PENNINGTON FLASH. Issues & Concerns

John Watson · Status: Offline

RE: PENNINGTON FLASH. Issues & Concerns

Craig Higson · Status: Offline

JOHN TYMON wrote:

Craig Higson wrote:
Swimmers going out from the car park this evening. Not kids but properly equipped open water types. I spoke to a couple of blokes wearing wetsuits and preparing to go swimming a week or two ago and they just dismissed me out of hand. It needs nipping in the bud before it becomes a real issue. Just some signs would help. These swimmers were heading right out in front of east bay reedbed and into east bay, flushing pretty much everything in that area.

Added to this, swimmers were also out at the sailing club, with one noted swimming very close to the ruck and possibly outside the area the sailing club are supposed to use. So essentially the only undisturbed place this evening was Rammies

Bit late for the swimming to be nipped in the bud,it's been going on now for about 2 years or more ,everyone was informed at the time ,and as usual with penny nothing has happened,if I remember Colin Davies highlighted it many times in the last few years ,I have seen them swim through Gull Roosts ,boat club's to the ruck seems a regular route,penny is more disturbed than it's ever been.I reported it many times as I did with most issues ,even I have more or less given up now.For me now I don't think of it as a nature reserve I just except it for what it has become a place were it's all things to all men, were it's more or less a park were everyone does whatever they want to and birders now just have to accept this, and accept it as a place were you see what you see.

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 12th of May 2021 08:00:35 AM

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 12th of May 2021 11:09:39 AM

Admittedly there's not a lot can be done about swimmers from the sailing club. The Sailing club own a big chunk of the water, so they can do as they like. They should only swim (or sail) within the boundaries of their ownership though. As per my earlier post. The buoys that marked the nature reserve/no sail zone have moved considerably and need replacing. They are a good 50-100m out of line. The swimmers from the car park were a new one for me though and its that that I'm really referring to needing stopping.

colin davies · Status: Offline

Craig Higson wrote:
Swimmers going out from the car park this evening. Not kids but properly equipped open water types. I spoke to a couple of blokes wearing wetsuits and preparing to go swimming a week or two ago and they just dismissed me out of hand. It needs nipping in the bud before it becomes a real issue. Just some signs would help. These swimmers were heading right out in front of east bay reedbed and into east bay, flushing pretty much everything in that area.

Added to this, swimmers were also out at the sailing club, with one noted swimming very close to the ruck and possibly outside the area the sailing club are supposed to use. So essentially the only undisturbed place this evening was Rammies

I'm told by a regular who gets there much earlier than me that two swimmers go out from the car park early morning almost daily throughout the year, even when the Flash was partly iced over in the winter. A couple of days ago there were two men blowing up some kind of inflatable and preparing to go out from the car park and last week there was an angler just off east bay reedbed in an inflatable.

When we came out of the first lockdown last May, the Flash was one of the few places where open water swimming was allowed and this attracted larger numbers than usual. On more than one occasion I counted around 100 swimmers in the water, stretching from the yacht club to the ruck and right over towards east bay. Basically anywhere within the buoys where the yachts can go. These swimmers were / are there six days a week for at least a couple of hours each time, either early morning or evening, and they also have Gemini craft support boats which whizz around the flash checking that everybody is ok, so basically the whole of the flash within the boundary of the buoys is out of bounds for wildfowl. No wonder duck numbers are well down and we never get a diver that stays.

Canoes from the yacht club regularly go right up to the west end reeds. About a month ago three canoes went out from the car park right along the spit close in and were about to go into Ramsdales until another Flash regular shouted to them to stop from the Ruck.

Also about a month ago there was a party going on in Ramsdales reedbed, I could hear laughing and shouting and music, and there was smoke rising from the reedbed. It's not unusual at all to see anglers on the spit, especially early morning and a year or two ago I even came across Leigh fire brigade training in front of Ramsdales hide.

Add to all of this dog walkers with 2, 3, 4 dogs off the lead running everywhere, the spit overgrown and not managed at all and John is quite correct, it's not a nature reserve anymore, it's just a place where despite everything you might get lucky and see a bird on passage. Just compare the sightings from Elton Reservoir or Audenshaw to Pennington Flash, there's no comparison. One dunlin is a good day at the flash these days.

