Is there any need for comments of that nature? Iolo Williams is a decent guy undeserving of unpleasant comments.
Mike, I don't believe that Andy was making unpleasant comments about Iolo, the mistake was on the map, presumably prepared by the BBC backroom staff.
I certainly wasn't. In fact I sent him a tweet telling him he should slap the wrist of whoever prepared the map. It wasn't malicious at all in any case!
sid ashton said
Sat Oct 31 1:02 PM, 2020
Mike Berry wrote:
Is there any need for comments of that nature? Iolo Williams is a decent guy undeserving of unpleasant comments.
Mike, I don't believe that Andy was making unpleasant comments about Iolo, the mistake was on the map, presumably prepared by the BBC backroom staff.
Mike Berry said
Sat Oct 31 11:35 AM, 2020
Is there any need for comments of that nature?
-- Edited by Mike Berry on Saturday 31st of October 2020 07:02:18 PM
Andy Bissitt said
Fri Oct 30 9:54 PM, 2020
sid ashton wrote:
It looks like Iolo Williams is going to talk about "our" Vulture on Autumnwatch this evening.
Sid,
Yes he did, but with typical BBC Southern bias, they marked the place it was seen in the Peak District with the name 'Crowdon'.
sid ashton said
Fri Oct 30 1:03 PM, 2020
It looks like Iolo Williams is going to talk about "our" Vulture on Autumnwatch this evening.
Martin Loftus said
Thu Oct 15 5:31 PM, 2020
Then flew back out again at 2pm..the suspense is killing me!
sid ashton said
Thu Oct 15 2:40 PM, 2020
Rob Creek wrote:
Looks like shes headed out to sea from Beachy Head in the last few minutes, wish her a safe flight.
And then u-turned and flew back again 5 minutes later at just after 13.00!!!
Rob Creek said
Thu Oct 15 12:55 PM, 2020
Looks like shes headed out to sea from Beachy Head in the last few minutes, wish her a safe flight.
sid ashton said
Wed Oct 14 4:05 PM, 2020
On the vulture's nickname, I received the following response today from the Derbyshire Wildlife Trust:-
Many Vultures have received names across Europe through the reintroduction projects coordinated by Vulture Conservation Foundation. Naming birds connects local communities to birds and increases awareness about the bird and helps to keep the bird safe. This is why we named the Bearded Vulture that spent a long time in the Peak District this year. We asked people on social media for names, and also amongst colleagues at Derbyshire Wildlife Trust and other organizations for our visiting Bearded Vulture. The name Vigo came up short, memorable and people liked it so Vigo won out. At the time it wasnt clear if the bird was from the Alps or the Pyrenees so Spanish names were put forward and Vigo won out. We now know that Vigo is actually from the French Alps but the name is still being used and is being used by the Vulture Conservation Foundation , based in Europe, as well.
sid ashton said
Tue Oct 13 11:47 AM, 2020
I see the bird referred to as Vigo, a Spanish city - anyone know how it got this nickname?
Rob Creek said
Tue Oct 13 10:20 AM, 2020
The VCF have published this morning, the findings of the DNA analysis of the Lammergeier feathers.
The origin of the bird is from the French Alps and hatched last year in a wild nest.
Rob Creek said
Sun Oct 11 10:20 PM, 2020
Yeah totally agree with that point Andy, she survived a few months in the dark Peak where the norm is Raptors being killed at will without any punishment for the perpetrators and quite easily couldve met a grim end, and yet theoretically she could just as easily be poisoned within 24hrs of being released on her birth doorstep.
Oh well, at least shes on the move in the right direction today as it seems she was reported near the RSPB headquarters in Bedfordshire at 1pm then later over London at 3pm. On the continent now perhaps?
Andy Bissitt said
Sun Oct 11 8:46 PM, 2020
I was watching a programme on Sky Nature the other night under the heading 'Rewilding', and the lammergeier was one of the featured animals. It focused on a reintroduction scheme in Andalucia, where great efforts are being made to get them back into the landscape. The point I'm coming to is that it was stated that 36 (might have been 38) birds had been incubated and raised by naturalists before being released into the wild, but that 'almost half' that number had then died from being poisoned. That's the trouble Rob: putting 'our' bird back where it belongs does not necessarily equate to it then being safer. Wherever raptors are in the World, they are up against the odds.
Rob Creek said
Sun Oct 11 2:42 PM, 2020
Concerns have been raised on social media about the Lammergeiers welfare and its most recent choice of roost, low down in a tree and the accessibility of which makes it easy for observers to get to within what looks like a mere few feet. People are concerned she isnt eating and is looking tatty, but she has been observed many times eating carcass bones since arriving in the UK including since she left the NW, and in my opinion she looks better week on week from a physical appearance and plumage moult point of view. No probs there then?
Photos emerged in the last couple of days of the Lammergeier in the road (one of the B-roads) bringing traffic to a stop and raising new concerns about whether it is now relying on roadkill, some of which are Rodents with the potential to contain rodenticides. I hope people are not throwing butchers bones in the road for it simply to get close views, if so then I am concerned as that would be irresponsible.
There are now calls for it to be trapped and transported back to its origins, easier said than done as the DNA results from feather collection a few days ago arent back yet. This wasnt possible when it was up here as the roost site was virtually inaccessible to do that.
Any thoughts as to whether she is still doing a capable job of looking after herself and has simply picked the wrong county with little, if any, typical Lammergeier terrain? Or are the calls for her capture justified?
Personally I say leave her be, shes finding food and appears to be doing well, and one last thought... could the capture and release interfere with the Lammergeiers natural Philopatric behave to return close to the original birthplace?
