How would I get more involved in the local birding/wildlife community? I'm certainly not young (36), have a young child and a full time job as a sustainability manager for the NHS so don't have huge amounts of time, and generally get out either at dawn or dusk where I can, but I'm not entirely sure how to meet other interested people aside from through forums like this or by chatting with anyone I see while out with my bins.
I met a nice chap who spotted I was wearing bins and gave me some tips on where to go. I live at the side of Amberswood. I *think* I saw a Marsh Harrier on Bryn Flash whilst everyone was watching England play which was exciting!
John Watson said
Sun Jun 30 9:53 AM, 2024
I'll confess I don't visit Pennie as frequently as I used to
1) It's getting too busy for my taste - that's good for the site & people in general, just not what I want
2) I prefer winter & spring visits, birds are more interesting then
3) If I travel to a site, I'd like a large range of species these days (ie, less total travelling & better use of my time)
4) Patchwork doesn't really suit me, I like variety
But, it's a fabulous site that I should visit more often
As for younger birders, they all have screens that take up much of their spare time, but it's up to the parents to get them to nature reserves. It's a losing battle, and sadly a permanent trend
JOHN TYMON said
Sat Jun 29 7:39 AM, 2024
I will keep it short as I could write a book on the subject, but they were totally different times in the 1970s/1980s . When I was 12 in 1976 , I would come home from School, grab my bins , jump on a bus to Leigh then walk down the canal to Pennington Flash spending most evenings until dark down there , end up at the plank lane end were I would catch 2 buses back home. Can anyone imagine any parent allowing any child to do that these days? No chance , but without that freedom the birding part is not the same .
These days kids in primary school have electronic games by the time they are 6, by 7 they all start carrying phones which they stare at , during any free opportunity. The idea that they willingly go walking in the countryside is so alien to them they would think you mad to suggest it. Its not just birding that has less youngsters, were are the people fishing these days , when I was a kid you couldn't get a peg on the canal from Pennington Flash to Astley, again parents would not allow their children these days to go fishing on their own, so they don't bother.
Sadly its more appealing to children to sit in a bedroom , watching nonsense on face book, or you tube than actually go out doing some outdoor hobby.
Also don't have this vision there were hundreds birding in the late 1970s and 1980s for much of that time there were probably half a dozen regulars actually birding penny and finding the birds. There may have been another 20 you saw once or twice a month , but the core was very small and in reality 3 or 4 young birders who went day in day out.
There is no point harking back to those times they will never be repeated, and also to add there was no social media , letting birders know down to the foot exactly were birds were seen in those days unlike today were armchair birders can look on watts app and decide whether to go to see a rare bird hundreds of miles away or not. In those days you went out and found your own birds ,you only found out about rare birds in the LOS(Leigh Ornithological Society) newsletter when the birds had already moved on and the thought at that time of leaving Pennington Flash to go to wigan flashes because a rare bird had been seen there , was unknown. Frank Horrocks wouldn't go to Wigan Flashes even when a Pratincole was recorded there, so totally different times that cannot be compared with the watts app generation of today.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Saturday 29th of June 2024 08:04:27 AM
Steve Christmas said
Tue Jun 25 10:01 AM, 2024
Following on from these comments re: Little Stint, back in the 1980s I went into Horrock's Hide and there were several birders already in there. I spotted 2 Little Stint and when I mentioned it to the birders present, they had seen them but hadn't mentioned them to me when I went in. So things were not so great in the old days!
colin davies said
Tue Jun 25 8:52 AM, 2024
Two good points Simon, especially regarding the lack of birds. Take waders as an example, in 1983 I saw a flock of 110 little stints at Frodsham. I bet there's not a site in Britain gets such numbers now. Double figures seem exceptional anywhere. Birdguides reports little stints from all around the country even when there's just a single bird at a site. Wader numbers have crashed in recent years. So wader passage was bound to be a lot better back then because not only did places like the spit at Pennington Flash provide good habitat, there were more birds generally. A combination of much reduced wader numbers and the spit no longer providing good habitat means that the chances of a good wader now really are much reduced. These days it's a good day if I see a dunlin or a redshank. What is there to make a young birder want to spend time at the flash?