Unfortunately I don't think anything can now be done to save it, it's too far gone and I can only see it getting worse. More and more houses are going up all around and a new cafe and visitor centre is apparently being built and the overwhelming majority of visitors just see it as a playground. Councilors hold up signs for photo shoots advertising the new visitor centre which call the place Pennington Flash Nature Reserve, that's just a sick joke unless they're prepared to invest heavily in the place, including wardens.

This is why I don't go very much, despite living a 10 minute walk away.

-- Edited by colin davies on Wednesday 12th of May 2021 02:01:48 PM

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

Craig Higson wrote:
Swimmers going out from the car park this evening. Not kids but properly equipped open water types. I spoke to a couple of blokes wearing wetsuits and preparing to go swimming a week or two ago and they just dismissed me out of hand. It needs nipping in the bud before it becomes a real issue. Just some signs would help. These swimmers were heading right out in front of east bay reedbed and into east bay, flushing pretty much everything in that area.

Added to this, swimmers were also out at the sailing club, with one noted swimming very close to the ruck and possibly outside the area the sailing club are supposed to use. So essentially the only undisturbed place this evening was Rammies

Bit late for the swimming to be nipped in the bud,it's been going on now for about 2 years or more ,everyone was informed at the time ,and as usual with penny nothing has happened,if I remember Colin Davies highlighted it many times in the last few years ,I have seen them swim through Gull Roosts ,boat club's to the ruck seems a regular route,penny is more disturbed than it's ever been.I reported it many times as I did with most issues ,even I have more or less given up now.For me now I don't think of it as a nature reserve I just except it for what it has become a place were it's all things to all men, were it's more or less a park were everyone does whatever they want to and birders now just have to accept this, and accept it as a place were you see what you see.

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 12th of May 2021 08:00:35 AM

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 12th of May 2021 11:09:39 AM

Craig Higson · Status: Offline

Swimmers going out from the car park this evening. Not kids but properly equipped open water types. I spoke to a couple of blokes wearing wetsuits and preparing to go swimming a week or two ago and they just dismissed me out of hand. It needs nipping in the bud before it becomes a real issue. Just some signs would help. These swimmers were heading right out in front of east bay reedbed and into east bay, flushing pretty much everything in that area.

Added to this, swimmers were also out at the sailing club, with one noted swimming very close to the ruck and possibly outside the area the sailing club are supposed to use. So essentially the only undisturbed place this evening was Rammies furious

Craig Higson · Status: Offline

Not a pressing concern given all that's going on a the moment, but definitely one for the future. I've thought for a while that the line of buoys defining the no-sail zone had been moving. Tonight whilst birding from the ruck it was obvious just how much they have moved. When I was working at the flash, the line of buoys used to run from the point on the ruck, in a straight line to the north bank of the mouth of the river more or less. Tonight the nearest buoy was almost in Rammies and the line looked more like something you'd see on a snakes and ladders board. I appreciate there are no rangers to reset the line, but I'm sure the sailing club could help out - pretty sure they must move their buoys regularly.

Gordon Newman · Status: Offline

I'm sure you have have seen the photos on Los Facebook page David . Presume two separate groups?

-- Edited by Gordon Newman on Wednesday 3rd of June 2020 09:21:02 AM

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

Some progress with reporting the madness at the flash 2 councillors have been in touch and will make enquiries for us.

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

I am trying my best to bring these offences to the attention of the council, councillors and Police, the police are indifferent to it even being an offence, my council contacts are on Furlow so it's down to every one of us to keep reporting it and gathering info and pictures

please post them here or send them to leighos.chairman@gmail.com but in all cases report to the police and your local councillor

-- Edited by David Shallcross on Tuesday 2nd of June 2020 11:18:40 AM

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

Originally posted yesterday by Lez Fairclough:

Unbelievable scenes on the main spit 50yds in front of Horrocks Hide at 4pm with approx 20 people some of them swimming & a BBQ in full swing!

