Regarding permitts for Audenshaw Resevoir, i have just spoken to Ian at United Utilities and he has advised me they are limiting the numbers of Permits to Audenshaw at around a dozen. UU are keen that the only people who have keys and access are those who can dedicate time to ornithalogical research on the site and not just casual watchers who may only visit when a mega appears, they have issued some keys already to current permit holders and are awaiting people who already have permits for this year to contact them, they also have a waiting list of people for both Audy and HPR. Speaking to Ian he is keen for those people who cant dedicate time to either of the permit sites to advise him, this then enables UU to re-allocate them to poeple who can use them to their fullest.
So can i ask on UU`s behalf if anyone has a pass and they only visit inferquently to advise him so people who can dedicate more time to this site can use them
Yesterday at the private site that Simon refers to (I expect we all know where it is) I was on there legally and 4 youths were using the path round the reservoir as a short cut. They had come on by the outlet tower, and left by a pair of gates in the fencing which abut onto a fairly busy road. There were 1 or 2 girls who had no difficulty getting over the gates. Residents on the road watched them climb over but (not wanting broken windows or insults) didn't challenge them. I too beat a hasty retreat - my optics might have been too much temptation in an isolated place.
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Judith Smith
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Lightshaw hall Flash is sacrosanct - NO paths please!
Dont really see the logic by UU if thats the case. As Pete said more people with permits, more people to keep an eye on the site and report wrong doings. If they want a secure site then shouldnt they make it one! restricting permits wont stop kids climbing over, people going swimming or the bloke with the remote controled boat getting on there!
I have also been given this as a reason for the extra fencing that has appeared at HPR,however I cannot see why this should be used as an excuse by U.U. to restrict permits.In fact it should work in reverse,the more people that watch an area,the more chance of us seeing and reporting any unusual occurences.
I work for UU and there's now pressure on us from the Government to restrict access to water supplies etc. as part of the Critical National Infrastructure because of the increased terrorist threats.
A lot of reservoirs and water treatment works are now being covered by CCTV and intruder alarms so be warned !
QUOTE: I am extremely concerned about the effect of dog walkers on my local patch, Houghton Green Flash. For some unknown reason the number of dog walkers here has increased in the last six months - I estimate that there are 50-60 people walking dogs stvarious times here at the moment. The numbers of Coot, Pochard and Little Grebe are massively down on last year. Although there could be other factors, I personally think the dogs play a part. Feeding around the edges of the flash is constantly interrupted, espcially by gun dogs going into the water and there are often now several people walking dogs around different parts at the same time, consequently the birds get no rest. I have seen birds, particularly Little Grebes, panicking when dogs enter the water near them.
THE PROBLEM WITH HOUGHTON GREEN IS DUE TO THE CURRENT OWNER NOT RESTRICTING ANYONE FROM WALKING AROUND THE POOL.ALSO THERES IS A PUBLIC FOOTPATH ON THE EAST AND NORTH BANKS.IVE NOTICED JUST LIKE YOU IT HAS NOW BECOME A CONSTANT CIRCULAR TOUR FOR DOGWALKERS,EVEN IN THE BELTING RAIN SATURDAY AFTERNOON 5 GROUPS OF DOGWALKERS PASSED ME IN 15 MINUITES,ALSO FOR SOME REASON EVERY DOG WALKER HAS 3 DOGS,AND ALSO PALK ACROSS THE FARMERS GATE.AS YOU KNOW HOUGHTON GREEN HAS BEEN MY LOCAL PATCH FOR 12 YEARS ,BUT MORE AND MORE I FIND IM GOING TO PENNINGTON,AT LEAST THERE ARE AREAS AT PENNY NOT DISTURBED BY DOGS.THE OWNER PUBLICISED H.G.P WHEN HE PUT SIGNS UP ON THE ROADSIDE TELLING PEOPLE NOT TO FISH?SWIM?SAIL?BEFORE THAT NO-ONE SEEMED TO KNOW IT WAS THERE.IN FACT FOR 7 YEARS I WAS THE ONLY PERSON ALMOST EVER ON THERE.I DIDN'T WALK ROUND ,I SAT IN ONE CORNER AND SCOPED IT.ALSO THE FARMERS CATTLE THAT USED TO GRAZE THE POOL KEPT PEOPLE OFF.THE NEW OWNER