In some ways the lack of older birders at a place like Pennington Flash worries me more than the lack of younger people because I know that younger birders are out there but just birding in a different way to the way I started. When I was in my late teens, I went to places like Pennington Flash and Horrock's hide was packed and the spit looked great for attracting birds. There were younger and older birders in the hide who I could learn a lot from and I was happy to sit there for a while talking to them, waiting and watching. It felt exciting.
I go in Horrock's now and often I'm the first one in and the windows are all closed and it's dark, even at midday. Before fully committing to going in I have a nervous glance inside to make sure that there are no unsavoury character's inside, because sometimes there are and I beat a hasty retreat. I open the windows and the spit is overgrown, it doesn't look loved. There's a few mallards in front of the hide but most birds are only on the very end of the spit and if it's been raining often even that is covered by water. There's nobody in the hides these days. Even the few regulars who do still go don't go in the hides, in fact most visit the flash outside of hide opening hours. So if a young person goes into Horrock's what he / she now finds is an empty, dark, cold, slightly scary place with very poor habitat in front and little chance of seeing many birds. Nobody to ask "what's about?". If they go for a walk it's the same story at all of the other hides, and they almost certainly won't meet another birder. Nobody to learn from, no incentive to stay, no incentive to come back. And a young mother who says to her child "lets go in here to see the birds" has the same experience. Why would the child ask "Mummy can I have a pair of binoculars?".
The problem isn't just young birders who are AWOL at the flash, it's actually a whole birding community of all age groups that has vanished. All that remains are the remnants of that community, most of whom visit at dawn and dusk and are not really around to help or mentor new birders. And I could say the same of other places, even Martin Mere has lost it's birding community. I used to go in Ron Barker / Millers Bridge hide every Saturday and sit there most of the day and knew virtually everybody in the packed hide. These days I go in and there might be one other person there.
-- Edited by colin davies on Tuesday 25th of June 2024 09:32:51 AM
Simon Gough said
Fri Jun 21 3:55 PM, 2024
Don't disagree with Andy's observations, just got a few thoughts to add.
One factor is that young people need to feel safe, brought up in a bubble of car journeys and being told that there is risk around every corner. If you suggested to a suburban kid in Stockport that they should head to Adswood Tip to go birding they would conceivably think you were mad. Expectations of facilities are higher, leisure is a highly managed and regulated thing now.
Another is that there are a lot less birds than 30 years ago, so some places that might have held some great stuff will have declined in value for that simple reason, even if other factors were consistent. The diminishing returns will funnel new birders into managed reserves that can 'guarantee' decent stuff
Andy Slee said
Tue Jun 18 10:29 PM, 2024
Separate thread from the the one discussion state of play at Pennington entitled "RE: Leigh and Lowton Sailing Club anti-gull stance!?" which muses on habitat decline and younger birders.....
I was introduced to birding in the 1970s via relatives of a Yorkshire based RSPB group, monthly meetings, coach trips etc, you got to know who was who, if you were lucky for the rare birds you might be privileged enough to get the phone number for the county recorder (we didn't have a home 'phone until 1984 anyway) but work through youth schemes etc got you out into the environment as well - our Scout group helped remediate Rother Valley. Likewise, wife was in the YOC - she was Irish YOC member of the year in late 1980s at one point due to Corncrakes on her Dads farm - there seemed to be more of a respect for nature there at that time.
I dropped out of birding for a while in the early 1990s, came back late 1990s when I worked at Solvay by Moore in Warrington, then dropped off again as kids came early 2000s then got back into birding 2009 and scaled back as a failed twitcher to patching in 2019. Patch Moore, Marbury and Witton is probably my second most visited place, then North Wales Coast / Woolston.
What never fails to amaze me is for example now Moore (just look at the thread on hear) the place has no birders. 2021/2022 I recorded nearly 1000hrs there yet I never saw more than ten or eleven different birders each year. You can guess my age from what I have written and I've only met three birders younger than me, and they where there to photo the site special Woodpecker! When I ask about why don't more of us meet up..................the answer is I can see where the birds are online, webpages, bird services. Seems we've reduced the need for "contact between birders" at local patches and even further levels to being inorganic.
It makes me happy sometimes when I am 75 miles away from Moore and I meet someone that used to "patch Upper Moss Side in the 1970s, saw a Gull-billed Tern on the estuary", or someone else that remembers the site from ringing Bearded Tits before the landfill was built, or in Germany bumping into a Birder that "loved Richmond Bank"...........yet no one seems to be at the patch any more.