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

Thanks, Colin and Gordon, the site is rapidly going downhill, a lot of birders don't go anymore so there are fewer eyes watching for wrongdoings. The lack of proper wardens and patrols have taken their toll, it's become a free for all, illegal fishing, trespass and out of control dogs. Despite the best efforts of my volunteer group we don't seem to take things forward, last year we put in over 600 hours but that's just fire fighting as they say. I have sent the photos and reported the trespass incidents to 4 council officials who have a responsibility at Pennington. We will see where it goes please keep me informed if you are managing to go down there I have to stay away just now as I have lung issues (job-related).

Gordon Newman · Status: Offline

Hi David, sorry I didn't get any photos, I was so surprised by the time I thought about it they were out of sight. 2 lads probably late teens early twenties both wearing caps with hooddies over the top.

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

Hi, Colin and Gordon, if you can send me the photos i can send them on the WBC to highlight what is going on. Regards David: leighos.chairman@gmail.com

colin davies · Status: Offline

Depressingly, when I arrived in East bay today at 7:30 there was a temporary hide on the end of the spit. It wasn't a angler, it was the type of hide either photographer or a shooter uses. At about 7:45 the person in the hide got out and took the hide down and left. I didn't see either a gun or a camera but whatever he had it was in his large rucksack. I have photos of the person but I'm not going to post them here.

Gordon Newman · Status: Offline

As requested by Ian I have reposted this in response to Colin Davies comments on the sightings page.

Yesterday evening (Wednesday) while stood by Ramsdales Hide 2 guys walked out over scrapes to the middle island and out of view, they weren't carrying anything. When later on the point I looked at the spit and couldn't see them. Maybe these were the same people

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

Next phase of Believe in Leigh funding announced

Plans for a town centre youth hub and new visitor facilities at Pennington Flash are among regeneration projects set to receive Believe in Leigh funding.

Wigan Council has revealed details for the second phase of the £5m fund including projects addressing priority areas highlighted by residents.

Following feedback from two major consultations, improvements to Civic Square, further investment at Leigh Market Hall and a new canal bridge are also among the proposals.

Deputy leader of Wigan Council, Councillor Keith Cunliffe, said: During both the Believe in Leigh consultation and The Big Listening Project, residents told us that combating anti-social behaviour, tackling environmental issues, providing better youth provision and improving public realm facilities were among the most important issues to them.

The first phase of projects saw public realm development to Bradshawgate, a new CCTV network across the town centre, improved street lighting and improved facilities on Market Place.

"These latest exciting schemes have also been developed to respond directly to that feedback.

A total of £1m has been earmarked for youth facilities in the town centre with plans to engage the community to help shape the development.

Scheduled improvements to Pennington Flash include new parking areas, a café, visitor information centre and rooftop seating area.

Refurbishment at Civic Square will include public realm works linked to the regeneration of the Town Hall and supporting the Turnpike Gallery.

A further £500k will be invested to improve customer experience at the ever-popular Leigh market.

Believe in Leigh cash will also be used to boost existing funds for a new canal bridge to connect The Loom retail park to development on West Bridgewater Street.

And Believe in Leigh capital funding will be bolstered by an action plan to tackle crime and anti-social behaviour and improve community cohesion, with representatives of the Council, the police, health and education providers coming together to address the concerns identified by local people.

2021 will be an exciting year for the town, with Leigh playing host to both the Womens Euro Championships and the Rugby League World Cup.

Councillor Cunliffe, who represents Leigh East ward, added: Being a host city for two major tournaments gives us a fantastic opportunity to put Leigh on the map and to create a lasting legacy for our local community.

Were hoping that by 2021 the works to Pennington Flash and projects in the town centre are complete, giving us a fantastic visitor destination to host exciting events connected to the tournaments.

The Believe in Leigh fund was created to respond to community feedback and was subject to its own public consultation.

The results have been supplemented with those from The Big Listening Project that concluded last year.

A further consultation detailing the longer-term economic development masterplan for the town centre will follow later this year.

For more information about Believe in Leigh, visit www.wigan.gov.uk/believeinleigh

Have your say on how to make Leigh a better place.

WIGAN.GOV.UK

Believe in Leigh

Have your say on how to make Leigh a better place.

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

John who are you reporting it to

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

Unfortunately the fishermen are now encamped all along ramsdales reedbed, m fed up of reporting it and nothing getting done, Boats on main flash fishermen in Ramsdales birds don't know,were to go.

