...forgot to say no matter what this bird turns out to be, its definitely an interesting thread. A picture is being put together made up of other forum members experiences and bits of info being thrown in.
Rob Creek said
Thu Mar 11 11:29 PM, 2021
Steve Scrimgeour wrote:
Guys,
This was taken not by me but at Sale Water Park..
Which is a Willow Tit Haunt......
Thanks
Presumably the image taker isnt a forum member Steve? And as mentioned earlier in the thread, are there more images or were vocalisations heard or recorded?
I think the white spot on the bill (or cutting edge as it is referred to in some literature) is probably originally thought to have been a Marsh Tit feature, or at least predominantly a Marsh Tit feature, and is likely to have caused debate for some time and will continue to do so. I dont think anyone was dismissing it as merely a photographic effect John, possibly more along the lines of...was the light affecting the prominence of how that white area is perceived, but I do think you could be correct in your assumption that it may be more common than we think. Cheers
John Rayner said
Thu Mar 11 6:53 PM, 2021
A couple of years ago there was a Willow Tit at Ludworth Moor that prompted discussion. It gave the appropriate Willow Tit call but showed a pale spot on the lower mandible.
I did some reading on the ID at the time and an old British Birds article (BB Nov 2009) indicated that around 4% of Willow Tits can show some sort of pale bill mark.
Some months later photograph of a Willow Tit from Pennington Flash also showed the pale spot. I dont think all these can be dismissed as photographic effect, in fact I think it may be more common than suggested.
Steve - you dont have to answer if you dont want to, Im not sure I understand your comment as to why you wont give the location ... away opinion? There have been a few in GM after all.
John Watson said
Thu Mar 11 10:25 AM, 2021
A factor in this is what the camera's up to. I'm certainly not an expert in photography, though!
There are no strong shadows, so it's cloudy, not great lighting conditions. The camera is compensating by brightening the image, so misrepresenting what was seen directly. That will surely affect impressions of light reflection on the secondaries & tail
I'll leave it to others to discuss the fine detail, but I can't see why it isn't the relatively more common Willow Tit
Perhaps Steve can tell Ian by PM if it's at a known Willow Tit site?
Rob Creek said
Thu Mar 11 9:43 AM, 2021
Steve ... I had one of these problem birds a few years ago, somewhere in Yorkshire (North Cave?), I remember sending Ian the photos. Id also tried to match up some of the plumage features that John and Ian has mentioned and decifer which applied to which species. But it can become rather confusing when you read that a feature normally seen in one species could also be seen in the other, maybe not as often, or maybe not as well defined. You suddenly realise there is a bit of a overlap with these 2 species and it is very subjective. I think the one I saw had the white spot on the upper mandible, and for some reason I was mainly going with that and was leaning towards Marsh Tit but then you realise (I certainly didnt know at the time) that it can be seen in Willow Tit too! Ian pointed out at the time there was a particular feature lending itself quite well to one of the species. Id overlooked the obvious pale wing bar produced by the pale fringes to the secondaries and the tertials, and in that instance the light wasnt a contributing factor in the images. Ultimately it was a Willow Tit.
Hope this helps.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Thursday 11th of March 2021 09:44:44 AM
Mike Crawley said
Thu Mar 11 9:08 AM, 2021
Steve,
Willow Tit 100% for me too.
With photos of this quality it might be worth looking into Cornell Universitys Merlin bird ID App.
Its definitely divided opinion on a couple of other sites..
Although the majority are saying Willow...
Many thanks both for taking the time to explain and give your opinions, appreciated..
Regards Steve
Ian McKerchar said
Wed Mar 10 11:54 PM, 2021
These are rarely easy on such plumage alone and the location and time of year are of course often helpful in order to ascertain certain potentially important aspects.
Could the apparent secondary panel really be light reflection (I note the tail feathers look similarly 'silvery') or was it really that pale and obvious in the field? Is that a pale spot at the base of the upper mandible or a figment of my imagination or a photographic effect (Willow can occasionally show it regardless)? Is there a hint of a 'comma mark' on the cheeks, white in front of it and slightly shaded behind it and is that really so important to identification anyway?
Either way, little plumage/bare part detail is perhaps really (completely) confirmatory with these two species and its perhaps subjective in the images, so I'd be asking (hoping) if any of its vocalisations were heard (and particularly recorded if it was a suspected Marsh in GM), wanting further images and to know where it was . I suspect this’ll turn out to be a Willow though?