And I don't have any answers (esp re Moore, though I was speaking to an individual in the Mersey Gateway Trust recently and it is possible Moore might come back on their radar)..............BUT WHY if there is no one to help create an environment where biodiversity can increase, be enjoyed and monitored........would young people join..........
....and we need new generations as they are they future..?
-- Edited by Andy Slee on Tuesday 18th of June 2024 10:31:52 PM
I'll confess I don't visit Pennie as frequently as I used to
1) It's getting too busy for my taste - that's good for the site & people in general, just not what I want
2) I prefer winter & spring visits, birds are more interesting then
3) If I travel to a site, I'd like a large range of species these days (ie, less total travelling & better use of my time)
4) Patchwork doesn't really suit me, I like variety
But, it's a fabulous site that I should visit more often
As for younger birders, they all have screens that take up much of their spare time, but it's up to the parents to get them to nature reserves. It's a losing battle, and sadly a permanent trend
I will keep it short as I could write a book on the subject, but they were totally different times in the 1970s/1980s . When I was 12 in 1976 , I would come home from School, grab my bins , jump on a bus to Leigh then walk down the canal to Pennington Flash spending most evenings until dark down there , end up at the plank lane end were I would catch 2 buses back home. Can anyone imagine any parent allowing any child to do that these days? No chance , but without that freedom the birding part is not the same .
These days kids in primary school have electronic games by the time they are 6, by 7 they all start carrying phones which they stare at , during any free opportunity. The idea that they willingly go walking in the countryside is so alien to them they would think you mad to suggest it. Its not just birding that has less youngsters, were are the people fishing these days , when I was a kid you couldn't get a peg on the canal from Pennington Flash to Astley, again parents would not allow their children these days to go fishing on their own, so they don't bother.
Sadly its more appealing to children to sit in a bedroom , watching nonsense on face book, or you tube than actually go out doing some outdoor hobby.
Also don't have this vision there were hundreds birding in the late 1970s and 1980s for much of that time there were probably half a dozen regulars actually birding penny and finding the birds. There may have been another 20 you saw once or twice a month , but the core was very small and in reality 3 or 4 young birders who went day in day out.
There is no point harking back to those times they will never be repeated, and also to add there was no social media , letting birders know down to the foot exactly were birds were seen in those days unlike today were armchair birders can look on watts app and decide whether to go to see a rare bird hundreds of miles away or not. In those days you went out and found your own birds ,you only found out about rare birds in the LOS(Leigh Ornithological Society) newsletter when the birds had already moved on and the thought at that time of leaving Pennington Flash to go to wigan flashes because a rare bird had been seen there , was unknown. Frank Horrocks wouldn't go to Wigan Flashes even when a Pratincole was recorded there, so totally different times that cannot be compared with the watts app generation of today.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Saturday 29th of June 2024 08:04:27 AM
Following on from these comments re: Little Stint, back in the 1980s I went into Horrock's Hide and there were several birders already in there. I spotted 2 Little Stint and when I mentioned it to the birders present, they had seen them but hadn't mentioned them to me when I went in. So things were not so great in the old days!
Two good points Simon, especially regarding the lack of birds. Take waders as an example, in 1983 I saw a flock of 110 little stints at Frodsham. I bet there's not a site in Britain gets such numbers now. Double figures seem exceptional anywhere. Birdguides reports little stints from all around the country even when there's just a single bird at a site. Wader numbers have crashed in recent years. So wader passage was bound to be a lot better back then because not only did places like the spit at Pennington Flash provide good habitat, there were more birds generally. A combination of much reduced wader numbers and the spit no longer providing good habitat means that the chances of a good wader now really are much reduced. These days it's a good day if I see a dunlin or a redshank. What is there to make a young birder want to spend time at the flash?
In some ways the lack of older birders at a place like Pennington Flash worries me more than the lack of younger people because I know that younger birders are out there but just birding in a different way to the way I started. When I was in my late teens, I went to places like Pennington Flash and Horrock's hide was packed and the spit looked great for attracting birds. There were younger and older birders in the hide who I could learn a lot from and I was happy to sit there for a while talking to them, waiting and watching. It felt exciting.
