colin davies wrote:To sum up, following discussions with the county recorder and others, it looks like it's going to be submitted as Iberian chiffchaff. There was similar situation with a bird in Cheshire in 2005, doubt was cast upon its credentials but then got accepted by the BBRC.
Colin
As one of the co-submitters of the Cheshire bird, there was never any doubt from any observers when it was first found. It's song was pure Iberian & it called frequently too, and was pure Iberian again. Later in its stay it threw a few mimic calls of collybita into its repertoir and this delayed its acceptance. But recordings and sonagrams from when it was first found, plus evidence from Marc Salomon, who has written definitive papers on Iberian Chiffchaffs and their eventual mimicry of birds in the overlap zone near the France/Spain border, led to it being accepted. The Portland Iberian did the same, sang pure Iberian when first found and then added mimicry to its song later in its stay. A few dissenting voices questioned its ID when those observers only saw it late on during its stay, but we were always confident that it would get accepted and had support from 'high up' for its credentials.
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Tuesday 19th of April 2016 10:18:45 PM
Simon Gough said
Tue Apr 19 11:06 AM, 2016
Hi Colin,
Thanks for highlighting the comments on your blog. I read your original post with the sound files but hadn't seen the comments. I agree with the guys that it seems harsh for that bird to have been disregarded just because a 'better' one came along. After Rob and I had been up there I put the Penwortham bird on my 'not sure' list, because you could tell that it would need to be scrutinized by the Rarity Committees. The phases of the song we heard were exactly right though, and I liked your line that it might be an "atypical Iberian" if it was anything. The only other bit of evidence I thought could be significant was that it sang back to the Iberian recording. We actually briefly met the finder Graham too. I hope he gets a bit of credit whatever happens. He said he was over there looking for Ring Ouzels!
I put the Telford bird on my 'definite' list as an Iberian because the song was so spot on and photos showed good plumage characters, notably the supercilium. It still needs to get through the Committees itself though. In the best case scenario I'll end up having seen 2 Iberians. Whatever does happen, listening and watching them has been really interesting. The Telford bird was shaking as it sang, like the Wood Warbler I saw last year. I've never noticed a Common Chiffchaff do that, I will be looking harder at them now though.
colin davies said
Tue Apr 19 9:47 AM, 2016
The original finder of the Lancashire bird, Graham Jones, has put a comment on my blog giving an update of the latest thinking regarding this bird. You can read it here.
To sum up, following discussions with the county recorder and others, it looks like it's going to be submitted as Iberian chiffchaff. There was similar situation with a bird in Cheshire in 2005, doubt was cast upon its credentials but then got accepted by the BBRC.
John haven't seen a map link but it's dead easy to find from the Donnington Asda store, post code TF2 7RX. Drive down Granville Road for about half a mile, there are two kissing gates on the right hand side - the bird was in the wood just behind. Enter the wood from the second gate near the pond opposite the small car park - hope that helps.
JOHN TYMON said
Fri Apr 15 7:04 AM, 2016
Doc Brewster wrote:
Sorry to have missed you two Sid! I did my patch this morning and after finding the shortest route to Telford from me was just over 40 miles I reckoned that after publicising this bird I had better go and see it! Had excellent scoped views as the bird appeared and disappeared about 7 times during my stay. Initially 3 folk there, then 2 then just me for a good half hour with the bird showing almost continuously and singing its head off. Not having heard the Preston bird only clips on the internet, but having heard & seen this one in the flesh you did right to get this one under your belts guys, sounds the real deal Well done
Is there a map link to where the Telford bird is seen,when I look it seems like an industrial area?can someone give some idea where it is ?
Doc Brewster said
Thu Apr 14 9:48 PM, 2016
Sorry to have missed you two Sid! I did my patch this morning and after finding the shortest route to Telford from me was just over 40 miles I reckoned that after publicising this bird I had better go and see it! Had excellent scoped views as the bird appeared and disappeared about 7 times during my stay. Initially 3 folk there, then 2 then just me for a good half hour with the bird showing almost continuously and singing its head off. Not having heard the Preston bird only clips on the internet, but having heard & seen this one in the flesh you did right to get this one under your belts guys, sounds the real deal Well done
sid ashton said
Thu Apr 14 12:10 PM, 2016
Doc Brewster wrote:
Also, if folk are really keen on getting it on their lists then there is one that looks very very good for ibericus in Shropshire, which is not too far to go to see this species. It is in Telford at SJ716123 and has been there several days. I have seen 2 in the UK and in fact was co-submitter of the Dibbinsdale bird several years ago, so know what Phil Woollen & I had to go through to get it accepted. Phil did a sterling job contacting experts on the species in Spain. We got the record accepted after a couple of submissions including sonagrams, but were 100% confident that it was one right from the outset. It was a dead ringer song-wise for the Shropshire bird.
