinterpreted (or manufactured) into a hatred post against all dog owners.
But it's a colourful world, we all have our opinion (for it would be a miserable world with out it) and everyone loves a bit of banter (right?), but let's make sure that, on this forum atleast, that's all it is. Time to leave Mr.T (gettid, BA Baracus, Mr.T....The A team....Mr.T, Thorpe...No? Just me then ) to give those crazy high viz jacket wearing fools at the Wigan Flashes some of his jibber jabber.
I haven't once said that any reserve should be open to just birders! Nor have I ever said that all dog owners are irresponsible! The point I was trying to make, which has been taken well out of context, is that there are a lot of idiots who use our local reserves, which is detrimental to the very wildlife these reserves are supposed to be protecting. I was simply making the point that a nature reserve is not the ideal place for exercising a dog... I bet non of you think the RSPB are "bonkers", or "need to get a life" when they don't allow dogs on their reserves! People seem to be calling me selfish, thinking that I want the area to myself...? Have you actually read any of my posts on this thread??? I'm making the point that it is selfish of people to place personal enjoyment of the area as more important than the welfare of the wildlife. How much more successful would the Wigan Bitterns be if it wasn't for the constant stream of people (birders included) walking right through the reedbeds at Pearson's Flash!?
just wonder what mr thorpe would think of me.i love birdwatching.but own two border terriers.i pick their crap up and dont hang it in a tree or on a fence.i dont think im out of the ordinary either.most dog owners are responsible and do exactly as i do.i think he has summed us all up by one or two yobbos with short hair and even shorter i qs.how terribly selfish his attitude is.in case nobodys told you rob dogs love the countryside.my dogs are 12 years old and to my certain knowledge havent killed a single bird yet.oh and by the way i also like fishing and have seen cormorants devastate fisheries.but that probably doesent bother you insomuch as you probably dont like fishermen as well.so to sum up lets ban all humans from enjoying the flashes except birders in case someone gives them a funny look because theve got bins and a scope.get a life lad the countryside is there for all responsible people to share.rant over.
-- Edited by fred fouracre on Thursday 21st of January 2010 12:48:50 AM
And while we all reflect on the right,s and wrongs of our 'nature reserves'and access to them there are quite a few of us old enough to remember that if you scratch the surface of our birding hotspots you,ll find our industrial heritage poking out.
But Pennington certainly isn't actually a nature reserve as such. The 'nature reserve' section of the flash emcompasses the areas fenced off (now complete with hedges too) which can be overlooked by the hides. They are inaccessible by humans and dogs for all intents and purposes, which in this day and age they have to be! Which brings us round to Lightshaw really Rob as a prime example. Something we as birders are agreed on atleast
There are unfortunately more things at play here than just us birders and as much as we might like these places to ourselves it ain't never not no going to happen. Wigan Flashes nor Pennington Flash are no worse now (wildlife wise) than when dogs and their walkers were less of a problem. If I were you Rob I'd give that skin-headed fellow a good piece of your mind about his actions, and those conspicuity jacket wearing chaps (known as robbing coats in Manchester ) a good dressing down. Both will undoubtably appreciate it and suddenly realise the error of their ways, thanking you as they are consumed with the feeling of empowerment towards their new outlook to their lives and that of their fellow folk. Anyone remember The A team? If you have a problem, if no one else can help and if you can find him, maybe you can hire, Rob Thorpe.....da da da daaaaa, d da daaa....
It seems to me we need the on-set of spring to take our mind off such things and onto decent birding again
But Pennington certainly isn't actually a nature reserve as such. The 'nature reserve' section of the flash emcompasses the areas fenced off (now complete with hedges too) which can be overlooked by the hides. They are inaccessible by humans and dogs for all intents and purposes, which in this day and age they have to be! Which brings us round to Lightshaw really Rob as a prime example. Something we as birders are agreed on atleast
There are unfortunately more things at play here than just us birders and as much as we might like these places to ourselves it ain't never not no going to happen. Wigan Flashes nor Pennington Flash are no worse now (wildlife wise) than when dogs and their walkers were less of a problem. If I were you Rob I'd give that skin-headed fellow a good piece of your mind about his actions, and those conspicuity jacket wearing chaps (known as robbing coats in Manchester ) a good dressing down. Both will undoubtably appreciate it and suddenly realise the error of their ways, thanking you as they are consumed with the feeling of empowerment towards their new outlook to their lives and that of their fellow folk. Anyone remember The A team? If you have a problem, if no one else can help and if you can find him, maybe you can hire, Rob Thorpe.....da da da daaaaa, d da daaa....
