Good to hear Rob. Those Swift 8.5x44s are a classic birding Bino.
They've certainly done me (and my late Dad) proud Craig, and by no means by the way should my post sound as though I'm shunning Swarovski users, I might even get one when I feel like I want one. A couple of times in the past though, I've picked up on a distant bird, obviously already knowing it's there due to it being posted or reported, and when someone else has arrived with a scope and asked me if the bird was still present, I've put them onto it and they've been a bit surprised that I've located it with just bins.
My Dad had Swift bins and passed on a pair to me in the early '80s. Unfortunately they went when I got burgled. Last weekend I went birding/butterflying with my brother down in South Oxfordshire and he has my (long departed) Dad's replacement Swifts which have a zoom function (not sure if any modern bins have this) and they are housed in a lovely real leather boxcase. And modern bins certainly don't have those.
Rob Creek said
Wed Aug 26 9:48 PM, 2015
Craig Higson wrote:
Good to hear Rob. Those Swift 8.5x44s are a classic birding Bino.
They've certainly done me (and my late Dad) proud Craig, and by no means by the way should my post sound as though I'm shunning Swarovski users, I might even get one when I feel like I want one. A couple of times in the past though, I've picked up on a distant bird, obviously already knowing it's there due to it being posted or reported, and when someone else has arrived with a scope and asked me if the bird was still present, I've put them onto it and they've been a bit surprised that I've located it with just bins.
Craig Higson said
Wed Aug 26 7:45 PM, 2015
Good to hear Rob. Those Swift 8.5x44s are a classic birding Bino.
Rob Creek said
Wed Aug 26 7:23 PM, 2015
Doc Brewster wrote:
Craig Higson wrote:
Well...if your'e offering!!
At the risk of thread diversion....It also relates to another 'pet' hate I have. Binocular snobbery.
Again that does exist, but the non-European brands are so good now that it seems to be less rife than it was a few years ago. I see more Opticron out there being used 'loud & proud' and they are great optics used by great birders. I bet lots of the good birds in GM are found by folk not using the 'big 3' optics!!
Never really bothered me all that..."just because someone has better equipment they must be a better birder than you". Absolute codswallop. All it means is they've either got more money than you, or they've saved up hard earned money to buy a top brand product. They are by no means a better birder (although quite rightly could be, depending on who they are) they are simply better equipped for birding. For years I shared my Dad's Swift Audubon 8.5 x 44's, until this year when I got myself a pair of Opticron Trail-finder 10 x 42's from Doc. Dad's Swift never did me any harm, and I was never embarrassed of using them infront of a Swarovski laden crowd! You should never be embarrassed of doing what you love just because your equipment isn't as good as someone else's. I didn't even have a scope until this year, opting for an Acuter Grand-Vista 80 from Doc and very happy with it too. I will upgrade at some point, but for now, I could be surrounded by gold-plated Swarovski bins or scopes, I'll still be there with my Acuter and Opticrons.
Paul Richardson said
Wed Aug 26 8:20 AM, 2015
I'm going to come out now as one of the "loud and proud" Opticron users (as in bins) - obtained from your good self, Doc B! I use Opticron binoculars rather in the same way I am very happy to drive a Skoda - might be midrange but perfectly functional for my needs.
(On the other hand, I'm still slumming it with a Kenko 'scope I bought on eBay - I thought they mostly made coffee! I don't show that off in Swaro owning company. But as somebody so wisely pointed out to me on this forum a bit ago, any 'scope is better than none!)
All my 'scope upgrading ambitions were shot out of the air when I upgraded photo equipment recently - it's going to be a while until I can visit the depths of Cheshire again for my cup of Focalpoint coffee.
Doc Brewster said
Tue Aug 25 4:16 PM, 2015
Craig Higson wrote:
Well...if your'e offering!!
At the risk of thread diversion....It also relates to another 'pet' hate I have. Binocular snobbery.
Again that does exist, but the non-European brands are so good now that it seems to be less rife than it was a few years ago. I see more Opticron out there being used 'loud & proud' and they are great optics used by great birders. I bet lots of the good birds in GM are found by folk not using the 'big 3' optics!!