The Telford bird IS still there today so if folk need it, now's your chance
John Barber and I watched the bird from just after 07.00 this morning until about 09.00. It sang well for us and although the light conditions weren't of the best we were able to pick up the distinguishing features which were not that dissimilar to the Preston bird. Not easy these Iberian Chiffchaffs !!!!!
Doc Brewster said
Wed Apr 13 2:22 PM, 2016
Also, if folk are really keen on getting it on their lists then there is one that looks very very good for ibericus in Shropshire, which is not too far to go to see this species. It is in Telford at SJ716123 and has been there several days. I have seen 2 in the UK and in fact was co-submitter of the Dibbinsdale bird several years ago, so know what Phil Woollen & I had to go through to get it accepted. Phil did a sterling job contacting experts on the species in Spain. We got the record accepted after a couple of submissions including sonagrams, but were 100% confident that it was one right from the outset. It was a dead ringer song-wise for the Shropshire bird.
The Telford bird IS still there today so if folk need it, now's your chance
Simon Gough said
Wed Apr 13 1:40 PM, 2016
Thanks for the explanations chaps. I am intrigued as I said, because it's the first time I've really had a personal stake in one of these sightings. I have subscribed to British Birds magazine this year, and discovering the level of analysis being applied to sightings has been quite something. The most recent issue was discussing the reinstatement of a subspecies to the British List based on a sighting from 1981. So as you guys say, be prepared for a state of ambiguity to exist!
Interesting article Doc. I wasn't aware of a 'conflict song' as such. Of note, the Penwortham bird sang its Iberian style song back when somebody played it a recording, rather than a song that resembled Common Chiffchaff. But I get your point that hybrids are a possibility and a positive ID cannot necessarily be expected.
-- Edited by Simon Gough on Wednesday 13th of April 2016 01:46:50 PM
Craig Higson said
Wed Apr 13 12:32 PM, 2016
I think the point is Simon, that it doesn't have to be identified as either, it just cant be confirmed as either, if you get my meaning. You might find that the committees verdict is 'not proven' which doesn't mean it wasn't one. There will always be birds that we cant ID, or at least proved the ID of.
Doc Brewster said
Wed Apr 13 11:59 AM, 2016
A link in my previous post has interesting points, which may not need it being proved as a collybita, Simon, to stop it being accepted as a true ibericus, see
This one is a new situation for me, the first time I have seen a bird with a disputed ID that is potentially a rarity. Obviously like Rob I'm keen to get it on my list, but as soon as the reporting services changed their description on Saturday to reflect doubt we knew we were going to have to wait for the Lancashire and British Rarity Committees. What has certainly been frustrating is that Birdguides, for instance, didn't really provide a reason for changing their description of the bird and I haven't been able to find any discussion online about it. Possibly the weekly round-up articles will shed some light.
The other big point I have taken away is that the observations made by Mike Passant and Colin Davies show their experience and knowledge and make me realize I have a lot to learn. Watching 'the' bird I really didn't see significant differences between it and the other 2 or 3 Chiffchaffs present. They all looked much the same to me, which means I need to get better at looking really. I did think the supercilium looked very distinct at the time, but I forgot to look at the legs. To be fair, the song was so strong that I didn't think there was much more to consider. I heard the bird call both ways though, it definitely called in a Common Chiffchaff type way at times. I think that might be explained by mimicry though, ironically. As Colin put in his blog though, if this isn't an Iberian, it is a very strange Common. If the burden of proof was on demonstrating it was the common species, what would the case for the prosecution be?
If I had my time again I would be more studious about what to look for in the first place. I also need to work on my understanding of the plumage of common Chiffchaff, I have been ID'ing them easily enough but not really looking hard. It is a weird one though, because I like to try and keep things simple and this was ostensibly cut and dried, a singing male at the right time of year in the right habitat. Hence the curiosity about the ID being in doubt. I look forward to the verdicts of the Rarity Committees!
