There are no Ruddy Duck in Greater Manchester... Fact!

A government cull would be better...

Both this website and the GMBRG (which of course includes the annual county bird report) continue to withhold information on this species

Manchester Birding also backs Rob's new campaign.

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Friday 13th of April 2012 03:55:46 PM

Ian Woosey wrote:

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18/9/08

The shooters were out this morning on Pearson`s Flash. I walked onto the tow-path at 06:45 when it was barely light and they were already there. They were still at it when I left at 09:00ish....

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i hope the shooters are very proud of themselveswonder what other birds got shot at the same timedaupt most of the shooters could tell the difference between a ruddy and a juv tufted?

sad i know,but latest news from pearsons in the wigan reporter 21/02/08 24 ruddy,s shot on wednesday morning

geoff,if you see any rd,s don,t see em

Sometimes we have to trust that the people employed to do a job will do it correctly. I think there is an inherent distrust in alot of birders regarding people who shoot, because their goals are almost polar opposite to a birders. But that shouldnt mean we tar them all with the same brush i.e they'ra all out to kill anything that flies. I've been out with a hooded top on today but it doesnt make me a thug (some might argue differently) but you see where I'm coming from?

As for the disturbance, I can see a point here, but would have thought that the period between October and mid November (aka bommie night) would be just as bad - almost incessant fireworks for weeks on end, admittedley outside the breeding season though.

Incidentally, the amount of £1500 per head has been mentioned, but I saw one of these jobs advertised a while back and it was something like £15,000 per annum pro-rata for the hours actually worked.

I think the reason I accept this course of action (but do accept it may not be perfect) is that I work everyday with species that are either threatened by non-natives, or are a new non-native species that is slowly becoming a real threat (and a problem for us humans to boot). In this instance one of our mistakes could cause a species in a nother country real problems and we need to stop that happening early.

I may be a little off the mark here but I've a feeling that given the choice in the intensive negotiations the representatives of the spanish troops may just have gone for the option of shooting ruddy ducks in spanish nature reserves rather than being sent to Iraq. Just a guess!
Steve

Fascinating debate - the forum needs more of this!

I too have mixed feelings about the cull and whether or not it's a necessary evil. What's happening in our area at the moment doesn't make any sense but that's because it's all down to politics and a lack of "joined-up thinking". I have no proof but, reading between the lines, I'm sure a deal was done several years back whereby Britain agreed to cull the Ruddies and, in return, Spain would do something to enforce EU hunting laws and sort out some serious environmental/pollution problems in sensitive areas over there.

I'm pleased to see the issues of other introduced "pests" being raised and why DEFRA, etc are doing nothing.

My pet annoyance right now is the seemingly endless (re)introduction schemes. Bob Scott wrote a good letter about it to one of the popular monthlies recently - I think he was spot on. Taking Ospreys from Scotland to Rutland Water was outrageous. Money was spent simply to improve the awful reputation of a privatised water company and increase tourism to that area, with no advantage to the birds, which were increasing their range naturally. Cranes, Bustards, Corncrakes, White-tailed Eagles - where will it all end?

Steve
(wearing my own hat - definitely not my BTO one!)

All points taken on board. The thing i don't understand is why so much money and effort is being put into this cull and not dealing with other problem species. Not just birds. Squirrels and many plant species are a huge problem. It seems that Defra are throwing everything into this simply to be seen to be doing something and waste money. I don't think the Ruddy will ever be erradicated completely. I think we all no some sights where they are where they won't be culled because they won't be found. Would the RSPB allow a cull at say Leighton Moss? and risk disturbing breeding Bittern. Would WWT allow one at Martin Mere and risk disturbing breeding Marsh Harriers or Avocets? The whole thing seems pointless because it wont work. I'd put money on Ruddy Ducks being seen at Wigan Flashes by the end of the summer.
Just seems like a lot of unnecessary killing and disturbance to me.

Jimmy, don't think anyone's gonna come to blows over this

Interesting debate, keep it going.

Cheers Dean.

thats the point i was trying to get at geoff theres nothing anybody can do about the ruddy duck cull now no matter what mine or anyone else's opinion the shooters could and probably do kill other birds whether accidently or intentionaly as no one is there to verify what they shoot i just think that the planning and money spent on the site that someone from one of the groups lwt,wwt,rspb or bto should know what has gone on during the shoots instead of getting it out of the local papers saying 24 ruddys shot onthe say so of the people who are doing the cull
i know i started this discussion off and so that nobody falls out over it it might be better if it closes cheers jimmy .

lets hope the green winged teal doasn't pair up with the common teal,or they'l be shootin them as well

The Spanish shoot every Ruddy they see - yes, they can do it - and they don't miss any, Simon. I have it on good authority from Tom Gullick, the world's top lister, who lives there. They have several million euros to finance the shooting and habitat enhancements.