It seems to me we need the on-set of spring to take our mind off such things and onto decent birding again
I think the point seems to have been somewhat missed here... I would never expect any site to be managed for birdwatchers any more than for anyone else. What I would expect is that nature reserves are managed for nature. I personally prefer birding at sites without hides and a tea room etc. It seems to me that this conversation has developed a birders vs dog walkers angle, who should the site be managed for etc... If a site is designated as a nature reserve then why can't it be managed as such? I do understand that important revenue is generated by car parking etc. but humans already dominate every corner of Greater Manchester with houses, shops, roads, car parks etc etc etc. We have parks, cinemas, shopping centres all kinds of entertainment... But we still think it's acceptable for wildlife to be disturbed so that we can walk our dogs in the few undeveloped areas left, the few remaining wildlife havens! Surely we have a responsibility to all the creatures we have displaced through our greed. There should be areas completely set aside for wildlife, with no public access of any sort. If birders can view this site from a safe distance then that's great!
-- Edited by Rob Thorpe on Wednesday 20th of January 2010 04:08:19 PM
I have somewhat enjoyed this thread from my position on the fence as usual but Pete makes some excellent points in his last post, particularly of 'our' contribution to our hobby. Wigan Council make a good revenue from the car park at Pennington (which in a round about way goes back into the running and up-keep of the nature reserve), mainly from dog-walkers and day-tripping public, yet there have been several posts on this forum previously, informing birders of where to park other than the main car park so's you don't have to spend £1 on all-day parking We (quite rightly) like to sit in bunting hide and watch the excellent display of birds there but don't seem inclined to contribute in any way to the what must be the very high cost of all the food put out there for them
On a circuit around Pennington today there were only 4 birders including myself present. There were however 11 dog owners with 13 dogs! We birders are in the minority in most, if not all, public parks and the likes in our county, at any time (barring a county mega ) any day, any month. Even at sites like Audenshaw Reservoir! It makes me wonder why 'we' feel these locations such as Pennington and Wigan Flashes (plus Elton, Audenshaw etc) are 'ours'? Which came first, the birder or the dog-walker?
I haven't read the Australian 'dog study' as I was washing my hair at the time but at Pennington Flash atleast, the impact of dogs on the wildlife of the area is negligible at best and long-term, most probably non-existant.
Sure the dog-mess annoys me as does the seemingly increasing and equally bizarre and disgusting habit of owners who pick it up into a bag and then hang it from branches . Sure some dogs jump up at you and others can be intimidating, especially to children. As has been said a couple of times already in this thread though, it is the owners at fault, not the dogs and education (or a good slap ) of some form is required.
Personally, I don't notice them and I certainly don't let it or them bother me. Many of the dog walkers around the flash are daily regulars with a good understanding and enjoyment of wildlife. They are considerate and pleasant folk but it is the minority which spoil it. A bit like birding really...
The Wigan Flashes LNR is not a Country Park, it is a Local Nature Reserve. Wigan Flashes LNR is "managed" by Lancashire Wildlife Trust. Here is a question... Why is it perfectly reasonable for dogs to be banned from South Walney Nature Reserve (for example), managed by Cumbria Wildlife Trust (and this ban is year-round, not just in the breeding season), but you find it "bonkers" that I suggest the same for the Wigan Flashes? Surely in such a densely populated county as Greater Manchester it is even more important that our wildlife has a 'safe haven'. Dogs are very damaging, even when on a lead (see the link on the Lightshaw discussion about the study done in Australia), so I don't understand why what I have suggested is so unreasonable...
Because I think it is totally unrealistic Rob. I regularly go to Wigan flashes and its frequented by members of the public most of whom are dog walkers people with young kids or in the summer cyclists. To start a campaign to remove them is madness. The answer must be education so I would support signs in sensitive areas which I think might be a good idea.
If you really feel strongly about it then start a petition / campaign. Good luck with it but I personally think you will fail. And it will do birders no good at all us being seen as troublemakers and slightly dotty. Birders are not born birders, members of the public go birding and birders are members of the public. If some of those kids or dog walkers develop an appreciation of the countryside then there is the birders of the future. Incidentally many of the posters on this site do so from views while walking their dogs. BTW I am not a dog owner so have no personal axe to grind
John Tymon made a point about revenue. How many birders contribute anything other than pennies to our hobby? We can happily pay thousands for the latest Kowa or Leica but contribute almost nothing in licence fees. I too am guilty as charged here I am a member of two private reserves but pay the princely sum of £20 to be in both of them. £20 absolute nothing! and I bet you I pay more than most. Penny, WF, Lightshaws etc are all free.