JOHN TYMON said
Wed Mar 10 9:19 PM, 2021
Steve Scrimgeour wrote:
Guys,
Please can I ask your opinion on this bird I am not saying where it's taken as it may away opinion it's Manchester.
-- Edited by Steve Scrimgeour on Wednesday 10th of March 2021 09:02:05 PM
Pale wing panel, Dull Cap , bib area still moulting slightly patchy, dark bib will be larger in a few weeks , for me a 1st Winter Willow Tit.
Steve Scrimgeour said
Wed Mar 10 8:54 PM, 2021
Guys,
Please can I ask your opinion on this bird I am not saying where it's taken as it may away opinion it's Manchester.
-- Edited by Steve Scrimgeour on Wednesday 10th of March 2021 09:02:05 PM
Presumably the image taker isnt a forum member Steve? And as mentioned earlier in the thread, are there more images or were vocalisations heard or recorded?
I think the white spot on the bill (or cutting edge as it is referred to in some literature) is probably originally thought to have been a Marsh Tit feature, or at least predominantly a Marsh Tit feature, and is likely to have caused debate for some time and will continue to do so.
I dont think anyone was dismissing it as merely a photographic effect John, possibly more along the lines of...was the light affecting the prominence of how that white area is perceived, but I do think you could be correct in your assumption that it may be more common than we think.
Cheers
I did some reading on the ID at the time and an old British Birds article (BB Nov 2009) indicated that around 4% of Willow Tits can show some sort of pale bill mark.
Some months later photograph of a Willow Tit from Pennington Flash also showed the pale spot. I dont think all these can be dismissed as photographic effect, in fact I think it may be more common than suggested.
Cheers, John
This was taken not by me but at Sale Water Park..
Which is a Willow Tit Haunt......
Thanks
There are no strong shadows, so it's cloudy, not great lighting conditions. The camera is compensating by brightening the image, so misrepresenting what was seen directly. That will surely affect impressions of light reflection on the secondaries & tail
I'll leave it to others to discuss the fine detail, but I can't see why it isn't the relatively more common Willow Tit
Perhaps Steve can tell Ian by PM if it's at a known Willow Tit site?
Id also tried to match up some of the plumage features that John and Ian has mentioned and decifer which applied to which species. But it can become rather confusing when you read that a feature normally seen in one species could also be seen in the other, maybe not as often, or maybe not as well defined. You suddenly realise there is a bit of a overlap with these 2 species and it is very subjective.
I think the one I saw had the white spot on the upper mandible, and for some reason I was mainly going with that and was leaning towards Marsh Tit but then you realise (I certainly didnt know at the time) that it can be seen in Willow Tit too!
Ian pointed out at the time there was a particular feature lending itself quite well to one of the species. Id overlooked the obvious pale wing bar produced by the pale fringes to the secondaries and the tertials, and in that instance the light wasnt a contributing factor in the images.
Ultimately it was a Willow Tit.
Hope this helps.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Thursday 11th of March 2021 09:44:44 AM
Willow Tit 100% for me too.
With photos of this quality it might be worth looking into Cornell Universitys Merlin bird ID App.
merlin.allaboutbirds.org/
Its definitely divided opinion on a couple of other sites..
Although the majority are saying Willow...
Many thanks both for taking the time to explain and give your opinions, appreciated..
Regards
Steve
These are rarely easy on such plumage alone and the location and time of year are of course often helpful in order to ascertain certain potentially important aspects.
Could the apparent secondary panel really be light reflection (I note the tail feathers look similarly 'silvery') or was it really that pale and obvious in the field? Is that a pale spot at the base of the upper mandible or a figment of my imagination or a photographic effect (Willow can occasionally show it regardless)? Is there a hint of a 'comma mark' on the cheeks, white in front of it and slightly shaded behind it and is that really so important to identification anyway?
Either way, little plumage/bare part detail is perhaps really (completely) confirmatory with these two species and its perhaps subjective in the images, so I'd be asking (hoping) if any of its vocalisations were heard (and particularly recorded if it was a suspected Marsh in GM), wanting further images and to know where it was
. I suspect this’ll turn out to be a Willow though?
Pale wing panel, Dull Cap , bib area still moulting slightly patchy, dark bib will be larger in a few weeks , for me a 1st Winter Willow Tit.
Please can I ask your opinion on this bird
I am not saying where it's taken as it may away opinion it's Manchester.
-- Edited by Steve Scrimgeour on Wednesday 10th of March 2021 09:02:05 PM