With being involved with the Ruddy Duck cull (Not actually the culling of the birds, so dont shoot me here!) Ive carried out a few counts of Ruddy's in the Cheshire and Manchester areas as part of my work with WWT. Its been interesting following this discussion on here.

Like David Winnard, I am in two minds with regards to this cull! I can understand why it is being carried out, but I do also find the idea of the Spanish shooting the ducks a much better approach to the whole situation.

I am not sure what ringing information the UK have on Ruddy Duck movements nowadays as I understand not that many get ringed! So how can it be proven that our Northwest Ruddies are going over there? I think more information on their movements is needed to help understand how the species is likely to spread within Europe and whether the control measures are likely to be effective.

K

I am still yet to make my mind up on this, for many reasons.......Ian lend me your bullet proof vest a second, here goes,

1) Is it acceptable for us to have allowed this species into the wild in the first place to an area it is not at all native - whether or not it is 'doing any harm'. Do we not have a moral obligation to keep our countryside native? (theres a whole other debate there on wolves bear etc!). So the erradication of Ruddy Duck, Grey Squirrel, Canada Goose etc is a must. We have for far too long had the 'Modernist' attitude of pick and choose what we want to conserve, Save Pandas, Kill Great White Sharks etc. Even though the duck does no harm to our native wildlife (as far as we know) - it shouldnt be here!
2) Surely the shooting of game birds such as grouse, woodcock etc that goes on is far more to complain about than the shoot of Ruddy Ducks? A friend who is a beater during the shooting season quotes what seem to me as high numbers of Woodcock that are shot - a species i would gladly see much more than Ruddy Duck! Not only this but because of this many birds of prey suffer at the hands of game keepers (and Pigeon fanciers) - sureley this is more important?
3) If we allowed Ruddy Ducks to stay would we also allow any other species that escape to remain in our countryside? Flocks of white-cheeked Pintail and Bald eagles are the next thing as long as they dont interfere to much?
4) If we were to prick Ruddy Duck eggs would that be so bad?
5) why should we let the spanish clean up OUR mess? 4 birds is still 4 birds.
6) were not wiping out a species, only a population, ruddies are still found where they are meant to be!

Dont get me wrong I have not made my mind up yet on what i think, this are just some thoughts - I have more of a problem with other birds that the RSPB seem to think its ok to allow to spread and introduce - Conservation is all about money and funding, thats it! whats the right and wrong thing to do doesnt seem to matter.

Yes I hate to see rather innocent creatures shot, but I also do not like the way we seem to treat the natural enviroment as OUR play thing, keep this, get rid of that etc. Surely having it as natural and as native as possible is the only answer.

anyway, ill see you all at dawn!

Dont Hate Me!
Dave

-- Edited by David Winnard at 00:20, 2008-02-19

-- Edited by David Winnard at 00:26, 2008-02-19

To eradicate the Ruddy Duck in SPAIN is justified, on the grounds that hybridisation is threatening to wipe out a globally threatened species. To kill thousands in the UK, on the premise that a few MIGHT migrate to Spain is totally unjustified. Surely, is it not common sense to control the problem where it is actually occurring ?

I resigned from the Lancs Wildlife Trust and WWT over it - hit them where it hurts! The RSPB lost 400+ members over it, too, I heard, and they might yet lose another! Only 4 Ruddies got to Spain in 2006 (their figures) - why fly all that way when you can winter in warm Warrington or Wigan, now that global warming has happened. No-one, even these so-called experts, is suggesting they are any problem here. Over in Spain, there are now 3000 White-headed Ducks (some suggest 5000) due to habitat restoration, instead of the 20-odd there were when this Ruddy Duck fiasco started. So it's unlikely White-headed Ducks will be reduced to breeding with their "cousins" when there's plenty of choice of their own kind.
Let's face it, Ruddies are an easy target. They sit on the water all day and don't fly off when the shooters approach (which is why the W-H Ducks were shot out) A lot different to Grey Squirrels, Mink, Terrapins and other nasties that really do the damage.
If you live in Wigan, when the local elections come round, remember that it is was this council that voted to allow the shooters on the land (they could have refused, as 50% of landowners have), and vote accordingly - the main opposition party vehemently opposed the cull.
Barbara Young of the Environment Agency has admitted that long term, the cull will not succeed. When the money runs out in 2010, hopefully there will be an end to this madness.