My other hobby is fishing and I know you think that makes me the spawn of the devil. But to give you an idea my licences there come to about £400 per year (including EA licence £70) and fishing is relatively a cheap hobby compared to other pastimes such as golf.
So unless we are prepared to stump up much much more we desperately need the public to subsidise us whether its owned by the council or whoever.
Thorpe an excellent post and one I agree with 100%. Its rational and fair minded and not in any way bonkers. Wigan MBC manages both Pennington and Wigan Flashes funded by council tax. Quite why these people think this gives them the right to walk their dogs in the country parks is unfathomable. Only the other day I was almost bowled off my feet by a troublesome Labrador while scanning the teal at Horrocks Flash. The wayward beast was running in all directions and even wagging its tail a practice I find both pointless and irritating.
Its all very disconcerting, a very bad show all round.
Its easy to rant on here which is frequented by small number of local birders.
We need a proper public campaign Dogs out of our country parks.
Mr Thorpe you sound like just the man to lead it.
The Wigan Flashes LNR is not a Country Park, it is a Local Nature Reserve. Wigan Flashes LNR is "managed" by Lancashire Wildlife Trust. Here is a question... Why is it perfectly reasonable for dogs to be banned from South Walney Nature Reserve (for example), managed by Cumbria Wildlife Trust (and this ban is year-round, not just in the breeding season), but you find it "bonkers" that I suggest the same for the Wigan Flashes? Surely in such a densely populated county as Greater Manchester it is even more important that our wildlife has a 'safe haven'. Dogs are very damaging, even when on a lead (see the link on the Lightshaw discussion about the study done in Australia), so I don't understand why what I have suggested is so unreasonable...
The canal towpath going through the flashes probably prevents a ban on dogs,and as stated earlier at penny without the revenue from the parking ,there would be no nature reserve/hides etcMoore nature reserve in warrington accomodate dogs with a large area they can go loose on ,but on the reserve they are not allowed.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 20th of January 2010 11:53:40 AM
The Wigan Flashes LNR is not a Country Park, it is a Local Nature Reserve. Wigan Flashes LNR is "managed" by Lancashire Wildlife Trust. Here is a question... Why is it perfectly reasonable for dogs to be banned from South Walney Nature Reserve (for example), managed by Cumbria Wildlife Trust (and this ban is year-round, not just in the breeding season), but you find it "bonkers" that I suggest the same for the Wigan Flashes? Surely in such a densely populated county as Greater Manchester it is even more important that our wildlife has a 'safe haven'. Dogs are very damaging, even when on a lead (see the link on the Lightshaw discussion about the study done in Australia), so I don't understand why what I have suggested is so unreasonable...
Totally agree, & I never take my dog to sensitive areas, it is definitely about educating the owners & you need agency/council backing to do that (a brick wall to bang head helps too.)
Thorpe an excellent post and one I agree with 100%. Its rational and fair minded and not in any way bonkers. Wigan MBC manages both Pennington and Wigan Flashes funded by council tax. Quite why these people think this gives them the right to walk their dogs in the country parks is unfathomable. Only the other day I was almost bowled off my feet by a troublesome Labrador while scanning the teal at Horrocks Flash. The wayward beast was running in all directions and even wagging its tail a practice I find both pointless and irritating.
Its all very disconcerting, a very bad show all round.
Its easy to rant on here which is frequented by small number of local birders.
We need a proper public campaign Dogs out of our country parks.
Mr Thorpe you sound like just the man to lead it.
The Wigan Flashes LNR is not a Country Park, it is a Local Nature Reserve. Wigan Flashes LNR is "managed" by Lancashire Wildlife Trust. Here is a question... Why is it perfectly reasonable for dogs to be banned from South Walney Nature Reserve (for example), managed by Cumbria Wildlife Trust (and this ban is year-round, not just in the breeding season), but you find it "bonkers" that I suggest the same for the Wigan Flashes? Surely in such a densely populated county as Greater Manchester it is even more important that our wildlife has a 'safe haven'. Dogs are very damaging, even when on a lead (see the link on the Lightshaw discussion about the study done in Australia), so I don't understand why what I have suggested is so unreasonable...
In conclusion i,d still say it,s the owners not the dogs that are the problem.