Doc Brewster said
Tue Aug 25 4:06 PM, 2015
I am sure Ian will be OK in me adding a wee plug here
Remember Focalpoint Optics is your local dealer & has a great range of optics to try, overlooking our feeding station & the Cheshire countryside. We sponsor the Manchester Birding Website, so help to keep these forums going for everyone to use, and we all agree that they are a fabulous resource. Come & try out all the optics, high, mid and low price range at no obligation and any accessories you need too. We have been in the 'game' for over 20 years and I have been here personally over 15 years so we have an idea of what we are talking about. We also have a feel for the best liked models, each customer adds to our 'opinion' poll of optics as they try several & choose one. Everyone has a favourite and no-one will say they bought the wrong one & will always recommend 'their' choice to others. Best bet - use you eyes and test all the available models yourself, my background is in visual physiology at Sheffield Uni so knowing how complicated the retina is I am not surprised that different folk prefer different optics.
Pop out & see us whenever you need advice on optics & if I am in I will make all forum users a brew (if I am not too busy with lots of customers), just say that you saw us on here and I'll do the rest!!! See you soon I hope
Ivan Ellison said
Tue Aug 25 3:04 PM, 2015
Now by no way am I an expert on the manufacturing of optics and people far cleverer than me will be able to explain all about diffraction and chromatic aberration- although I do know what they are and how the affect the view you have etc- I do feel my two penneth worth may be of help to people considering purchasing high end optics. For over 10 years I had been using quite happily a mid price set of opticron 8 x 40 binocs. About 2 years ago being in a better financial state I purchased a set of Zeiss Victory FL 8 x 32, a superb set of binos. It was like having a new set of eyes. Having tried other brands at the bird fair they suited my eyes the best. You cannot get a true feel for them in. 5 mins of messing around on a stand and you have to use them in the field over time to get the best out of them and appreciate the difference. I have this week just taken delivery of a set of the new Zeiss SF 10 x 42. Having been forunate enough to be invited to Portugal last year by Zeiss and having a few days to the field test both magnifications I chose the 10 x as no difference in weight and felt the extra power would be beneficial, having seen no major difference in low light performance. Early days yet but having just returned from a good 4 hour walk around Elton I can say without doubt using the SF's is like having my new set of eyes polished. They are superbly balanced and feel great in the hand. Quick focus from near to far and the extra 25% magnification is a major benefit- seeing very easily the difference in leg colour between willow warbler and chiffchaff without struggling. Take me back 2 years just before I purchased an " alpha" bino and I would have said at my age and with my eyes there would be no benefit. The total opposite is now true , as I have got older my eyes have deteriorated and the better glass/ optics are worth every penny. Anyone who wants to enjoy our hobby in later years will benefit greatly by biting the bullet and making the plunge into the world of top optics. As others have said we all prefer different things and my preference is for the Zeiss brand, if anyone can be lured away from the green rubber and flying eagle of Swarovski ,give the small blue badge a serious look I don't think you will be disappointed. In line with the thread - yes things are getting expensive but for at least 10 years + of pleasure and enjoyment I feel the extra expense is well worth it.
As a little extra I have also just purchased a Vortex harness for my binos, neck ache after 35 years of physical work and a day in the field prompted the purchase. The extra weight of my new binos was not noticed at all, the harness fits snugly and provides some slight resistance which improves your stability when holding them to your eyes. This is probably the best £15 I have spent in a long time.Buy one and give it a go, you will not go back to a strap around your neck .
-- Edited by Ivan Ellison on Tuesday 25th of August 2015 03:09:19 PM
Craig Higson said
Mon Aug 24 8:54 PM, 2015
Well...if your'e offering!!
At the risk of thread diversion....It also relates to another 'pet' hate I have. Binocular snobbery.