Now, firstly, this is more than a little devils advocate here and not necessarily my own opinion so don't go shooting me down straight away but I'm intruiged to know both sides of any argument. So, hoping that we've all read the reply from the RSPB below, outlining the reasons for their stance on the culling, does anyone have anything constructive to say in reply to it? Culling always seems a cruel and unessasary form of control and this current Ruddy Duck cull is no different but in light of the factual information that can be gleaned for and against, much of it available on the web, I'm interested to hear opinions from everyone. Does the culling of what is a non native, introduced duck that is allegedly treatening the population of a globaly threatened one, not seem justified or is there a hidden agenda to it that can be factually proven? Are we being driven by the heart (and wallets) for these attractive little yankees, blue beaks and bubbling? Is the occasional shooting any more disturbance than that created by dog walkers, kids in dingies etc?

As a side note, it strikes me as slightly ironic that not many are complaining about the current and previous culling of Canada Geese in the UK and more specifically in Greater Manchester?

Please remember, before you call the contract for my assassination , the above comments are not necessarily my own opinion but are there to perhaps invoke serious and constructive discussion. Now, where's bullet proof vest...

just to say it does not make sense to me anyway to carry on shooting at pearsons when all that money has been spent to get bitterns to breed at the site with at least 1 maybe 2 who knows that are wintering on pearsons does anyone think blasting away at the site will keep the birds there i dont think so
with a bittern booming at leighton moss for the last week or so you would think that peace and quiet would be the best policy to try to keep the birds there and if there is any more shooting to take place this spring the groups that have put the money into attracting bitterns here must be thinking what the hell is going on the shooters will not be bothered if theres no bitterns there just getting well paid for something they would probably do as a sport anyway if anybody can give me a good answer feel free cos i cannot see sense in it thats for sure

Jimmy, it definitely took place last Wednesday ; I heard the shots from Hawkley car park. It sounded like the first day of the Somme offensive !

mike-it could be worse than thaught there were 21 ruddys during the rain on saturdaywhen will this madness stopapart from the ruddys a once great wintering area for wigeon is constantly being disturbed,i used to have up to 200 wigeon all winter,now its a third of that.how can the rspb condone disturbing a major feeding area of wigeon is behond me.it just makes me so sad

A while back I e-mailed the RSPB challenging their standard statement for the issue - I have finally received a response - below.

Thank you for your continued interest in the ruddy duck issue. Ian Peters has forwarded your email to me, as I lead our work on non-native species and am better placed to answer your particular concerns. Please accept my apologies for the long delay in responding.

The Spanish population of white-headed ducks, as measured by post-breeding counts, has been relatively stable over the last 5 years at around 2,0002,500 birds. This does not remove the threat posed by hybridisation with ruddy ducks. Though numbers of ruddy ducks arriving in Spain have never been large, they could easily become so should no action be taken to curb the increase in numbers in the UK , which holds the bulk of the European breeding population. Spain has seen a small influx of ruddy ducks in recent weeks, following bad weather in the north-east Atlantic and across the UK . While the Spanish government is able to control the small numbers of ruddy ducks emanating from a reducing UK population, their task would be much harder should the number of birds reaching Spain grow due to a lack of action in the UK .

There is no guarantee that milder winters in the UK will cause ruddy ducks to become permanently resident, especially in the context of an increasing population subject to no control action. Should winter food resources become limiting, movements onto the continent might be expected, as happens with many wildfowl species during periods of prolonged cold weather. One major incursion could provide ruddy ducks with a foothold in Spain which the Spanish authorities have, until now, denied them.

The reason that conservationists are so concerned is that the mating strategies of the two species are very different: unlike white-headed ducks, which form stable pair bonds, male ruddy ducks attempt persistently to mate with females of both their own and other species. This means that, should ruddy ducks be allowed to establish in Spain , male ruddy ducks are likely to out-compete male white-headed ducks, experiencing much higher mating success and eventually genetically swamping the white-headed duck population. The likely result would be a population of hybrid birds with individual birds showing, over time, fewer and fewer characteristics of white-headed ducks. The population would eventually comprise solely ruddy ducks. In other words, the Spanish white-headed duck would become extinct.