It's always the bloomin owners! & yes I do have a dog! Try pushing a pram and walking toddlers to school- its a nightmare for dog poo. (don't get me started on that one) But, I do think more signs about dogs & leads or maybe 'responsible dog walkers welcome' or something would help. After all, it was partly through walking my dog as a kid that got me into birding. Unfortunately not many people these days just go for a 'walk'. Dogs get people out of the house, encourage exercise, companionship & with the added bonus of introducing their owners to nature. Plus many people do feel safer and more confident about going for a wander in their local park. Just clear up the bloomin poo....grumble, grumble, oh & keep them on a lead as I am fed up of 'friendly' dogs jumping all over my little kids especiallly when the dog is often bigger than them! (I'll go back in my little box now )
Just for the record i,m not some dog hating psycho on a mission,but there,s a time and a place for everything and dogs and nature reserves don,t go together.That said the tide is to big to resist and educating the dog walkers is the only option left,there are some reserves with signs asking that dogs are kept on a lead during the nesting season and maybe thats the best we can hope for.Just for balance (and some brownie points off the missus) I borrowed next doors dog tonight and took it for a wander round Horrocks on the leash all the time (it toilets at home for no,s 2 so no bag needed) strange to find that if this is an average dog?? without any great trouble just gentle tugs on the lead it was walking to heel ,sitting (yes sitting) and generally behaving.In conclusion i,d still say it,s the owners not the dogs that are the problem.
At least dogs don't kill over 50 million birds each year,like cats do.They also don't kill millions of small rodents,depriving Owls and Kestrels of vital food.
Perhaps we shouldn't have encouraged them to hang around for all those thousands of years, killing the birds & small mammals trying to eat our grain stores, a job we still get them to do all around the world? Whereas dogs had their instincts blunted as soon as someone realised it wasn't that clever to have an animal with strong hunting instincts guarding your livestock
As with dogs' 'bad'behaviour, it's not the cats, it's the owners who don't think about the consequences of what they get up to when they're let out
-- Edited by Mike Chorley on Tuesday 19th of January 2010 09:55:17 PM
The only dog walkers I have a real problem with is the ones that let their dogs off the lead knowing full well that they will charge around after the wildfowl...
I see the same old people do it all the time at Reddish Vale... I saw a Bull Mastiff run the full length of the frozen lake the other week and scatter Geese and Ducks in all directions, while it's gormless owner and his mate laughed and joked about it.
I'm ashamed to say at the time, that a little part of me wanted the ice to give way.
i think you have hit the nail on the head there john, when you talk about income to run a site like penny, and dog walkers like us or loath us there are a lot about.
education is the key, there are some who would listen to comments made about the damage that can be done by free running dogs that are out of control and with those people it's worth trying to educate them, to some dog walkers it may seem a bit daft us looking at some LBJ sat in a bush (each to their own) and then there are the others who will like as not throw you in the flash, and no amopunt of educating will ever stop them doing what they are doing, i know i have to deal with people like this all the time.
maybe the wardens should take a more active role and talk to dog walkers on site a bit more, some people are just oblivious to the pursuits of others as they are more concerned with what they want to do than trying to understand what other people are trying to do.
Totally agree John. The only thing that I would say is perhaps some signs would be in order in appropriate places. I can see allowing your dog to charge around in sensitive areas could do harm. Most dog walkers those are sensible people and a bit of education is all thats needed.
Thorpe an excellent post and one I agree with 100%. Its rational and fair minded and not in any way bonkers. Wigan MBC manages both Pennington and Wigan Flashes funded by council tax. Quite why these people think this gives them the right to walk their dogs in the country parks is unfathomable. Only the other day I was almost bowled off my feet by a troublesome Labrador while scanning the teal at Horrocks Flash. The wayward beast was running in all directions and even wagging its tail a practice I find both pointless and irritating.
Its all very disconcerting, a very bad show all round.
Its easy to rant on here which is frequented by small number of local birders.
We need a proper public campaign Dogs out of our country parks.
Mr Thorpe you sound like just the man to lead it.