So often birders seem to judge the ability of others by the optics round their neck. A completely arbitrary and stupid way of thinking but I really do believe it happens. How often do people with Swarovski's/Leica's/Zeiss get referred to as experts and those with a pair of battered old pro prisms must be beginners with dads old bins from the wardrobe? How often is the reverse true!!!
Doc Brewster said
Mon Aug 24 12:01 PM, 2015
Craig Higson wrote: But from what I remember a few years ago, the improvements seem to be dramatic.
Again this comment is absolutely spot on (you want a job?!!! ). There was a surge in improvements to optics about 6-9 years ago, when new models were a marked improvement over their predecessors. You could say that changing 'up' in those days was very well worth the cost. As you rightly say the improvements nowadays are tiny, and maybe in many peoples opinions not worth an upgrade, especially given the cost. Coming into the market as a first-time buyer now there is no reason not to get the top models, if you have the money and the best is what you want. But, in the mid and lower ranges there is better value for money related to performance as the optics in these price brackets have improved more than those at the top (relatively speaking). Some of the mid range models have the best warranties too, like Opticrons Japanese models with 30 years, compared to 10 years for the top priced bins!
The only way to decide is to test a lot of models in different light levels, get a feel for balance, ease of use, suitability for your eyes and importantly the price should be in your budget range!!
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Monday 24th of August 2015 12:02:07 PM
Craig Higson said
Mon Aug 24 12:03 AM, 2015
Doc Brewster wrote:
I have to agree totally Craig. The new EL SVs and the Zeiss SFs both at over £2000 have broken through that next price barrier and that will be the advent of a slow creep upwards through the £2000s over the next few years no doubt! As manager of an optics shop we actually get lower margins on these premium brands than on the lower price brackets so as both a birder and a seller I am not happy about this creep upwards. The top stuff is undoubtably better, but only by a small degree from stuff say in the mid range. There will still be lots of buyers for the higher priced optics but I think the trend will be to look lower down the pricing ladder. We have seen a massive increase in sales of Zeiss Conquests and Opticron DBA Oasis bins in the mid price range and many folk going fopr SLC rather than EL bins in the top priced Swarovskis and the ATS Scope rather than the ATX.
I know what you mean also about some chaeper brands looking 'just as good' as the top stuff, but remember in the ideal conditions at places like the viewing marquee at the BirdFair much cheaper optics can look good as you are using them in what I call 'equalising' conditions. Put then up against each other in a dark woodland at the end of a Britsh winters days & the better optics will show their worth. BUT, it is always how much you may use your equipment in more challenging cionditions that should direct your choice as to whether to go higher up the price range for better optics. The high priced ones DO have better light transmission data on a laser-rig test bed, have less chromatic abberation, less fall off etc, etc, and so ARE worth the extra if you have the money!! But if your eyes tell you a cheaper pair suits you better, then don't be swayed by any hype or even other birders advice, buy the cheaper pair!!! Aso when buying set a budget & don't be tempted to go too far above it (nearly happened to me car buying recently & only just remembered my own advice in time!!!).
p.s. Traditional EL SVs will be available for a short time yet, but personally I use the SLCs (lots cheaper) and prefer them!!!
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Sunday 23rd of August 2015 04:37:40 PM
Yes, know what you mean Doc, and I would never try to dissuade someone from purchasing a top end model. I guess it just seems the big names are trying to squeeze more and more money from us for less and less improvements in what we are really bothered about - the view! I'm glad I bought my bins last year as I certainly would not pay £2000 for these new Swaro's.
As I said, I was incredibly impressed with the mid range models, but agree that you are looking in pretty much ideal viewing circumstances. Plus, the warranties etc etc may not be as comprehensive. But from what I remember a few years ago, the improvements seem to be dramatic.