John Watson said
Thu Oct 1 8:43 AM, 2020
I think any uncertainty about that obs has evaporated then
Mike Chorley said
Wed Sep 30 7:03 PM, 2020
There was a tweet from someone on the Derbyshire Ornithological Society twitter on Sept 24th claiming to have seen it "quite close up" from "near the stone circle" as it "seemed to glide at incredible speed towards a Black Tor outcrop" as a response to the Society's request for further information after the original 1400hrs report. The poster seems to be an irregular twitter user at best, with no other birding posts on his thread. He didn't respond to requests for pictures or futher info and was the only respondant to the initial request apart from Tim Macrill confirming when asked that there were no juvenile eagles in the area. Mention was also made of it being 'that dreaded Buzzard Vulture again".
John Watson said
Wed Sep 30 11:16 AM, 2020
Not sure if I remember correctly, but I think that obs was withdrawn or rejected
Rob Creek said
Wed Sep 30 10:28 AM, 2020
- Leicestershire on Sunday - Oxfordshire early week - then back to Cutthroat Bridge on Thursday - Norfolk at weekend
Without sounding disrespectful, is the Cutthroat Bridge sighting an unfortunate misidentification?
On its way home!! 'Our' bird seen over Leicestershire today moving SE.
Seen drifting over Thornton Reservoir just NE of Leicester this afternoon, a close up photo was taken so no question it was the Lammergeier (on Twitter).
Andy Bissitt said
Sun Sep 20 9:32 PM, 2020
On its way home!! 'Our' bird seen over Leicestershire today moving SE.
Martin Loftus said
Sat Sep 5 1:21 PM, 2020
Ian Yeomans wrote:
Im intrigued, has the severe loss of tail feathers been a factor in its length of residence on our northern moors? Has the VCF commented on the moult / damage to the tail? Is it typical for this amount of loss to occur in moult? At this age? Though it still looks assured in flight, it must be compensating for this loss, which may affect energy reserves?
I always remember this poor Griffon Vulture I photographed in Tarifa ( Spain) a few years ago.. and it was actually flying around with the others, showing no signs of any disability..Appart from its appearance! It just goes to show the extreme feather loss that these birds can cope with. ..this bird was showing signs of either extreme nutritional deficiencies or it had had a serious accident / survived a shotgun blast..
Great pictures. Looks in fine fettle, with a full complement of emerging tail feathers. Must get back to see her, before she moves on.
Martin Loftus said
Fri Sep 4 9:29 PM, 2020
Having seen the worrying state the bird was in its first few days it appeared in the UK .. I took these last Saturday and it looks so much more healthier now the tail feathers have grown back. Just the overall condition of the bird looks healthier ..it also seems to be a lot more agile in the air.
-- Edited by Martin Loftus on Friday 4th of September 2020 09:29:50 PM
-- Edited by Martin Loftus on Friday 4th of September 2020 09:38:44 PM
I have searched online and while there is info on typical wing pattern moult, I couldnt find info on tail moult. Keep looking!
I hope I can help out with this. To be sure i stand a good chance to help, I have put more info below than probably needed: As the tail in large birds of prey generally takes two years. The wing flight feathers takes longer as (quoat ): "Note [referring to the illustrations in my book] the pointed juvenile quills remaining into the second and even third years." These illustrations show only two phases for the tail feathers unlike the wing feathers. - hence, my (and Rob's) earlier post. Tail feathers are molted in a simular gradual fashion like the wing feathers.
i must emphasise that our vulture has got broken tail feathers, so once the broken tail feathers molt in the first cycle, there will still be a few gaps because of the remaining few that are broken until the 2nd molt season. (This is what I suspect you ment when you said loosing so many feathers is unnatural)
While on this subject i thought it be interesting to note at this point that the body feathers in principle go through a molt faster, in a wave from front to rear. Larger birds again usually take a little longer but the first molt cycle drastically changes their appearance from juvenile. This natural process certainly shows the speed at which they change, as each bird has to be fully quilted up ready in time for the winter season.
The information i have shows either case, the molt cycle isn't always a simple thing and can be very complex and difficult to explain, so I hope this info helps.
Thanks!
ps. Sorry Rob, when I responded to your post, it was on the quoat: "The overall plumage appears to be changing colour slightly too, or is it just me?" That was my fault for giving more info than I planned and not being clear that I was confirming that it was to be expected. My apologies.
-- Edited by Richard Thew on Wednesday 2nd of September 2020 11:07:31 PM
Ian Yeomans said
Wed Sep 2 12:36 PM, 2020
I understand the moult cycle of large raptors, which would indicate loss of so many feathers wasnt natural moult. I have searched online and while there is info on typical wing pattern moult, I couldnt find info on tail moult. Keep looking!
Rob Creek said
Wed Sep 2 11:54 AM, 2020
Ian Yeomans wrote:
Im intrigued, has the severe loss of tail feathers been a factor in its length of residence on our northern moors? Has the VCF commented on the moult / damage to the tail? Is it typical for this amount of loss to occur in moult? At this age? Though it still looks assured in flight, it must be compensating for this loss, which may affect energy reserves?
Hi Ian, the moult in large flying birds with large and long feathers (I dont know about flightless birds?) can take years as previously said, they do it in stages as the bird cant tolerate a high number of feather loss. It renders the bird unable to fly and eventually will starve, hence why they do it so theres enough feathers to keep it airborne.
Whether the loss of tail feathers has had an impact on its time length of temporary residence I wouldnt know. Im not sure if it was the VCF but I read a few weeks ago that the loss of tail feathers could be due to constant attacks from other birds.
As for the energy loss, the consumption of bone marrow will probably make up that loss as it is super rich in energy, fats, protein, vitamins etc.
And yes youre right, despite the feather loss, it does look very much assured in flight. Almost effortless in soaring and manoeuvrability.
Ian Yeomans said
Wed Sep 2 8:38 AM, 2020
Im intrigued, has the severe loss of tail feathers been a factor in its length of residence on our northern moors? Has the VCF commented on the moult / damage to the tail? Is it typical for this amount of loss to occur in moult? At this age? Though it still looks assured in flight, it must be compensating for this loss, which may affect energy reserves?