Furthermore, at present only the Spanish population of white-headed ducks is stable the global population stands at fewer than 15,000 individuals and is declining. Hybridisation remains, by common consensus, the most important long-term threat to their survival. Ruddy ducks have spread eastwards towards Turkey and central Asia in recent years, potentially threatening the largest remaining population of white-headed ducks. Local control in Turkey would probably be impossible owing to the large areas of wetland, so it is essential that prompt action be taken to prevent ruddy ducks from becoming established in Europe. This means concluding eradication programmes in the UK, France and Netherlands the latter two being the only other European countries with breeding populations that could become self-sustaining should no action be taken.

This situation is one of many examples amongst birds, mammals, amphibians and fish, where hybridisation with an introduced species is threatening the survival of a native species. The introduction of mallards to New Zealand over 100 years ago resulted in a similar problem involving the native New Zealand grey duck. The proportion of non-hybrid grey ducks has now fallen below the level that is considered essential for the continued existence of this species, whilst the mallard population continues to increase. Globally, non-native species are considered the most important threat to biological diversity after habitat loss. A recent analysis by BirdLife International showed that non-native species were implicated in nearly half of all bird extinctions since 1500.

I hope that my comments offer further clarity and reassurance that our stance is based on rigorous scrutiny of the available evidence, and what I believe is a moral obligation to help safeguard the white-headed duck. I agree with you that the financial cost of eradication is significant, but, when viewed as a means of protecting the investment of conservationists in Spain over many years, it is proportionate. I can assure you that the RSPB would not support the eradication programme if we did not think it stood a good chance of success. The progress made so far in reducing the ruddy duck population suggests eradication from the UK is feasible.

To conclude, I would like to express my gratitude at your decision to remain a member of the RSPB. While we may disagree over this topic, I suspect we agree on a lot more. The challenges that face our birds and the habitats in which they live are as great as they have ever been probably greater we really do need your continued support.

Thank you again for getting in touch.

Yours sincerely

David Hoccom
Head of Species Policy
Royal Society for the Protection of Birds

The second round of the Ruddy Duck cull took place on Thursday 15th November. However, I hear they were thwarted by the hunt saboteurs, with only 7 shots being fired. The hunt sabs had a camcorder and were threatened with arrest by these shooters if they filmed them - a baseless threat of course, as there were no police present, as I understand.

I got the same standard response from Ian Peters so I challenged it.

No response as yet - it has all gone quiet.

Mike

riggers wrote:

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Just had a reply from the RSPB regarding the Ruddy Duck cull.A bog standard response i presume but here it is

Thank you for your enquiry about white-headed ducks and ruddy ducks, which Graham Wynne has asked me to reply to. I can understand why you are concerned - this is an important and complex issue.

Our decision to support the Government's plans to eradicate North American ruddy ducks from the UK, as part of a package of measures to help safeguard the white-headed duck, is one of the most difficult the Society has ever had to make. It has been arrived at following years of careful consideration of the detailed scientific research carried out into this issue. We are faced with a stark choice - either we act to stop ruddy ducks spreading from the UK, or we stand by and watch the ruddy duck push the globally threatened white-headed duck ever closer to extinction.

The outlook for white-headed ducks remains uncertain, with the Spanish population the only one known to be increasing in numbers as a result of sustained conservation action. BirdLife International, in its most recent assessment, classified the white-headed duck as Endangered, making it one of the most threatened species breeding on the European mainland. Hybridisation with ruddy ducks remains the most serious threat to its survival, and given the UK is the main source of ruddy ducks reaching the continent, it is imperative that action is taken.

As a bird conservation organisation, we believe that the RSPB has a duty to help safeguard the white-headed duck, but we are also saddened by the consequences for the UK's ruddy duck population. If there was a viable alternative to shooting these birds we would support it - we believe, however, that the Government's research programme has arrived at the only practical way of tackling this conservation problem. Taking this action can help secure the future of the world's white-headed ducks, while the ruddy duck will continue to thrive in its native North America, where there is a population of more than 600,000 birds.

We believe the Government is acting rightly and responsibly, but we do understand why this action will cause distress to some - we too would rather not be faced with this situation. The ruddy duck provides a cautionary tale of what can happen when man puts a species into the wrong place, which then has a devastating impact on other wildlife - we must learn from the mistakes of the past.

Thank you for your interest in this issue.

Regards

Ian Peters - Wildlife Advisor

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Frankly, What a load of B********.

This is a Duck we're talking about. Not a predatory species that is going to wipe out another one.
The White Headed Duck will survive or not, regardless of what we do to to the british population.

I can't believe the RSPB is supporting this.

Man has got it wrong in so many ways, in this case i think this guy is in the wrong job.

-- Edited by Dean Mac at 23:34, 2007-11-04