Doc Brewster said
Sun Aug 23 4:35 PM, 2015
I have to agree totally Craig. The new EL SVs and the Zeiss SFs both at over £2000 have broken through that next price barrier and that will be the advent of a slow creep upwards through the £2000s over the next few years no doubt! As manager of an optics shop we actually get lower margins on these premium brands than on the lower price brackets so as both a birder and a seller I am not happy about this creep upwards. The top stuff is undoubtably better, but only by a small degree from stuff say in the mid range. There will still be lots of buyers for the higher priced optics but I think the trend will be to look lower down the pricing ladder. We have seen a massive increase in sales of Zeiss Conquests and Opticron DBA Oasis bins in the mid price range and many folk going fopr SLC rather than EL bins in the top priced Swarovskis and the ATS Scope rather than the ATX.
I know what you mean also about some chaeper brands looking 'just as good' as the top stuff, but remember in the ideal conditions at places like the viewing marquee at the BirdFair much cheaper optics can look good as you are using them in what I call 'equalising' conditions. Put then up against each other in a dark woodland at the end of a Britsh winters days & the better optics will show their worth. BUT, it is always how much you may use your equipment in more challenging cionditions that should direct your choice as to whether to go higher up the price range for better optics. The high priced ones DO have better light transmission data on a laser-rig test bed, have less chromatic abberation, less fall off etc, etc, and so ARE worth the extra if you have the money!! But if your eyes tell you a cheaper pair suits you better, then don't be swayed by any hype or even other birders advice, buy the cheaper pair!!! Aso when buying set a budget & don't be tempted to go too far above it (nearly happened to me car buying recently & only just remembered my own advice in time!!!).
p.s. Traditional EL SVs will be available for a short time yet, but personally I use the SLCs (lots cheaper) and prefer them!!!
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Sunday 23rd of August 2015 04:37:40 PM
Craig Higson said
Sun Aug 23 4:03 PM, 2015
Posted this elsewhere too, but value the views of people on here, so here goes. Particularly interested if Doc has a view.
Also, please consider I am fortunate enough to own three of the so called 'Alpha's' so this isn't me just having a pop at people with top end optics...if you see what I mean.
At the British Birdwatching Fair yesterday I spent (as always) a bit of time in the optics tent, as well as visiting the stands of the other optical companies (Vortex, Meopta etc) around the site. I knew Swarovski had re-vamped the EL's with a few cosmetic/ergonomic features but was shocked to see them on sale at the fair for £2000! Thats £250 extra at least.
£2000! Really? For what? A new strap attachment, armouring and some objective covers that I personally don't use? Similarly - Zeiss with their ST. To my eyes they are no better than the HT. Are they really worth nearly £600 more?
Are we simply looking at companies now saying "They are selling their product at £x and we are selling at £y and we need to sell them for £x 'cause they are and we're missing out on profit!"
Leica has come in for stick in some places for not upping its game in recent years to match Swaro. Well, I'm sorry, but after looking through their HD+ bins they're at least as good to my eyes, if not better, and they haven't increased their price. I would seriously consider swapping my 12 month old swarovisions for a pair. Similarly, some of the 'mid range' or 'non-alpha' brands are so close to the top end ones optically (Meopta Meostar were particularly good) I found myself asking would I seriously pay £2000 for the Swaro's just because of some cosmetic improvements (assuming the traditional SV's are finished).
My Dad had Swift bins and passed on a pair to me in the early '80s. Unfortunately they went when I got burgled. Last weekend I went birding/butterflying with my brother down in South Oxfordshire and he has my (long departed) Dad's replacement Swifts which have a zoom function (not sure if any modern bins have this) and they are housed in a lovely real leather boxcase. And modern bins certainly don't have those.
They've certainly done me (and my late Dad) proud Craig, and by no means by the way should my post sound as though I'm shunning Swarovski users, I might even get one when I feel like I want one.
A couple of times in the past though, I've picked up on a distant bird, obviously already knowing it's there due to it being posted or reported, and when someone else has arrived with a scope and asked me if the bird was still present, I've put them onto it and they've been a bit surprised that I've located it with just bins.
Never really bothered me all that..."just because someone has better equipment they must be a better birder than you". Absolute codswallop. All it means is they've either got more money than you, or they've saved up hard earned money to buy a top brand product. They are by no means a better birder (although quite rightly could be, depending on who they are) they are simply better equipped for birding.