Rob Creek said
Wed Sep 2 1:28 AM, 2020
Hi Richard, yes Im well aware of the lengthy process of this birds moult, with reference my post below 24th July. -Large bird, long flight feathers, stage moult, etc. My point was that I suspect people werent sure (including myself) if the tail was going to grow back incase there was damage to the feather follicles preventing new growth. Its only just started to show new growth recently. I was merely noting a change in plumage, I certainly wasnt suggesting that it would look like an adult anytime soon, as I know it wont! Cheers
Richard Thew said
Tue Sep 1 12:36 PM, 2020
Some of the broken tail feathers will no doubt have molted out and re-growing. However, i am not expecting it to do a complete molt as birds of prey that size takes some 5 years at least before their plumage changes completely to adulthood.
The information I have regarding molting in birds of prey says: The juvenile quills (flight feathers) some will remain into the second and even third years. The larger the bird, the longer the cycle of molt and larger the time period required. Small birds complete their molt within one season. Eagle sized birds will take a few years. So yes Rob, its quite likely the bearded vulture may start to change colour in its first year of molt, but it will not look like an adult until a few years from now.
Incidentally, the illustrations of the Bearded vulture in my references only has a few illustrations, the oldest immature illustration is in its 3rd year. This is simply because in its 4th year, it will look like an adult, with subtle differences (hence, the 5 years at the start of this post).
Thanks.
-- Edited by Richard Thew on Tuesday 1st of September 2020 12:39:42 PM
Rob Creek said
Sat Aug 29 9:34 AM, 2020
I maybe wrong but recent photos including one from Mark Woodhead on the Longdendale thread, seem to show that the Lammergeier tail may indeed be in moult rather than just damaged for whatever reason. The birds overall plumage appears to be changing colour slightly too, or is it just me??
the powers that be need to get their heads from up their backsides and do the right thing with the facts that are clearly slapping them in their faces.
Is such an offensive comment (in so many ways) really called for?
Are you aware of the workings of the BOURC, their purpose and aims or even their entirely thorough process when considering firsts for Britain, which I can tell you for sure, amounts to more than googling a few web pages and following some folk on social media! Your frankly contemptuous comment would indicate clearly not and that they should seemingly accept such sightings on face value alone or perhaps at the word of others and without more thorough investigation. I appreciate the Internet makes us all ?experts? but sometimes, just sometimes, things are a little more considered than we might think, and for good reason.
The comment was meant colloquially Ian, tongue in cheek if you like! Certainly not meant to be contemptuous. I can only imagine the processes involved, but my point was meant more in the way of the changing world and the fact that different species of birds turn up in increasingly different places due to a whole host of reasons ie.climate change, changing weather patterns (possibly affecting migration sometimes), reintroductions, changing bird habits, habitat loss forcing movement of the species, etc etc, things move forward and in some cases, as in reintroductions, back to where it should be in my view, before mankind wiped out large proportions of some of these species from many areas. Does the BOURC change with the times and take into account all these different factors or are they old school and still work to a set of parameters that they were working to say 20 years ago for instance? I?m asking that because I don?t know.
Quick example... either last year or 2018, Ruddy Shelducks had a bit of an influx if I remember correctly and were reported at quite a few places. Many Duck species are considered plastic or escapes, So in that particular circumstance were all those Ruddy Shels deemed to be escapes? A question I heard a few times whilst out and about.
I?m certainly no expert in any species of bird Ian, nor do I claim to be. As well as books, TV documentaries, and actually studying the bird species itself, the internet is a valuable resource for the vast majority of people, and those web pages or articles / papers / pieces... are there to be read, including your own Ian (some of which I?ve read). I categorically don?t consider or make myself out to be, a Lammergeier expert just because I?ve read a few articles online, but it all adds to the knowledge you pick up over time.
I think the general feeling judging by the last few comments is that the VCF is not the world leading expert body in Vultures that some might consider them to be, a matter of opinion maybe??? When you take into account they?ve only been doing the Lammergeier reintroductions for a minimum of 34 years, a successful 34 years at that, then I?m not sure who else would be? Point being, the BOURC wouldn?t be just accepting the word of others, but would be using the vast experience and extensive knowledge of probably the group in prime position to make a reasonable assumption of origin.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Monday 10th of August 2020 06:40:26 AM
Ian McKerchar said
Sun Aug 9 1:56 PM, 2020
Rob Creek wrote:
the powers that be need to get their heads from up their backsides and do the right thing with the facts that are clearly slapping them in their faces.
Is such an offensive comment (in so many ways) really called for?
Are you aware of the workings of the BOURC, their purpose and aims or even their entirely thorough process when considering firsts for Britain, which I can tell you for sure, amounts to more than googling a few web pages and following some folk on social media! Your frankly contemptuous comment would indicate clearly not and that they should seemingly accept such sightings on face value alone or perhaps at the word of others and without more thorough investigation. I appreciate the Internet makes us all ‘experts’ but sometimes, just sometimes, things are a little more considered than we might think, and for good reason.
sid ashton said
Sun Aug 9 1:40 PM, 2020
Simon Gough wrote:
Hi Sid,
You could easily flip that argument, we've all met that person who says 'well, it could have been wild, it could have come from anywhere' because they want to tick an obvious escape they happen to have seen.
My personal stance with this bird is that it looks a bit scruffy with half its tail gone, so I intend to wait for a better looking one to drop in, hopefully a nice adult.
Hi Simon, the present bird is, as you probably know only the second UK record so you may have quite a wait for "the better looking one to drop in". All the best with it.
Simon Gough said
Sun Aug 9 1:24 PM, 2020
Hey Rob
The lockdown has been the main factor for my birding this year, the Peak District is pretty hard to get to without wheels. I've been telling myself that I'm not interested in stuff that I know will be a challenge logistically!
I found an article on the RBA website by Hans Pohlmann, that I guess is the one you mean? It was interesting but seemed more focussed on the dispersal behaviour and the significance of this on the overall gene pool. It mentions the 2009 paper about the population status but the British Birds article cited a paper from 2013 which suggested longer was needed to really pronounce on the 'self-sustaining' point.