STOPPED THE FARMER FROM GRASING HIS CATTLE.THE POOL USED TO BE A FABULOUS PLACE NOW LIKE YOU SAY EVERYTHING CONSTANTLY DISTURBED.THERE IS NO SOLUTION WITH THE POOL ITS PRIVATELY OWNED .THE OWNER STRANGELY ONLY BAUGHT THE POOL WHEN IT WAS GOING TO BE BAUGHT BY A JET SKIING CLUB.HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE DISTURBED?SINCE THEN HE HAS ALLOWED SAILING BOATS ON ACCAISIONALLY,SCUBA DIVERS,HAS PUT TROUT IN AND FISHES IT.LET DEFRA SHOOT EVERY RUDDY DUCK AND ANYTHING ELSE THEY COULD A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.ANYWAY AFTER THAT RANT TO GET TO THE POINT.PROBLEM WITH BIRDWATCHER IN GENERAL IS WE CARE FOR ANY WATER WE WATCH I.E AUDENSHAW,HGP,HEATON PARK,AND WE CARE FOR THE WILDLIFE IN THESE AREAS.UNFORTUNATELY THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PUBLIC WALK ROUND THESE PLACES EVERY DAY,DON'T EVEN NOTICE THE WILDLIFE,WALK THIER DOGS,AND DON,T CARE WHO OWNS OR RESTRICKS ACCESS.THEY ARE LIKE SHEEP,THINK EVERONE LOVES THIER DOGS ,DIVING UP AT THEM ETC.WE CAN ONLY STICK TO OUR OWN RULES .DON'T TRESPASS ,DON'T DISTURB WILDLIFE.AND HOPE ONE DAY OTHERS FOLLOW OUR LEAD
Personnally i would like for sightings from private sites to be released, BUT respecting that its still a private site! (i.e how the Black terns were posted last night). My local patch consists of 2 private sites and it means that im not supposed to release any sightings, which drives me nuts!! I've been flogging HPR this year and when something half decent turns up i want to share it.
It also means other birders know whats about in the area, ok they cant get on to the private site to see it but at least you know to go check your own patch. I think if you were gonna tresspass at these places you would have done it anyway, i know i would have at HPR with the sightings from the previous years report and it being so near to my flat!
Understand that there is a problem with UU issuing permits, and stops people going to see stuff, but have UU ever been contacted about organised twitches say if a mega turns up? has one ever been done? Im askin this cause back home in lovley Bradford a very long time ago a red-necked phal turned up on a private site and Yorkshire water allowed an organised twitch on 3 nights between certain hours for the public. Would UU allow something like that if they were restricitng permits but for local birders?
right better stop now before i start ranting more!
I applied for a permit at Audenshaw and got no response whatsoever. It is clear that everyone and their Albert visits when it suits, whether it is swimming, dog walking or birding. I can't understand why UU don't issue more permits or take more steps to prevent tresspass.
I am extremely concerned about the effect of dog walkers on my local patch, Houghton Green Flash. For some unknown reason the number of dog walkers here has increased in the last six months - I estimate that there are 50-60 people walking dogs stvarious times here at the moment. The numbers of Coot, Pochard and Little Grebe are massively down on last year. Although there could be other factors, I personally think the dogs play a part. Feeding around the edges of the flash is constantly interrupted, espcially by gun dogs going into the water and there are often now several people walking dogs around different parts at the same time, consequently the birds get no rest. I have seen birds, particularly Little Grebes, panicking when dogs enter the water near them.
I don't want to knock dog walkers - I have a dog of my own and he goes birding with me regularly. In my case I have self-imposed rules I follow to prevent my dog disturbing wildlife.
My own feeling is that HGF is now under threat. I spoke to an RSPB warden at Cemlyn on Anglesey this summer - dog walkers have also had an adverse impact there. At Cemlyn dog faeces have actually changed the pH of the soil and is affecting plant and animal life - no breeding Skylarks or Mipits in the affected areas this year. Likewise at HGF no Lapwings bred in the field to the south this year.
I do think areas like Audenshaw should be protected before it becomes custom and practice for the public to enter here and animals and birds start to get disturbed regularly.
Back to the main point - even if these places are access restricted I would still like to see reports - always useful as an indicator for other sites too.