For years I shared my Dad's Swift Audubon 8.5 x 44's, until this year when I got myself a pair of Opticron Trail-finder 10 x 42's from Doc. Dad's Swift never did me any harm, and I was never embarrassed of using them infront of a Swarovski laden crowd! You should never be embarrassed of doing what you love just because your equipment isn't as good as someone else's. I didn't even have a scope until this year, opting for an Acuter Grand-Vista 80 from Doc and very happy with it too.
I will upgrade at some point, but for now, I could be surrounded by gold-plated Swarovski bins or scopes, I'll still be there with my Acuter and Opticrons.
(On the other hand, I'm still slumming it with a Kenko 'scope I bought on eBay - I thought they mostly made coffee! I don't show that off in Swaro owning company. But as somebody so wisely pointed out to me on this forum a bit ago, any 'scope is better than none!)
All my 'scope upgrading ambitions were shot out of the air when I upgraded photo equipment recently - it's going to be a while until I can visit the depths of Cheshire again for my cup of Focalpoint coffee.
Again that does exist, but the non-European brands are so good now that it seems to be less rife than it was a few years ago. I see more Opticron out there being used 'loud & proud' and they are great optics used by great birders. I bet lots of the good birds in GM are found by folk not using the 'big 3' optics!!
Remember Focalpoint Optics is your local dealer & has a great range of optics to try, overlooking our feeding station & the Cheshire countryside. We sponsor the Manchester Birding Website, so help to keep these forums going for everyone to use, and we all agree that they are a fabulous resource. Come & try out all the optics, high, mid and low price range at no obligation and any accessories you need too. We have been in the 'game' for over 20 years and I have been here personally over 15 years so we have an idea of what we are talking about. We also have a feel for the best liked models, each customer adds to our 'opinion' poll of optics as they try several & choose one. Everyone has a favourite and no-one will say they bought the wrong one & will always recommend 'their' choice to others. Best bet - use you eyes and test all the available models yourself, my background is in visual physiology at Sheffield Uni so knowing how complicated the retina is I am not surprised that different folk prefer different optics.
Pop out & see us whenever you need advice on optics & if I am in I will make all forum users a brew (if I am not too busy with lots of customers), just say that you saw us on here and I'll do the rest!!! See you soon I hope
For over 10 years I had been using quite happily a mid price set of opticron 8 x 40 binocs. About 2 years ago being in a better financial state I purchased a set of Zeiss Victory FL 8 x 32, a superb set of binos. It was like having a new set of eyes. Having tried other brands at the bird fair they suited my eyes the best. You cannot get a true feel for them in. 5 mins of messing around on a stand and you have to use them in the field over time to get the best out of them and appreciate the difference.
I have this week just taken delivery of a set of the new Zeiss SF 10 x 42. Having been forunate enough to be invited to Portugal last year by Zeiss and having a few days to the field test both magnifications I chose the 10 x as no difference in weight and felt the extra power would be beneficial, having seen no major difference in low light performance.
Early days yet but having just returned from a good 4 hour walk around Elton I can say without doubt using the SF's is like having my new set of eyes polished. They are superbly balanced and feel great in the hand. Quick focus from near to far and the extra 25% magnification is a major benefit- seeing very easily the difference in leg colour between willow warbler and chiffchaff without struggling.
Take me back 2 years just before I purchased an " alpha" bino and I would have said at my age and with my eyes there would be no benefit. The total opposite is now true , as I have got older my eyes have deteriorated and the better glass/ optics are worth every penny. Anyone who wants to enjoy our hobby in later years will benefit greatly by biting the bullet and making the plunge into the world of top optics.
As others have said we all prefer different things and my preference is for the Zeiss brand, if anyone can be lured away from the green rubber and flying eagle of Swarovski ,give the small blue badge a serious look I don't think you will be disappointed.
In line with the thread - yes things are getting expensive but for at least 10 years + of pleasure and enjoyment I feel the extra expense is well worth it.