Having understood that the VCF have a vested interest in the subject, it makes me feel less confident that they would have a dispassionate view. It reads like an advert for their project, not like a considered assessment. What is quite likely to be honest is that they are right and the population is self-sustaining, but they are calling it much sooner than more cautious scientists sat in the background.
If you think about it, the BOURC would probably love to accept Lammergeier; I expect they wanted to accept the 2016 bird, because in a simple sense they are both 'wild' and obviously it is captivating and exciting and all that. I think they probably feel duty-bound to wait for a while in case something else comes up to make it look a premature decision.
I had to smile at your last point by the way, because if the BOU heads are where you say they are, then slapping them in the face doesn't sound pleasant or easy.
Rob Creek said
Sun Aug 9 8:15 AM, 2020
Hi Si, no I won?t be doing any listing, it was purely out of interest for others that do, and the quality of the bird itself.
Did you read the report published 21.07.20 by Hans Pohlmann, Vice President of the VCF (Vulture Conservation Foundation)? Its not that long, and the data they collected and based their findings on makes for a cracking read, easily found with a quick search.
Presumably you already know the main facts of this bird... same bird observed in Belgium and if Im not mistaken the western edge of Germany just before that, but seemingly vanished over Belgium and reappeared over the West Midlands. Despite their size, being Europe?s largest Bird of Prey (or 1 of at least), Lammergeiers can disappear and suddenly be seen huge distances away as the VCF point out. They reckon it?s a female due to vast experience in the hand, and in my opinion who else but the VCF would be in a better position to attempt to sex a species they are intensely studying, a species where little, if any, sexual dimorphism occurs?
It is the immature birds that have the tendency to roam, as this one has done to Belgium, then to the UK, and since its not been recognised as, nor publicised as - an escape, then you would reasonably assume it?s origin is from an existing wild population, Bearing no ring, sat-tag, or identification bleaching probably (as experts say) means its from a wild nest, probably Alpine. Releases there started in 1986 and are now producing 3rd /probably 4th generation birds. A 2009 VCF study proved the Alpine population to be self-sustaining since 2006, so the release structure was changed to focus on rebuilding the network of meta populations. This has worked remarkably well with Lammergeiers partly due to their Philopatric nature (breeding close to where they fledged - within 20km) and the more recent data clearly states that the ENTIRE European population has now been proven to be self-sustaining. Using this fact I suspect she will leave the UK when she?s fully moulted and ready to do so, and hopefully will be seen in or near her fledging range and identied more than likely by her tail.
The tail as you mentioned, is damaged, (not moulting as some first thought) and is thought to be from constant harassment by other birds (mainly Ravens) on her travels. She does look a little TATTY due to her moult, and quite likely to be prone to snagging their feathers on sharp edges on rocks and carcass bones, but seems to be improving somewhat looking at various images. Larger flying birds can take 2-3 years to complete their moult as they do it in stages, they simply cant tolerate too many gaps in their wings, and also take into account that longer feathers take longer to replace too!
So heres a thought for you...
A 2nd CY Lammergeier that experts believe is from a wild nest and from a self-sustaining population, shes managed to travel across the continent then a decent stretch of water to the UK and seems to be doing just fine finding plenty of carcasses, manages to find decent roosting locations, so go and see this bird Simon, and tick it, shes a stunner!!! tail or not!!! and the powers that be need to get their heads from up their backsides and do the right thing with the facts that are clearly slapping them in their faces.
dave broome said
Sat Aug 8 11:01 PM, 2020
Ian McKerchar wrote:
The most recent sighting this early afternoon places the Bearded Carcass Gobbler approximately 0.84 miles from the GM county boundary just east of Chew Reservoir.
I saw it this afternoon north of Valehouse Reservoir, it was just about the same distance south of the GM/Oldham boundary. It had just flown north from over the reservoirs and then (according to subsequent reports) quickly headed southwards towards Howden Reservoir, so didnt appear to continue in to GM airspace on this occasion...
Ian Yeomans said
Sat Aug 8 10:11 PM, 2020
They have a route this bird took, originating in continental Europe, dated and verified by body and wing markings. If they can secure an authentic feather, apparently they can identify a nest region. European experts from reintroduction teams postulate that it is from a wild nest as it bears none of the tracing mechanisms that reintroduced birds carry. That doesnt mean it isnt a chick reared by reintroduced birds, though I cannot believe that isnt an acceptable naturally reared bird.
Simon Gough said
Sat Aug 8 9:41 PM, 2020
Hi Sid,
You could easily flip that argument, we've all met that person who says 'well, it could have been wild, it could have come from anywhere' because they want to tick an obvious escape they happen to have seen.
My personal stance with this bird is that it looks a bit scruffy with half its tail gone, so I intend to wait for a better looking one to drop in, hopefully a nice adult.
sid ashton said
Sat Aug 8 7:01 PM, 2020
Simon Gough wrote:
You'll be doing a GM list at this rate Rob!
Mind you, are you allowed to tick this bird? I'm sure I read somewhere it might not be wild...
Simon was this report you read written by someone who had seen the bird?
I have noticed that quite often the authors of such reports, doubting the provenance of a rare species, are birders who haven't actually seen the bird but perhaps wish they had
Simon Gough said
Fri Aug 7 11:26 PM, 2020
You'll be doing a GM list at this rate Rob!
Mind you, are you allowed to tick this bird? I'm sure I read somewhere it might not be wild...
Rob Creek said
Fri Aug 7 10:53 PM, 2020
Ian McKerchar wrote:
The most recent sighting this early afternoon places the Bearded Carcass Gobbler approximately 0.84 miles from the GM county boundary just east of Chew Reservoir.
...thinking about what you said Ian, the Lammergeier surely couldnt have been that far from the border when I was there on Monday too!
The circle is the lay-by on the A6024 where we viewed the bird from. The rectangle is the rough area the bird was flying. The arrow is the flight direction, West. The red line is the GM boundary.