Unfortunately,whatever birdwatchers did or said would not stop dogwalkers at pennington flash,ive been going to penny for over 30 yearsand dogwalkers have always been there.There seems to be more these days as everyone is attracted to the north bank of penny,due to the big car park which has been extended at least 3 times,and the revenue that brings in ,is what supports the nature reserve at penny. we should just be happy with what we have,anyone can tell me another free site with 8 hides provided for birdwatchers?i daupt there are any,and if anyone wants to get away from the hoards on the north bank ,you can always do the full tour and find your own birds. Get rid of the dogwalkers which outnumber birders by at least 10 to 1 and the revenue goas down,and we lose penny to something else like jet ski's,a bigger golf coarse,etc,so even though i can't stand the mithering filthy beaststhey are the bread and butter of the council that runs the reserve at penny,if there were only birders the place would be locked up ,because we are the tightest bunch going.how many park near the entrance or plank lane to save the £1 it costs to park
Thorpe an excellent post and one I agree with 100%. Its rational and fair minded and not in any way bonkers. Wigan MBC manages both Pennington and Wigan Flashes funded by council tax. Quite why these people think this gives them the right to walk their dogs in the country parks is unfathomable. Only the other day I was almost bowled off my feet by a troublesome Labrador while scanning the teal at Horrocks Flash. The wayward beast was running in all directions and even wagging its tail a practice I find both pointless and irritating.
Its all very disconcerting, a very bad show all round.
Its easy to rant on here which is frequented by small number of local birders.
We need a proper public campaign Dogs out of our country parks.
At least dogs don't kill over 50 million birds each year,like cats do.They also don't kill millions of small rodents,depriving Owls and Kestrels of vital food.
Think yourself lucky the scroats around the Wigan Flashes only have dogs,25 years ago almost everyone of them had an air rifle,it was more like Beirut along the cut(canal) on a Sunday afternoon.
i'm new to this forum lark and i've just been browsing when i came accross your posting.
being a dog walker as well as a birder i'm glad you said Some, Not All Dog Walkers!
you are right to be annoyed but it's not the dog it's the owner/handler thats to blame as it is with all the dog sh1t that inconsiderate dog walker leave behind.
sometimes though going to a site that does have lots of dog walkers can be an advantage as the 'local' birds get used to the interaction with dogs/people and so are not as easily disturbed and hang around a lot longer.
oh bye the way Dogging thing is something completely different (i think you need to get out more!) only joking.
Maybe it's time to find a quieter patch Rob?! Would put me off going there regularly even if there are occasionally some good birds there.
its everywere ,my old patch houghton green at warrington,is ruined now due to contant dogwalkers,and idiots.why do ever dog owner now feel it necsisary to have 3 dogs,do they know theres a recesion on?they spend more on the dogs than the kids wit look of the ones i see at penny.and the favorite now is to send one dog round the front of the hide then get the second dog to stand on a seat in the hide and bark through the window,then they shout at the kids,to keep quiet,as them men are watching the birdies
Following on from my recent rant on the Wigan Flashes thread. I've got a few things I want to get off my chest without clogging up the sightings forum. Firstly, why do some (note some, not all!) dog walkers (or doggers as I like to call them) look at you like you are from another planet if you are carrying optical equipment (aka bins and/or scope) around? This especially annoys me when it occurs at the Wigan Flashes and Pennington Flash. Lets start with the Wigan Flashes: this area is a Local Nature Reserve, therefore it should be an area of land managed to benefit nature. So WHY LET DOGS IN??? This morning I was stood on the towpath at Scotman's Flash when some local skin-head walks past with his thick-head (but probably cleverer than it's owner) dog. First of all he gives me the usual evil "what the f@&k are you doing" glare, then his dog starts galloping up and down the towpath barking at and chasing Black-headed Gulls. I've seen other dogs do the same thing, especially with ducks and geese. A few weeks ago I was at Horrock's Flash when some loud mouth scrotes with some even louder mouthed dogs came along. They were throwing sticks into the flash and yelling at their runtish hounds to go get them. They seemed completely oblivious to the fact that they had flushed about 500 Lapwing and dozens of Snipe and duck! I've been to the flashes pre-dawn on several occasions to see if any migrants have put down overnight, only to find countless dogwalkers (most with countless dogs) already on their way home, many wearing those stupid wildlife scaring hi-vis jackets, your only walking a dog for christ sake, what the f*** are you wearing that for!!!??? Surely the only way to make the flashes "nature friendly" is to ban dogs! Next on to pennington flash: ITS GOT HIDES! Why look at me like an escaped lunatic for carrying binoculars around a reserve that has hides? Why are you taking your dog there? There aren't any kennels, just HIDES!!! :angry:
) to give those crazy high viz jacket wearing fools at the Wigan Flashes some of his jibber jabber.
. Sure some dogs jump up at you and others can be intimidating, especially to children. As has been said a couple of times already in this thread though, it is the owners at fault, not the dogs and education (or a good slap 
)
they are the bread and butter of the council that runs the reserve at penny,if there were only birders the place would be locked up ,because we are the tightest bunch going.how many park near the entrance or plank lane to save the £1 it costs to park