Doc Brewster said
Wed Apr 13 9:42 AM, 2016
Craig is right Rob. It's a pretty common phenomenon. Google (other search engines are available!) 'Mixed Singers' for instance & get articles such as
http://deanar.org.uk/general/articles/wwmixedsong.htm and http://www.digitalwildlife.co.uk/artical/sandychiff.htm
when there is enough element of doubt the rarities committees err on the side of caution and do not assign the birds to Phylloscopus ibericus
Craig Higson said
Tue Apr 12 10:26 PM, 2016
Hi Rob. I haven't seen it, in fact I haven't seen Iberian Chiffchaff in the UK so maybe I shouldn't even comment. However, I have seen and heard numerous 'dodgy' chiffchaffs over the years. These have probably been from other subspecies, or maybe they were just mimicking, or maybe they were just different. One at Pennington a few years ago sent my heart racing when I first heard it as it was unlike anything I'd ever heard, but when I saw it, it was just a chiffchaff. Ive seen silvery grey chiffchaffs that were just chiffchaffs and although the song is supposedly good for an ID, I believe even that can be confused with P collibita abietinus. I don't even know if Iberian Chiffchaffs can be reliably determined from ' in the hand features' if it were to be caught, or if a sonogram would nail it, or maybe even DNA analysis is the answer. I guess its a case of no-one being able to rule out other species rather than missing any key features - if you see what I mean. I have to admit this species feels a bit like the Thayers Gull of Phylloscopus Warblers.
Rob Creek said
Tue Apr 12 5:44 PM, 2016
With the recent Iberian Chiffchaff or 'atypical' Chiffchaff up at Penwortham still not been identified as one or the other yet, I thought I'd ask, simply coz I don't know, why is it so controversial with this particular one that nobody has stuck their neck out to call it?
Myself and Simon Gough were there on Sunday morning and aswell as a few features that are mentioned in the guides that seemed to fit on this bird, the most obvious characteristic was its song, which again was almost note perfect to the Aves Vox recording and other various websites that have recordings of Iberian Chiffchaff. Might sound daft but if this is just a Chiffchaff, why does it sing like an Iberian one, and would it have heard one before and is mimicking what it's heard? Or do some common Chiffchaffs simply sing that way?
So as was stated in the sightings thread, something's not quite right with this one, but what is it that's not quite right? What is it that's preventing it from being an Iberian Chiffchaff? It looks like one, sings like one, so does anyone know? I thought I'd ask. Cheers Rob
As one of the co-submitters of the Cheshire bird, there was never any doubt from any observers when it was first found. It's song was pure Iberian & it called frequently too, and was pure Iberian again. Later in its stay it threw a few mimic calls of collybita into its repertoir and this delayed its acceptance. But recordings and sonagrams from when it was first found, plus evidence from Marc Salomon, who has written definitive papers on Iberian Chiffchaffs and their eventual mimicry of birds in the overlap zone near the France/Spain border, led to it being accepted. The Portland Iberian did the same, sang pure Iberian when first found and then added mimicry to its song later in its stay. A few dissenting voices questioned its ID when those observers only saw it late on during its stay, but we were always confident that it would get accepted and had support from 'high up' for its credentials.
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Tuesday 19th of April 2016 10:18:45 PM
Thanks for highlighting the comments on your blog. I read your original post with the sound files but hadn't seen the comments. I agree with the guys that it seems harsh for that bird to have been disregarded just because a 'better' one came along. After Rob and I had been up there I put the Penwortham bird on my 'not sure' list, because you could tell that it would need to be scrutinized by the Rarity Committees. The phases of the song we heard were exactly right though, and I liked your line that it might be an "atypical Iberian" if it was anything. The only other bit of evidence I thought could be significant was that it sang back to the Iberian recording. We actually briefly met the finder Graham too. I hope he gets a bit of credit whatever happens. He said he was over there looking for Ring Ouzels!
I put the Telford bird on my 'definite' list as an Iberian because the song was so spot on and photos showed good plumage characters, notably the supercilium. It still needs to get through the Committees itself though. In the best case scenario I'll end up having seen 2 Iberians. Whatever does happen, listening and watching them has been really interesting. The Telford bird was shaking as it sang, like the Wood Warbler I saw last year. I've never noticed a Common Chiffchaff do that, I will be looking harder at them now though.
The original finder of the Lancashire bird, Graham Jones, has put a comment on my blog giving an update of the latest thinking regarding this bird. You can read it here.
http://birdingsthelens.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/pibericus-or-pcollybita.html
To sum up, following discussions with the county recorder and others, it looks like it's going to be submitted as Iberian chiffchaff. There was similar situation with a bird in Cheshire in 2005, doubt was cast upon its credentials but then got accepted by the BBRC.