She was drifting West being harassed by Ravens, but just how far West whilst out of sight is purely speculative as she could well have doubled back below a hill apex the minute we lost sight of her, so suppose well never know.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Friday 7th of August 2020 10:54:12 PM
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Friday 7th of August 2020 10:55:31 PM
Seen today 10.35 am from A6024 Woodhead, circling high then in W direction toward Laddow Rocks.
One birder advised it has been witnessed to collect bones and drop then as per adult behaviour. Yet a published paper advises Immatures learn this process over several years?
Richard Thew said
Thu Aug 6 12:55 PM, 2020
Ian McKerchar wrote:
The most recent sighting this early afternoon places the Bearded Carcass Gobbler approximately 0.84 miles from the GM county boundary just east of Chew Reservoir.
It would be nice if this countryside vacuum cleaner can drift over my local patch!!!!
Ian McKerchar said
Thu Aug 6 12:40 PM, 2020
The most recent sighting this early afternoon places the Bearded Carcass Gobbler approximately 0.84 miles from the GM county boundary just east of Chew Reservoir.
Roger Baker 3 said
Wed Aug 5 4:01 PM, 2020
pete berry wrote:
More importantly than it's sex is the fact that it is now within a few miles of the county border,only needs to drift a few miles north and it'll be in the county!!!
Even more importantly than that Pete is, if that does happen, it will be in my back yard.
I'll have to chat Dave Walsh up into disemboweling a couple of sheep and pegging 'em out ont' top of Brushes ..... we have been known to do dafter things !
Roger.
pete berry said
Wed Aug 5 1:24 PM, 2020
More importantly than it's sex is the fact that it is now within a few miles of the county border,only needs to drift a few miles north and it'll be in the county!!!
Mike Crawley said
Fri Jul 24 12:08 PM, 2020
Dont know how many on here are members of Bird Forum but theres a long thread on there with some interesting insights
Bit more info regarding the feathers emerging. 2x Photos showing the same flight pose with a 24 hours time lapse appear to show feather loss of the Right P2 in the later image and both photos (and others) show apparent new growth of the Left P2. On looking at my own photos from a couple of weeks ago the left P2 was still there, and the new images do suggest that a new darker coloured feather is well on its way.
I know the larger the bird and the larger the feather, or correctly speaking the longer the feather, then the longer the moult time, possibly a few years for a full moult of a bird of this size. But its done in stages as huge birds of this nature cant tolerate the loss of too many feathers at once needing optimum feather presence for their use of thermals.
Also I read that Lammergeiers are quite Philopatric (returning to their birth area - sometimes to within 20km) but dont become active breeders until around 6-7 years old. Its a long shot but would this give hope to us all and speculate that this bird is going to hang around for a few years until SHE has fully moulted and doesnt feel the need to breed just yet? Naaa surely not!
What it does give hope for though are those trying to find the feathers for the determination of its geographical origin. Any thoughts on the tail anyone...that has to be damage as those feathers wouldve surely grown back by now?
Theres also speculation that some photos show shotgun pellet damage to the primaries but I have to say that anyone in possession of a gun that tried to shoot this 747-sized bird and missed, seems like a dangerous proposition and shouldnt have a gun in the first place! Looking at the images I dont think its gunshot damage but simply working on whats been reported and the birds own nature it is more likely to be one of a few things...
1. Accidental damage from flapping and stretching against the rocks at the roost site 2. Accidental damage from sharp edges of carcass bones whilst feeding 3. Accidental damage from actively rubbing themselves against rocks, earth, carcasses etc 4. Other birds causing the damage attacking it whilst in flight
Any thoughts?
Rob Creek said
Fri Jul 24 1:35 AM, 2020
I thought I read somewhere that the sexing of Vultures of any species was impossible as the male and female arent sexually dimorphic. Lammergeiers must be the exception, showing the subtle differences listed below on Ians attachment, but I cant help but think that only having one bird to use for features and base an opinion as to the sex of that bird would surely have to be done with caution (as stated) as you are bound to get an overlap in features somewhere, or would you not?
Otherwise, to use one feature as an example...it suggests that female Lammergeiers have longer heavier bills than males, but unless you had one of each to compare, how would you know if the bird you were watching had a bill long enough or heavy enough to be that of a female? Or could it be a male with a longer heavier bill than a lot of other males, if you see my point?
As for the feather, I touched on this last week on Ladybower thread. But the other day I saw a photo on Twitter, I think it was by Indy K Greene. A feather was indeed collected, put in a sealed bag, and the photo posted up. Unfortunately the feather was quite clearly that of a Kestrels tail, ouch!
If the bird continues to stay for a while, and lets face it its not showing any sign of departing just yet and theres plenty of carcasses to feed on, then retrieval of a feather or even a faecal sample would have to be done where it was last seen to be feeding or at least check if either sample was available for collecting, and not from the roost site to avoid disturbance!
I certainly wasn't. In fact I sent him a tweet telling him he should slap the wrist of whoever prepared the map. It wasn't malicious at all in any case!
Mike, I don't believe that Andy was making unpleasant comments about Iolo, the mistake was on the map, presumably prepared by the BBC backroom staff.
-- Edited by Mike Berry on Saturday 31st of October 2020 07:02:18 PM
Sid,
Yes he did, but with typical BBC Southern bias, they marked the place it was seen in the Peak District with the name 'Crowdon'.
It looks like Iolo Williams is going to talk about "our" Vulture on Autumnwatch this evening.
Then flew back out again at 2pm..the suspense is killing me!
And then u-turned and flew back again 5 minutes later at just after 13.00!!!