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 1st of January 2020 02:40:23 PM

Craig Higson · Status: Offline

Looking at those pictures Dave, it seems like more water came down Westleigh Brook than Hey Brook. The flash was a bit higher than that in the last big flood in 1999 (I think). I remember the visitor centre was almost an island for a day or so with flooding from Westleigh Brook, and it looks like very nearly as much water has come down again!

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

If you are thinking of a nice day in the hides at Penny, forget it, the whole place is underwater. It will need 2/3 dry days for it to drain away.

-- Edited by David Shallcross on Wednesday 31st of July 2019 06:11:11 PM

Craig Higson · Status: Offline

Cheers Dave!

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

I have asked the Sailing Club to remind members of the restrictions, any future sightings please email me: leighos.chairman@gmail.com or let them know on the day. Thanks for highlighting this Craig

Craig Higson · Status: Offline

As I was leaving today a Kayak, two up with what appeared to be two women, was paddling along the north shore towards the spit, on the wrong side of the sailing restriction. They were probably 50m from the shore. I had seen the kayak come from the sailing club earlier so perhaps the sailing club need to remind its members about the limits of their access?

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

The powers that be have acted on our request for a deeper channel to be dug around "disaster Island" When is anybody's guess!!!

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

as suspected the drying out has happened, we are trying to get a barrier put in place.

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

Colin, it's good to hear that the Cowslips have now some protection, as requested. Regarding "disaster Island" can i forward your concerns to both Mark Champion who carried out the work and Graham Workman who authorised it. (not sure where the funds came from)

The subject with also be aired at a forthcoming Greenhart forum meeting.

P.S. for anyone with spare time, the volunteer groups have 3 meetings planned on 24th May - 29th May -6th June. 9-30 am in the carpark. or see https://pennyflashvolunteers.blogspot.co.uk/

colin davies · Status: Offline

Some positive news and some negative news from Pennington Flash today. On the positive side, it's good to see that following my complaint last year which I believe was raised with the council by David Shallcross, part of the glade on the south side with a decent colony of cowslips has been roped off, not to stop people going there, but to stop the council cutting it until after the cowslips have gone to seed. I'm not really sure why they don't just put back cutting the whole glade by a month, but at least they're making an effort.

On the negative side, the worst fears of some of us have been confirmed regarding the cleared "island" on the kidney pond. We're only in the middle of May and though we've had some sunshine, it's not exactly been a drought, yet even so the ditch which separates the island from the mainland is already virtually dry. My guess is that by the end of August it won't be recognisable as an island and we'll have people and dogs on it. If dogs are splashing around in the water off the far side of the island they potentially risk disturbing birds on the spit. I'm still not sure what they were trying to achieve by clearing the island but unless they still have more work to do, I think we can say that whatever it was it failed.

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

If you get no joy on 101 then use 999 as motorbikes on narrow and well used tracks like that pose a serious hazard and could easily end up involving pedestrians.

Craig Higson · Status: Offline

Good luck on 101. Took me over 1/2 an hour to get through last time I tried. Ive had more success tweeting my local police. For Leigh its @GMPLeigh. Tweet em now and you might see something in a day or two as its obviously not instant, but it will get seen.

Ian McKerchar · Status: Offline

This is a Police issue John, not only as they're breaking the law riding those tracks but its also poses a serious risk to the public. The more it is reported to them (probably via 101) the greater the likelihood they will act.

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

Today again some off road motor biker ripping the tracks up on the south bank for the second day running,which is not good. I tried phoning the Golf club to report it 3 times ,but no answer, in fact ive never got through when I have phoned the number online for the golf shop.

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

?

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

.

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Monday 20th of November 2017 06:43:44 AM

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

ok

-- Edited by David Shallcross on Sunday 19th of November 2017 11:38:28 PM

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

Someone in one of the rescue boats from the boat clubs spent the afternoon from 2pm to 4pm going from the very west end to the very east end of the flash not fast, just steady ,at least 30 times,it may have been a boat check,I don't know ,but it could have been done on one area ,instead he put every bird up on almost every trip and then spent the last half hour going through the Gull Roost disturbing all those at one point about 5000 birds were in the air at one time,and I don't think he even noticed they were there. -typical flash afternoon, no wonder the wildfowl numbers are so low, many left and didn't come back .