As a little extra I have also just purchased a Vortex harness for my binos, neck ache after 35 years of physical work and a day in the field prompted the purchase. The extra weight of my new binos was not noticed at all, the harness fits snugly and provides some slight resistance which improves your stability when holding them to your eyes. This is probably the best £15 I have spent in a long time.Buy one and give it a go, you will not go back to a strap around your neck .
-- Edited by Ivan Ellison on Tuesday 25th of August 2015 03:09:19 PM
At the risk of thread diversion....It also relates to another 'pet' hate I have. Binocular snobbery.
So often birders seem to judge the ability of others by the optics round their neck. A completely arbitrary and stupid way of thinking but I really do believe it happens. How often do people with Swarovski's/Leica's/Zeiss get referred to as experts and those with a pair of battered old pro prisms must be beginners with dads old bins from the wardrobe? How often is the reverse true!!!
Again this comment is absolutely spot on (you want a job?!!!
The only way to decide is to test a lot of models in different light levels, get a feel for balance, ease of use, suitability for your eyes and importantly the price should be in your budget range!!
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Monday 24th of August 2015 12:02:07 PM
Yes, know what you mean Doc, and I would never try to dissuade someone from purchasing a top end model. I guess it just seems the big names are trying to squeeze more and more money from us for less and less improvements in what we are really bothered about - the view! I'm glad I bought my bins last year as I certainly would not pay £2000 for these new Swaro's.
As I said, I was incredibly impressed with the mid range models, but agree that you are looking in pretty much ideal viewing circumstances. Plus, the warranties etc etc may not be as comprehensive. But from what I remember a few years ago, the improvements seem to be dramatic.
I know what you mean also about some chaeper brands looking 'just as good' as the top stuff, but remember in the ideal conditions at places like the viewing marquee at the BirdFair much cheaper optics can look good as you are using them in what I call 'equalising' conditions. Put then up against each other in a dark woodland at the end of a Britsh winters days & the better optics will show their worth. BUT, it is always how much you may use your equipment in more challenging cionditions that should direct your choice as to whether to go higher up the price range for better optics. The high priced ones DO have better light transmission data on a laser-rig test bed, have less chromatic abberation, less fall off etc, etc, and so ARE worth the extra if you have the money!! But if your eyes tell you a cheaper pair suits you better, then don't be swayed by any hype or even other birders advice, buy the cheaper pair!!! Aso when buying set a budget & don't be tempted to go too far above it (nearly happened to me car buying recently & only just remembered my own advice in time!!!).
p.s. Traditional EL SVs will be available for a short time yet, but personally I use the SLCs (lots cheaper) and prefer them!!!
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Sunday 23rd of August 2015 04:37:40 PM
Also, please consider I am fortunate enough to own three of the so called 'Alpha's' so this isn't me just having a pop at people with top end optics...if you see what I mean.
At the British Birdwatching Fair yesterday I spent (as always) a bit of time in the optics tent, as well as visiting the stands of the other optical companies (Vortex, Meopta etc) around the site. I knew Swarovski had re-vamped the EL's with a few cosmetic/ergonomic features but was shocked to see them on sale at the fair for £2000! Thats £250 extra at least.
£2000! Really? For what? A new strap attachment, armouring and some objective covers that I personally don't use? Similarly - Zeiss with their ST. To my eyes they are no better than the HT. Are they really worth nearly £600 more?
Are we simply looking at companies now saying "They are selling their product at £x and we are selling at £y and we need to sell them for £x 'cause they are and we're missing out on profit!"
Leica has come in for stick in some places for not upping its game in recent years to match Swaro. Well, I'm sorry, but after looking through their HD+ bins they're at least as good to my eyes, if not better, and they haven't increased their price. I would seriously consider swapping my 12 month old swarovisions for a pair. Similarly, some of the 'mid range' or 'non-alpha' brands are so close to the top end ones optically (Meopta Meostar were particularly good) I found myself asking would I seriously pay £2000 for the Swaro's just because of some cosmetic improvements (assuming the traditional SV's are finished).
It all feels like a bit of a race to the bottom.