On the vulture's nickname, I received the following response today from the Derbyshire Wildlife Trust:-
Many Vultures have received names across Europe through the reintroduction projects coordinated by Vulture Conservation Foundation. Naming birds connects local communities to birds and increases awareness about the bird and helps to keep the bird safe. This is why we named the Bearded Vulture that spent a long time in the Peak District this year. We asked people on social media for names, and also amongst colleagues at Derbyshire Wildlife Trust and other organizations for our visiting Bearded Vulture. The name Vigo came up short, memorable and people liked it so Vigo won out. At the time it wasnt clear if the bird was from the Alps or the Pyrenees so Spanish names were put forward and Vigo won out. We now know that Vigo is actually from the French Alps but the name is still being used and is being used by the Vulture Conservation Foundation , based in Europe, as well.
I see the bird referred to as Vigo, a Spanish city - anyone know how it got this nickname?
The origin of the bird is from the French Alps and hatched last year in a wild nest.
Oh well, at least shes on the move in the right direction today as it seems she was reported near the RSPB headquarters in Bedfordshire at 1pm then later over London at 3pm.
On the continent now perhaps?
I was watching a programme on Sky Nature the other night under the heading 'Rewilding', and the lammergeier was one of the featured animals. It focused on a reintroduction scheme in Andalucia, where great efforts are being made to get them back into the landscape. The point I'm coming to is that it was stated that 36 (might have been 38) birds had been incubated and raised by naturalists before being released into the wild, but that 'almost half' that number had then died from being poisoned. That's the trouble Rob: putting 'our' bird back where it belongs does not necessarily equate to it then being safer. Wherever raptors are in the World, they are up against the odds.
People are concerned she isnt eating and is looking tatty, but she has been observed many times eating carcass bones since arriving in the UK including since she left the NW, and in my opinion she looks better week on week from a physical appearance and plumage moult point of view.
No probs there then?
Photos emerged in the last couple of days of the Lammergeier in the road (one of the B-roads) bringing traffic to a stop and raising new concerns about whether it is now relying on roadkill, some of which are Rodents with the potential to contain rodenticides. I hope people are not throwing butchers bones in the road for it simply to get close views, if so then I am concerned as that would be irresponsible.
There are now calls for it to be trapped and transported back to its origins, easier said than done as the DNA results from feather collection a few days ago arent back yet. This wasnt possible when it was up here as the roost site was virtually inaccessible to do that.
Any thoughts as to whether she is still doing a capable job of looking after herself and has simply picked the wrong county with little, if any, typical Lammergeier terrain? Or are the calls for her capture justified?
Personally I say leave her be, shes finding food and appears to be doing well, and one last thought... could the capture and release interfere with the Lammergeiers natural Philopatric behave to return close to the original birthplace?
- Oxfordshire early week
- then back to Cutthroat Bridge on Thursday
- Norfolk at weekend
Without sounding disrespectful, is the Cutthroat Bridge sighting an unfortunate misidentification?
Seen drifting over Thornton Reservoir just NE of Leicester this afternoon, a close up photo was taken so no question it was the Lammergeier (on Twitter).
On its way home!! 'Our' bird seen over Leicestershire today moving SE.
I always remember this poor Griffon Vulture I photographed in Tarifa ( Spain) a few years ago.. and it was actually flying around with the others, showing no signs of any disability..Appart from its appearance! It just goes to show the extreme feather loss that these birds can cope with.
..this bird was showing signs of either extreme nutritional deficiencies or it had had a serious accident / survived a shotgun blast.. 
Looks in fine fettle, with a full complement of emerging tail feathers. Must get back to see her, before she moves on.
Having seen the worrying state the bird was in its first few days it appeared in the UK .. I took these last Saturday and it looks so much more healthier now the tail feathers have grown back. Just the overall condition of the bird looks healthier ..it also seems to be a lot more agile in the air.
-- Edited by Martin Loftus on Friday 4th of September 2020 09:29:50 PM
-- Edited by Martin Loftus on Friday 4th of September 2020 09:38:44 PM
i must emphasise that our vulture has got broken tail feathers, so once the broken tail feathers molt in the first cycle, there will still be a few gaps because of the remaining few that are broken until the 2nd molt season. (This is what I suspect you ment when you said loosing so many feathers is unnatural)
While on this subject i thought it be interesting to note at this point that the body feathers in principle go through a molt faster, in a wave from front to rear. Larger birds again usually take a little longer but the first molt cycle drastically changes their appearance from juvenile. This natural process certainly shows the speed at which they change, as each bird has to be fully quilted up ready in time for the winter season.
The information i have shows either case, the molt cycle isn't always a simple thing and can be very complex and difficult to explain, so I hope this info helps.
Thanks!
ps. Sorry Rob, when I responded to your post, it was on the quoat: "The overall plumage appears to be changing colour slightly too, or is it just me?" That was my fault for giving more info than I planned and not being clear that I was confirming that it was to be expected. My apologies.
-- Edited by Richard Thew on Wednesday 2nd of September 2020 11:07:31 PM
Hi Ian,
the moult in large flying birds with large and long feathers (I dont know about flightless birds?) can take years as previously said, they do it in stages as the bird cant tolerate a high number of feather loss. It renders the bird unable to fly and eventually will starve, hence why they do it so theres enough feathers to keep it airborne.
Whether the loss of tail feathers has had an impact on its time length of temporary residence I wouldnt know.
Im not sure if it was the VCF but I read a few weeks ago that the loss of tail feathers could be due to constant attacks from other birds.
As for the energy loss, the consumption of bone marrow will probably make up that loss as it is super rich in energy, fats, protein, vitamins etc.
And yes youre right, despite the feather loss, it does look very much assured in flight. Almost effortless in soaring and manoeuvrability.
Has the VCF commented on the moult / damage to the tail?
Is it typical for this amount of loss to occur in moult? At this age?
Though it still looks assured in flight, it must be compensating for this loss, which may affect energy reserves?
-Large bird, long flight feathers, stage moult, etc.
My point was that I suspect people werent sure (including myself) if the tail was going to grow back incase there was damage to the feather follicles preventing new growth. Its only just started to show new growth recently.
I was merely noting a change in plumage, I certainly wasnt suggesting that it would look like an adult anytime soon, as I know it wont!