I go in Horrock's now and often I'm the first one in and the windows are all closed and it's dark, even at midday. Before fully committing to going in I have a nervous glance inside to make sure that there are no unsavoury character's inside, because sometimes there are and I beat a hasty retreat. I open the windows and the spit is overgrown, it doesn't look loved. There's a few mallards in front of the hide but most birds are only on the very end of the spit and if it's been raining often even that is covered by water. There's nobody in the hides these days. Even the few regulars who do still go don't go in the hides, in fact most visit the flash outside of hide opening hours. So if a young person goes into Horrock's what he / she now finds is an empty, dark, cold, slightly scary place with very poor habitat in front and little chance of seeing many birds. Nobody to ask "what's about?". If they go for a walk it's the same story at all of the other hides, and they almost certainly won't meet another birder. Nobody to learn from, no incentive to stay, no incentive to come back. And a young mother who says to her child "lets go in here to see the birds" has the same experience. Why would the child ask "Mummy can I have a pair of binoculars?".
The problem isn't just young birders who are AWOL at the flash, it's actually a whole birding community of all age groups that has vanished. All that remains are the remnants of that community, most of whom visit at dawn and dusk and are not really around to help or mentor new birders. And I could say the same of other places, even Martin Mere has lost it's birding community. I used to go in Ron Barker / Millers Bridge hide every Saturday and sit there most of the day and knew virtually everybody in the packed hide. These days I go in and there might be one other person there.
-- Edited by colin davies on Tuesday 25th of June 2024 09:32:51 AM
One factor is that young people need to feel safe, brought up in a bubble of car journeys and being told that there is risk around every corner. If you suggested to a suburban kid in Stockport that they should head to Adswood Tip to go birding they would conceivably think you were mad. Expectations of facilities are higher, leisure is a highly managed and regulated thing now.
Another is that there are a lot less birds than 30 years ago, so some places that might have held some great stuff will have declined in value for that simple reason, even if other factors were consistent. The diminishing returns will funnel new birders into managed reserves that can 'guarantee' decent stuff
Separate thread from the the one discussion state of play at Pennington entitled "RE: Leigh and Lowton Sailing Club anti-gull stance!?" which muses on habitat decline and younger birders.....
I was introduced to birding in the 1970s via relatives of a Yorkshire based RSPB group, monthly meetings, coach trips etc, you got to know who was who, if you were lucky for the rare birds you might be privileged enough to get the phone number for the county recorder (we didn't have a home 'phone until 1984 anyway) but work through youth schemes etc got you out into the environment as well - our Scout group helped remediate Rother Valley. Likewise, wife was in the YOC - she was Irish YOC member of the year in late 1980s at one point due to Corncrakes on her Dads farm - there seemed to be more of a respect for nature there at that time.
I dropped out of birding for a while in the early 1990s, came back late 1990s when I worked at Solvay by Moore in Warrington, then dropped off again as kids came early 2000s then got back into birding 2009 and scaled back as a failed twitcher to patching in 2019. Patch Moore, Marbury and Witton is probably my second most visited place, then North Wales Coast / Woolston.
What never fails to amaze me is for example now Moore (just look at the thread on hear) the place has no birders. 2021/2022 I recorded nearly 1000hrs there yet I never saw more than ten or eleven different birders each year. You can guess my age from what I have written and I've only met three birders younger than me, and they where there to photo the site special Woodpecker! When I ask about why don't more of us meet up..................the answer is I can see where the birds are online, webpages, bird services. Seems we've reduced the need for "contact between birders" at local patches and even further levels to being inorganic.
It makes me happy sometimes when I am 75 miles away from Moore and I meet someone that used to "patch Upper Moss Side in the 1970s, saw a Gull-billed Tern on the estuary", or someone else that remembers the site from ringing Bearded Tits before the landfill was built, or in Germany bumping into a Birder that "loved Richmond Bank"...........yet no one seems to be at the patch any more.
And I don't have any answers (esp re Moore, though I was speaking to an individual in the Mersey Gateway Trust recently and it is possible Moore might come back on their radar)..............BUT WHY if there is no one to help create an environment where biodiversity can increase, be enjoyed and monitored........would young people join..........
....and we need new generations as they are they future..?
-- Edited by Andy Slee on Tuesday 18th of June 2024 10:31:52 PM