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Saturday 18th of November 2017 07:04:58 AM

John Watson · Status: Offline

There are no current planning applications: https://apps.wigan.gov.uk/planapps
Search for "Sorrow Cow"

Always best to ask the owner directly if there's an opportunity

colin davies · Status: Offline

Any idea what's happening at Sorrowcow farm at the moment? A large area has been covered in hard-core right on the edge of the flash and it looks like something is going up.

Craig Higson · Status: Offline

Arrived on site this morning around 0.730 to find an angler parked on the shoreline near the slipway next to Horrocks Hide. I challenged him but he said he didn't know he couldn't be there and staff had driven past last night without saying anything. Obviously no idea whether the last bit is true but another indication of how much this site needs staffing. I phoned it through to the golf shop and they said someone would come out. No sign 20 mins later but I guess they don't start till kater

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

A little update for you:- The final day of willow pulling/pruning on the spit for this year, so on we went to Ramsdales to do the same on the last of the Islands.

Just six of the group today but we got through what we had set out to do, well done to all.

We are now seeing some progress from our work throughout the 12 months we have been active as a group.

We have clocked up 538 volunteer hours and 31 people have participated, my thanks to you all.

I would also say thank you to Graham Workman, Mike King, Michael Fishwick for their assistance and Geoff Fletcher for his help, guidance and advice.

Finally thanks to Wigan Councils "The Deal" for funding.

Anyone wanting to join us please get in touch

,

it is a very therapeutic way of spending a few hours with others who like some of the group

are

suffering from anxiety problems, come on in blow the cobwebs away and find new friends doing a very worthwhile job.

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

up date on LOS PF volunteers

The work we planned in the Teal scrape had to be abandoned today as the water levels at Pennington are over the access paths. A contingency plan was adopted so we proceeded to an area at the top end of the main drag past Tom Edmondson's Hide and on the left just before the canal footbridge. A good place for insects, butterflies etc, which had started to be colonised by tree species. We cleared the area of the saplings in readiness for mowing by site staff, this should improve the patch for the wildflowers that the insects need. Next week we intend to get on the Teal scrape again to open up for viewing into the left-hand reedbed before it's too late, as soon winter visitors will be arriving (hopefully a Bittern ) We will meet next Wednesday 20th September at 9-30am on the car park

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

Update on the meadow at Pennington Flash ....Southside, the council have put large tree trunks around the meadow in an attempt to stop it getting cut.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/leighos/

colin davies · Status: Offline

John Watson wrote:
David
It's easy for the driver's manager to forget to give instructions, or for the driver to forget them on the day

Perhaps a more reliable protection would be to change the diary date of this mowing ?

Do the cowslips & other flowering plants need reseeding, or will they recover ?

Yes it's pretty much as simple as that. Don't mow the grass at this time of year. The plants will probably recover if left alone, personally I'm not in favour of reseeding because it wouldn't be the first time that the wrong seeds have been used and you'll end up with German cowslips instead of native British, plus a collection of other plants that shouldn't really be there, and then it becomes a man made garden rather than a natural grassland. Cowslips are perennials so one season of being mown should not wipe them out as long as it doesn't keep happening, plus a few early flowering plants had probably already gone to seed before it was cut.

Somebody suggested that I report this via the Wigan council website, which I have done. I don't know if you've ever gone down this route, but you go into Report an Issue, then into Parks and open areas until you get a list of sub headings where you can log your issue. Tellingly there is no sub heading relating to damage to nature reserves or destruction of wildflower meadows, but there are plenty of other sub headings such as "grass needs cutting". This sums up the British mentality to me. People must seriously go onto the council Web site to complain that the grass needs cutting, yet there is nowhere to complain that a wildflower meadow has been cut. We're a nation obsessed with cutting the grass and manicuring wild places and I have no doubt that this why the tractor driver just mowed without thinking. If as much time was devoted to managing places for wildlife instead of casually and lazily destroying them with a mower, a trowl and a spade simply to make them (allegedly) more aesthetically pleasing to the eyes of the uneducated, we'd have a chance of reversing the declines in our wildlife. But no, we'd rather see a monotone green lawn than a grassland full of flowers, bees, butterflies and hoverflies.