Cheers
The information I have regarding molting in birds of prey says: The juvenile quills (flight feathers) some will remain into the second and even third years. The larger the bird, the longer the cycle of molt and larger the time period required. Small birds complete their molt within one season. Eagle sized birds will take a few years. So yes Rob, its quite likely the bearded vulture may start to change colour in its first year of molt, but it will not look like an adult until a few years from now.
Incidentally, the illustrations of the Bearded vulture in my references only has a few illustrations, the oldest immature illustration is in its 3rd year. This is simply because in its 4th year, it will look like an adult, with subtle differences (hence, the 5 years at the start of this post).
Thanks.
-- Edited by Richard Thew on Tuesday 1st of September 2020 12:39:42 PM
The birds overall plumage appears to be changing colour slightly too, or is it just me??
The comment was meant colloquially Ian, tongue in cheek if you like! Certainly not meant to be contemptuous. I can only imagine the processes involved, but my point was meant more in the way of the changing world and the fact that different species of birds turn up in increasingly different places due to a whole host of reasons ie.climate change, changing weather patterns (possibly affecting migration sometimes), reintroductions, changing bird habits, habitat loss forcing movement of the species, etc etc, things move forward and in some cases, as in reintroductions, back to where it should be in my view, before mankind wiped out large proportions of some of these species from many areas. Does the BOURC change with the times and take into account all these different factors or are they old school and still work to a set of parameters that they were working to say 20 years ago for instance?
I?m asking that because I don?t know. Quick example... either last year or 2018, Ruddy Shelducks had a bit of an influx if I remember correctly and were reported at quite a few places. Many Duck species are considered plastic or escapes, So in that particular circumstance were all those Ruddy Shels deemed to be escapes? A question I heard a few times whilst out and about.
I?m certainly no expert in any species of bird Ian, nor do I claim to be. As well as books, TV documentaries, and actually studying the bird species itself, the internet is a valuable resource for the vast majority of people, and those web pages or articles / papers / pieces... are there to be read, including your own Ian (some of which I?ve read).
I categorically don?t consider or make myself out to be, a Lammergeier expert just because I?ve read a few articles online, but it all adds to the knowledge you pick up over time.
I think the general feeling judging by the last few comments is that the VCF is not the world leading expert body in Vultures that some might consider them to be, a matter of opinion maybe??? When you take into account they?ve only been doing the Lammergeier reintroductions for a minimum of 34 years, a successful 34 years at that, then I?m not sure who else would be?
Point being, the BOURC wouldn?t be just accepting the word of others, but would be using the vast experience and extensive knowledge of probably the group in prime position to make a reasonable assumption of origin.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Monday 10th of August 2020 06:40:26 AM
Is such an offensive comment (in so many ways) really called for?
Are you aware of the workings of the BOURC, their purpose and aims or even their entirely thorough process when considering firsts for Britain, which I can tell you for sure, amounts to more than googling a few web pages and following some folk on social media! Your frankly contemptuous comment would indicate clearly not and that they should seemingly accept such sightings on face value alone or perhaps at the word of others and without more thorough investigation. I appreciate the Internet makes us all ‘experts’ but sometimes, just sometimes, things are a little more considered than we might think, and for good reason.
Hi Simon, the present bird is, as you probably know only the second UK record so you may have quite a wait for "the better looking one to drop in". All the best with it.
The lockdown has been the main factor for my birding this year, the Peak District is pretty hard to get to without wheels. I've been telling myself that I'm not interested in stuff that I know will be a challenge logistically!
I found an article on the RBA website by Hans Pohlmann, that I guess is the one you mean? It was interesting but seemed more focussed on the dispersal behaviour and the significance of this on the overall gene pool. It mentions the 2009 paper about the population status but the British Birds article cited a paper from 2013 which suggested longer was needed to really pronounce on the 'self-sustaining' point.
Having understood that the VCF have a vested interest in the subject, it makes me feel less confident that they would have a dispassionate view. It reads like an advert for their project, not like a considered assessment. What is quite likely to be honest is that they are right and the population is self-sustaining, but they are calling it much sooner than more cautious scientists sat in the background.
If you think about it, the BOURC would probably love to accept Lammergeier; I expect they wanted to accept the 2016 bird, because in a simple sense they are both 'wild' and obviously it is captivating and exciting and all that. I think they probably feel duty-bound to wait for a while in case something else comes up to make it look a premature decision.
I had to smile at your last point by the way, because if the BOU heads are where you say they are, then slapping them in the face doesn't sound pleasant or easy.
no I won?t be doing any listing, it was purely out of interest for others that do, and the quality of the bird itself.
Did you read the report published 21.07.20 by Hans Pohlmann, Vice President of the VCF (Vulture Conservation Foundation)? Its not that long, and the data they collected and based their findings on makes for a cracking read, easily found with a quick search.
Presumably you already know the main facts of this bird... same bird observed in Belgium and if Im not mistaken the western edge of Germany just before that, but seemingly vanished over Belgium and reappeared over the West Midlands.
Despite their size, being Europe?s largest Bird of Prey (or 1 of at least), Lammergeiers can disappear and suddenly be seen huge distances away as the VCF point out.
They reckon it?s a female due to vast experience in the hand, and in my opinion who else but the VCF would be in a better position to attempt to sex a species they are intensely studying, a species where little, if any, sexual dimorphism occurs?
It is the immature birds that have the tendency to roam, as this one has done to Belgium, then to the UK, and since its not been recognised as, nor publicised as - an escape, then you would reasonably assume it?s origin is from an existing wild population, Bearing no ring, sat-tag, or identification bleaching probably (as experts say) means its from a wild nest, probably Alpine.
Releases there started in 1986 and are now producing 3rd /probably 4th generation birds. A 2009 VCF study proved the Alpine population to be self-sustaining since 2006, so the release structure was changed to focus on rebuilding the network of meta populations.