I would seriously like to know why it is that UU insist on a `permit only` policy at HPR & Audy ? Think of all the other reservoirs they own ( at least 8 to the north & west of Bolton alone ) and why are there no restrictions at these ? What`s the difference ? ? ? Granted, the access road to HPR now runs through someone`s home but it wasn`t always so, and as Pete says, there are another two gates at least where access could be permitted. Another thing is the number of permits issued - why the limit ? - especially at a site the size of Audenshaw ! If we`re not careful this whole issue will cause a lot of resentment and create a schism between all the birders in this county - and at the end of the day all we want to do is watch birds, no matter at which site............where`s the harm in that ?
As I have been birding Heaton Park for the last 20 years(the first 12 of which I was the only permit holder) I can understand why U.U. are restricting the number of permits. The only legitimate access is through the drive of what was formerly the Water Keepers house,but now has been sold and is in private ownership.Because of this presumably they want to keep numbers restricted to avoid conflict with the house owner who's drive you have to use to gain access.There aren't any vantage points from which you can see the water without trepassing onto private land.This is of course doesn't stop the local scroats from trepassing whenever the summer sun is out(about once a month this year fortunately)U.U.appear to do nothing to stop this,,they used to have security guards with dogs to keep people off in the summer(under North West Water) but presumably the cost of this will dent the profits of what now is a private company.I would like to see more permits being given out,the more it is watched,the more birds will be turned up.But this is unlikely to happen unless an alternative acces point can be organised,which seems very unlikely under the present management.I have suggested an alternative access to U.U. which wouldn't conflict with anyone else but they don't seem to be interested.Hopefully if a mega did turn up we might be able to arrange something with U.U.but otherwise we will have to abide by our permit condition which states that NO NEWS is to be given out.Hopeully people who have got a permit but don't use them will give them up to allow others who are keen to visit regulary the chance to get a permit.
Sites aren't wardened but if birders were to completely disregard the restrictions imposed, UU would certainly cease to give permits to any birders which would be extremely counter productive. Sure we could all go 'on mass', what are they going to do, but this only stirs trouble for the regulars. The tresspassing general public are certainly annoying when birders have to go to the trouble of getting permits but we don't want to make things potentially worse and atleast we have the higher moral ground the public are UU's problem not ours.
Are these permits access or bird watching permits? Seems ok to sunbathe or walk the dog but if you've got a pair of bins around your neck you're not allowed in. How are these sights wardened? Has anyone been thrown off or had any encounters with them.
Andrew Newall wrote: permits are going to be restricted in numbers on Audenshaw as they are Heaton Park so if anyone has permits they dont use on a regular basis it would be great if they could give them up for the people on the reserve lists who can dedicate more time to the sites.
Never a truer (is that a real word?) sentence spoken Andrew!!! This goes for Heaton Park Reservoir too, if you don't visit the sites but keep hold of yours 'just in case', please give it up for someone who will use it, there are plenty of them out there.
Whilst I agree with what's been said so far already, are we underestimating our temptation to visit these sites when the next Sabine's Gull or similar turns ? As assistant county recorder for rarities I could almost be expected to go and see any contentious or difficult species but visiting arrangements are no different for me than anyone else without a permit. Can visiting arrangements be made to these sites? I think not as the permits form part of the huge health and safety regulations these sites fall under but that said both Heaton Park and Audenshaw can look like Blackpool beach (minus the Donkeys) in high summer (when its not raining of course) and UU do absolutely nothing to prevent it, sometimes we as birders are an easy target...
I think all the info should be released, its important to know whats out there and where its being seen, and as Ian says you can then get on yer bike and have a look at likley stop off points for these birds. Ive not been able to get out and about because of work commitments but being able to log on and read about the sightings ( public or private )and especially Audenshaw is invaluable to me, i mean i was logging on to the forum in March this year while i was working in the Far East. If people didint report on those sights with restricted access, then we are not really reporting sightings in GM, it then becomes a more selective release of information and if that rarity drops in somewhere and stays only 5 minutes who is going to know to look anywhere else for it.
I dont know how it is for everyone else, but i get great pleasure in knowing whats around and about even if i dont see them myself as it makes me determined to find something new.