Colin
If you haven't been yet John:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?ar=y&x=371600&y=312300&z=4
Grid Ref is SJ716123
John haven't seen a map link but it's dead easy to find from the Donnington Asda store, post code TF2 7RX. Drive down Granville Road for about half a mile, there are two kissing gates on the right hand side - the bird was in the wood just behind. Enter the wood from the second gate near the pond opposite the small car park - hope that helps.
Is there a map link to where the Telford bird is seen,when I look it seems like an industrial area?can someone give some idea where it is ?
Sorry to have missed you two Sid! I did my patch this morning and after finding the shortest route to Telford from me was just over 40 miles I reckoned that after publicising this bird I had better go and see it! Had excellent scoped views as the bird appeared and disappeared about 7 times during my stay. Initially 3 folk there, then 2 then just me for a good half hour with the bird showing almost continuously and singing its head off. Not having heard the Preston bird only clips on the internet, but having heard & seen this one in the flesh you did right to get this one under your belts guys, sounds the real deal
Well done 
John Barber and I watched the bird from just after 07.00 this morning until about 09.00. It sang well for us and although the light conditions weren't of the best we were able to pick up the distinguishing features which were not that dissimilar to the Preston bird. Not easy these Iberian Chiffchaffs !!!!!
Also, if folk are really keen on getting it on their lists then there is one that looks very very good for ibericus in Shropshire, which is not too far to go to see this species. It is in Telford at SJ716123 and has been there several days. I have seen 2 in the UK and in fact was co-submitter of the Dibbinsdale bird several years ago, so know what Phil Woollen & I had to go through to get it accepted. Phil did a sterling job contacting experts on the species in Spain. We got the record accepted after a couple of submissions including sonagrams, but were 100% confident that it was one right from the outset. It was a dead ringer song-wise for the Shropshire bird.
The Telford bird IS still there today so if folk need it, now's your chance
Interesting article Doc. I wasn't aware of a 'conflict song' as such. Of note, the Penwortham bird sang its Iberian style song back when somebody played it a recording, rather than a song that resembled Common Chiffchaff. But I get your point that hybrids are a possibility and a positive ID cannot necessarily be expected.
-- Edited by Simon Gough on Wednesday 13th of April 2016 01:46:50 PM
A link in my previous post has interesting points, which may not need it being proved as a collybita, Simon, to stop it being accepted as a true ibericus, see
http://www.digitalwildlife.co.uk/artical/sandychiff.htm
The other big point I have taken away is that the observations made by Mike Passant and Colin Davies show their experience and knowledge and make me realize I have a lot to learn. Watching 'the' bird I really didn't see significant differences between it and the other 2 or 3 Chiffchaffs present. They all looked much the same to me, which means I need to get better at looking really. I did think the supercilium looked very distinct at the time, but I forgot to look at the legs. To be fair, the song was so strong that I didn't think there was much more to consider. I heard the bird call both ways though, it definitely called in a Common Chiffchaff type way at times. I think that might be explained by mimicry though, ironically. As Colin put in his blog though, if this isn't an Iberian, it is a very strange Common. If the burden of proof was on demonstrating it was the common species, what would the case for the prosecution be?
If I had my time again I would be more studious about what to look for in the first place. I also need to work on my understanding of the plumage of common Chiffchaff, I have been ID'ing them easily enough but not really looking hard. It is a weird one though, because I like to try and keep things simple and this was ostensibly cut and dried, a singing male at the right time of year in the right habitat. Hence the curiosity about the ID being in doubt. I look forward to the verdicts of the Rarity Committees!
Craig is right Rob. It's a pretty common phenomenon. Google (other search engines are available!) 'Mixed Singers' for instance & get articles such as
http://deanar.org.uk/general/articles/wwmixedsong.htm and http://www.digitalwildlife.co.uk/artical/sandychiff.htm
when there is enough element of doubt the rarities committees err on the side of caution and do not assign the birds to Phylloscopus ibericus
Myself and Simon Gough were there on Sunday morning and aswell as a few features that are mentioned in the guides that seemed to fit on this bird, the most obvious characteristic was its song, which again was almost note perfect to the Aves Vox recording and other various websites that have recordings of Iberian Chiffchaff.
Might sound daft but if this is just a Chiffchaff, why does it sing like an Iberian one, and would it have heard one before and is mimicking what it's heard? Or do some common Chiffchaffs simply sing that way?
So as was stated in the sightings thread, something's not quite right with this one, but what is it that's not quite right? What is it that's preventing it from being an Iberian Chiffchaff?
It looks like one, sings like one, so does anyone know? I thought I'd ask.
Cheers
Rob