This has worked remarkably well with Lammergeiers partly due to their Philopatric nature (breeding close to where they fledged - within 20km) and the more recent data clearly states that the ENTIRE European population has now been proven to be self-sustaining. Using this fact I suspect she will leave the UK when she?s fully moulted and ready to do so, and hopefully will be seen in or near her fledging range and identied more than likely by her tail.
The tail as you mentioned, is damaged, (not moulting as some first thought) and is thought to be from constant harassment by other birds (mainly Ravens) on her travels. She does look a little TATTY due to her moult, and quite likely to be prone to snagging their feathers on sharp edges on rocks and carcass bones, but seems to be improving somewhat looking at various images. Larger flying birds can take 2-3 years to complete their moult as they do it in stages, they simply cant tolerate too many gaps in their wings, and also take into account that longer feathers take longer to replace too!
So heres a thought for you...
A 2nd CY Lammergeier that experts believe is from a wild nest and from a self-sustaining population, shes managed to travel across the continent then a decent stretch of water to the UK and seems to be doing just fine finding plenty of carcasses, manages to find decent roosting locations, so go and see this bird Simon, and tick it, shes a stunner!!! tail or not!!! and the powers that be need to get their heads from up their backsides and do the right thing with the facts that are clearly slapping them in their faces.
I saw it this afternoon north of Valehouse Reservoir, it was just about the same distance south of the GM/Oldham boundary. It had just flown north from over the reservoirs and then (according to subsequent reports) quickly headed southwards towards Howden Reservoir, so didnt appear to continue in to GM airspace on this occasion...
You could easily flip that argument, we've all met that person who says 'well, it could have been wild, it could have come from anywhere' because they want to tick an obvious escape they happen to have seen.
My personal stance with this bird is that it looks a bit scruffy with half its tail gone, so I intend to wait for a better looking one to drop in, hopefully a nice adult.
Simon was this report you read written by someone who had seen the bird?
I have noticed that quite often the authors of such reports, doubting the provenance of a rare species, are birders who haven't actually seen the bird but perhaps wish they had
Mind you, are you allowed to tick this bird? I'm sure I read somewhere it might not be wild...
...thinking about what you said Ian, the Lammergeier surely couldnt have been that far from the border when I was there on Monday too!
The circle is the lay-by on the A6024 where we viewed the bird from.
The rectangle is the rough area the bird was flying.
The arrow is the flight direction, West.
The red line is the GM boundary.
She was drifting West being harassed by Ravens, but just how far West whilst out of sight is purely speculative as she could well have doubled back below a hill apex the minute we lost sight of her, so suppose well never know.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Friday 7th of August 2020 10:54:12 PM
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Friday 7th of August 2020 10:55:31 PM
One birder advised it has been witnessed to collect bones and drop then as per adult behaviour. Yet a published paper advises Immatures learn this process over several years?
It would be nice if this countryside vacuum cleaner can drift over my local patch!!!!
The most recent sighting this early afternoon places the Bearded Carcass Gobbler approximately 0.84 miles from the GM county boundary just east of Chew Reservoir.
Even more importantly than that Pete is, if that does happen, it will be in my back yard.
I'll have to chat Dave Walsh up into disemboweling a couple of sheep and pegging 'em out ont' top of Brushes ..... we have been known to do dafter things !
Roger.
www.birdforum.net/showthread.php
2x Photos showing the same flight pose with a 24 hours time lapse appear to show feather loss of the Right P2 in the later image and both photos (and others) show apparent new growth of the Left P2.
On looking at my own photos from a couple of weeks ago the left P2 was still there, and the new images do suggest that a new darker coloured feather is well on its way.
I know the larger the bird and the larger the feather, or correctly speaking the longer the feather, then the longer the moult time, possibly a few years for a full moult of a bird of this size. But its done in stages as huge birds of this nature cant tolerate the loss of too many feathers at once needing optimum feather presence for their use of thermals.
Also I read that Lammergeiers are quite Philopatric (returning to their birth area - sometimes to within 20km) but dont become active breeders until around 6-7 years old. Its a long shot but would this give hope to us all and speculate that this bird is going to hang around for a few years until SHE has fully moulted and doesnt feel the need to breed just yet? Naaa surely not!
What it does give hope for though are those trying to find the feathers for the determination of its geographical origin.
Any thoughts on the tail anyone...that has to be damage as those feathers wouldve surely grown back by now?
Theres also speculation that some photos show shotgun pellet damage to the primaries but I have to say that anyone in possession of a gun that tried to shoot this 747-sized bird and missed, seems like a dangerous proposition and shouldnt have a gun in the first place!
Looking at the images I dont think its gunshot damage but simply working on whats been reported and the birds own nature it is more likely to be one of a few things...
1. Accidental damage from flapping and stretching against the rocks at the roost site
2. Accidental damage from sharp edges of carcass bones whilst feeding
3. Accidental damage from actively rubbing themselves against rocks, earth, carcasses etc
4. Other birds causing the damage attacking it whilst in flight
Any thoughts?
Lammergeiers must be the exception, showing the subtle differences listed below on Ians attachment, but I cant help but think that only having one bird to use for features and base an opinion as to the sex of that bird would surely have to be done with caution (as stated) as you are bound to get an overlap in features somewhere, or would you not?
Otherwise, to use one feature as an example...it suggests that female Lammergeiers have longer heavier bills than males, but unless you had one of each to compare, how would you know if the bird you were watching had a bill long enough or heavy enough to be that of a female? Or could it be a male with a longer heavier bill than a lot of other males, if you see my point?
As for the feather, I touched on this last week on Ladybower thread. But the other day I saw a photo on Twitter, I think it was by Indy K Greene. A feather was indeed collected, put in a sealed bag, and the photo posted up. Unfortunately the feather was quite clearly that of a Kestrels tail, ouch!
If the bird continues to stay for a while, and lets face it its not showing any sign of departing just yet and theres plenty of carcasses to feed on, then retrieval of a feather or even a faecal sample would have to be done where it was last seen to be feeding or at least check if either sample was available for collecting, and not from the roost site to avoid disturbance!