As for permits for regular visitors i think this is key, with me being new to birding and finding a site that is 10 mins from my house was visiting Audenshaw at least once a week, this as my field skills improved wa sincreased to twice and then the plan was to extend that to 3 to 4 times a week as its local and no problems for me to spare the time before i go to work. Then the gates went up and with me being one of the silly people who didnt have a pass i couldnt get on. Speaking to Ian Leach at UU permits are going to be restricted in numbers on Audenshaw as they are Heaton Park so if anyone has permits they dont use on a regular basis it would be great if they could give them up for the people on the reserve lists who can dedicate more time to the sites. ( hopefuly Ian should have some good news for me when i ring him on Monday ).
Ian, im just on my way out to look for the Ring Necked Parakeets so not given this much thought, but I personally would like to hear about sightings from these two places especially for regular birds like Black terns etc and that sort of thing, having seen loads of them at Elton im not likely to be going to Heaton Park to see them but definately interested to know whats happening locally as like you said it encourages people to get out to watch there own patches if a particular movement of birds is occuring. Obviously anything rare is a different story and more serious consideration is needed or witheld if necessary. But wont people find out about sightings anyway in the bird report.
I had a permit to HPR a couple of years ago but unfortunately lost my key when i moved house and I have been unable to obtain a permit since. Does anyone know why is there a waiting list for permits this i cant understand? surely there can not be that may people wanting them? Do people get a permit just to walk there dogs at these places?
This could well be a little long winded, so stick with it....
There are sites within our county where information is currently witheld due to certain reasons, some valid and some less so but my question is, would you rather know of a, let's say a rarity, at a site you couldn't have access to or not
Throughout the country there are private, permit only or restricted access sites and many of these (if not most) still release bird information from them, the large reservoirs in London, Blithfield Reservoir in West Mids, Woolston Eyes, Inner Marsh RSPB are just afew that spring immediately to mind. In our county there are now atleast 4 sites with restricted access imposed by the landowners, two are unlikely to ever release bird information but never have due to sensitive breeding species there and this is quite right, another is closed to the general birding public due to health and safety regulations caused by work around the site but this will hopefully be resolved in the coming autumn (ish!), whilst another two (let's face it, they're Heaton Park and Audenshaw Reservoirs) have now had access restrictions imposed and permits appear to be being limited for both these sites, which are two of the most productive sites in the county
So would you rather know what birds are being seen at these two latter sites, even if you couldn't go and see them if you tried? There are of course pro's and con's to the release of any info from these sites, my views are thus:
The release of info can encourage observers to get out and search other areas for similar birds, the recent Black Terns did just that for me and I went straight out to Pennington and Rumworth in an attempt to cash in on the influx (but to no avail!) when I heard of those brief birds at Heaton Park and Audenshaw. If news of birds is released, when they leave either site they can be searched for at others in the county but if we don't know in the first place then we might no make such a concerted effort to look, bird info gives others hope when times are lean (everyone moans about it being quiet currently but Audenshaw seems to be 'plodding along' nicely') and encourages you to get out and have a look. Let's face it, it's good reading on the forum too and certainly makes the county look more impressive than it otherwise might, and at times we need all the help we can get If news is witheld, other observers without a permit may loose interest as they never hear what's there anyway, so don't apply for permits (wether they can get one or not) which could lead landowners like United Utilities to be mistaken into thinking that either sites aren't that important to birders afterall.
On the negative site of course is that if you can't get to see a bird you really want to, you just might be inclined to trespass (as often happens I'm afraid) and this could lead to a total ban of birders if landowners get fed up of their access policies being flaunted, although at both Heaton Park and Audenshaw they seem to care little about the litterally hundreds of members of the public that sunbath and swim on these sites when the weathers good!
Personally I'd rather info was released (as is currently at Audenshaw) with the rider that the site is strictly private and by permit only, then let those with permits police their sites and if necessary name and shame anyone that ruthlessly ignores requests not to visit without a permit. If and when those 'biggies' do occur I'm sure they will try there best to formulate some kind of access for us all and we'll have to be content with that (no I don't nor will I have a permit for Audenshaw, they should, in my eyes, be reserved for their regular users only, birders keeping permits 'just incase' but never actually visiting the site should have them revoked )
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and I have been unable to obtain a permit since. Does anyone know why is there a waiting list for permits this i cant understand? surely there can not be that may people wanting them? Do people get a permit just to walk there dogs at these places?
If news is witheld, other observers without a permit may loose interest as they never hear what's there anyway, so don't apply for permits (wether they can get one or not) which could lead landowners like United Utilities to be mistaken into thinking that either sites aren't that important to birders afterall.