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

hi, John, I'm no boffin on plants, but I'm sure mowing should not take place until after they have set seed. The meadows had marker posts in them to remind the driver not to mow beyond them, but they keep being stollen.

The Council are looking into the matter and to how to resolve it.

David

John Watson · Status: Offline

David
It's easy for the driver's manager to forget to give instructions, or for the driver to forget them on the day

Perhaps a more reliable protection would be to change the diary date of this mowing ?

Do the cowslips & other flowering plants need reseeding, or will they recover ?

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

hi Colin here is an extract from the minutes of yesterday's meeting regarding the unfortunate mowing incident this week. 
 
No consolation but it's reported and hopefully never repeated

Pennington Flash User Group Meeting

12TH May 2017.

Present: Michael Fishwick  Leisure & Property Wigan Council. 

Geoff Fletcher Groundsman for WLCT. Terrin Turner  British Horse Society. 

David Shallcross & Joan Disley  Leigh Ornithological Society. Brian Lythgoe  Pennington Golf Club

Bridleways & Access Forum: Terrin attended the meeting and said that all was well they had no issues at all.

Leigh Ornithological Society: David and I attended. My first question was about the cutting of the meadows on the south side of the flash that David had emailed to me from the LOS Facebook site. Geoff said that the markers put down so the tractor/grass cutter knew not to cut behind them had been taken up by someone so the tractor driver just continued and cut it all. Why he thought it was ok to mow down Cowslips I will never know. Geoff and Michael said they will try to resolve this so it doesnt happen again, they will speak directly to the tractor driver before any future cutting.

colin davies · Status: Offline

Thanks David

If I can get down I will, however 2:30 is not the best time for me on Friday.

Colin

David Shallcross · Status: Offline

Hi, Colin, I have seen your very concerning post on LOS facebook. There is a Pennington Flash User Group Meeting at the Flash on Friday 2-30pm, myself and Joan will bring these issues to the meeting, ONCE again. We are fighting a losing battle at the moment but will plug away with the authorities both at the PFUG and Greenheart forum.

Regards and keep reporting issues, please. David

colin davies · Status: Offline

As if we didn't have enough to contend with, hides being burnt down, anglers in Rammies, canoists going off piste, kids on the spit, Leigh Fire and Rescue practicing in front of Ramsedales hide, plus a whole lot more, it also appears that Wigan Council is devoid of conservation know how. Take a look at the attached photos, a formerly beautiful glade on the south side of the flash which two days ago had a wide array of wild flowers including cowslips (see the last photo, taken last week) has been butchered by being mown. This is an act of vandalism by the council on a par with the East Bay hide being burnt down and somebody needs to be held to account or at least retrained. Yes I accept that grasslands need mowing (or grazing) in order to maintain them as grasslands but to do it in May, right in the middle of the cowslip flowering season and just as other plants are putting out buds shows a complete ignorance of conservation and habitat management by Wigan Council. Instead of a wild flower meadow full of colour and invertabrates, we are now left with a lifeless lawn suitable only for exercising dogs and all that they bring (and leave). I might also add that this is the ONLY area at the flash where cowslips grow, so basically the entire population has been destroyed before it had time to go to seed. I absolutely despair at times, the sign at the entrance to Pennington Flash says "nature reserve", but it's a long way from being that.

Zoe Barrett · Status: Offline

This afternoon on main flash 3 canoeists seen going outside of buoys and flushing a load of Goldeneye. Ridiculous when they have the rest of the flash to themselves.

JOHN TYMON · Status: Offline

An afternoon on the flash that was highlighted more for disturbance than the birds themselves,The flash was full of boats ,so everything flushed into Ramsdales,and then were flushed back out of there by fishermen who for some reason decide to fish in Ramsdales reedbed ,where there is no fishing allowed when they have the whole flash almost to go at,so the birds ended up at plank lane end,then just before dusk someone came out paddling round the edge of the flash on what looked like a surfboard,he was stood on it and flushed all the birds from Plank lane end then came along the rucks and flushed the whole Gull roost of about 5000 birds ,there seems little peace for birds at the flash these days . :(