I think this is back to the original topic which was "Talking to Cat Owners".....
..... In thinking back to my conversation with the owner in question, I didn't put my point across very well, because of the way I put things.
In response to his "it's nature". I said "the cat isn't a natural predator", I retrospect I think he thought I meant "it's not in the cat's nature to predate" which would clearly be a ridiculous thing to say.
What I should have said was "the cat isn't a native predator" (a statement which, in order to be accurate, would of course require some qualification)
Btw - The chap doesn't want to put a bell on the cat because he got it to keep mice in check.
John Doherty said
Mon Jun 9 7:42 AM, 2014
I personally can think of lots of great things to say about cats - they're intelligent, loving independent creatures - and of course birders aren't generally going to find them appealing but I do and own one - she is a housecat so she won't be chasing any birds. I think any cat-owner who refuses to put a bell on a collar for a cat to remedy the situation which kicked this thread off is foolish at the very least -
Ian McKerchar said
Sun Jun 8 9:46 PM, 2014
This thread continues to go off topic and for those who wonder why that's such a problem, well, this forum like so any other has been there and got the tee-shirt. Time to move on folks
Denzil Nicklin said
Sun Jun 8 9:26 PM, 2014
Tim Wilcox wrote:
Oh dear! I love birds and I love cats too and was distraught when my Siamese cat, Desmond (named by the ex so don't blame me) died of heart failure last summer. He never killed a thing because he was useless at it and he went out only when I let him out - mainly a house cat. Previous cats did indeed kill birds and would bring them as gifts such as Bing's proudly presented dead Magpie. Many on this site mention their dogs (not a fan) and although they don't kill songbirds directly they do disturb nesting birds wherever they are walked - which seems to cover the whole county. NB no cats disturbing the moors or mosslands only gardens unlike dogs so maybe all our pets damage wildlife. But nothing like as much as human beings...
A very fair assessment Tim...although unfortunately, cats cause problems with wildlife, in a lot more places than just gardens I'm afraid, for example, it is estimated, that there are in excess of 100,000 feral cats in the scottish highlands ALONE, never mind the the U.K. as a whole, and these, are widely accepted to be the main driving force behind the extinction of the Scottish Wildcat.
Dennis atherton said
Sun Jun 8 10:48 AM, 2014
Sorry slightly off topic but inline with previous comments
There is a majority of people out there who hate people. They are called "the people who hate people party". They would be a good strong party if they could get together and organised. Each time they schedule a meeting the people ask are there going to be other people there? Once they hear the answer is yes. They say. "I can't make it then"
Tanmay Dixit said
Sun Jun 8 10:07 AM, 2014
I always think we have to be careful when talking in this way about our wildlife or pets...for example my respect for Iolo Williams (who I think is a great naturalist and has done much for conservation) was reduced slightly when he repeatedly claimed on a documentary: 'I hate grey squirrels' and similar comments. The decline of the red squirrel is NOT the fault of the greys, it is the fault of people who introduced them. I must say that Iolo did make it clear later that there wasn't anything intrinsically wrong with greys.
Similarly I don't hate cats - I hate irresponsible cat owners (I have similar problems near/in my garden with stray cats). When I volunteer at Burton Mere I am often asked about dogs and should we hate them - and my response (ingrained after using it so many times) is 'dogs aren't the problem, irresponsible dog owners are.'
Just as a response to Ian and Rick, I remember seeing a clip of Chris Packham on a comedy show called Room 101 (I think the point of this show is celebrity contestants try to persuade the host to put their 'pet hates' into room 101 - ie to metaphorically remove them from the earth) and the topic was animals. The animal that Chris chose as his 'hate' was homo sapiens. The host and contestants did not take him seriously but he was very clear that there is only one species that consciously attempts to destroy the planet etc.
Finally to get back to topic - I find it really varies amongst cat owners (as with everyone). My personal experiences haven't been too bad, although I recall a similar conversation (argument?) on my first day at Burton Mere when I pointed out a marsh harrier to someone and he continually whinged about how these raptors were causing songbird declines, they are such cruel things, we shouldn't be protecting them etc, with his sole piece of evidence being starting every sentence with 'the Daily Mail says...' Similar misunderstandings with cat owners are only too common I feel.
That's my opinion anyway.
Rick Hall said
Sat Jun 7 10:52 PM, 2014
I hate people too......
and cats!
Ian McKerchar said
Sat Jun 7 10:23 PM, 2014
I have watched this thread with interest, only as I fully expected it to become a rant against cats, which this topic always has done previously. Nice to see another side of the story from Tim's point of view but I would ask that this doesn't degenerate any further, nor get too far off the original question by Phil.
Regardless of your opinion on cats (mink, Ruddy Ducks, parakeets etc etc...) its worth bearing in mind that I don't suppose any of them asked to be introduced into our country and, as Tim has already hinted at, they're not really the root of the problem or the scourge of our land; people are . I don't doubt that we do more harm or kill much more wildlife than all the cats put together.
I hate people...
Tim Wilcox said
Sat Jun 7 10:11 PM, 2014
Oh dear! I love birds and I love cats too and was distraught when my Siamese cat, Desmond (named by the ex so don't blame me) died of heart failure last summer. He never killed a thing because he was useless at it and he went out only when I let him out - mainly a house cat. Previous cats did indeed kill birds and would bring them as gifts such as Bing's proudly presented dead Magpie. Many on this site mention their dogs (not a fan) and although they don't kill songbirds directly they do disturb nesting birds wherever they are walked - which seems to cover the whole county. NB no cats disturbing the moors or mosslands only gardens unlike dogs so maybe all our pets damage wildlife. But nothing like as much as human beings...
Karen Foulkes said
Sat Jun 7 9:28 AM, 2014
Both our neighbours own cats and I loathe the bloody animals!
There are also at least another half dozen cats that visit the garden.
One of the neighbours does try to put a collar with a bell on her cat, but it tries to take it off as apparently they do not like the attention it brings, but it does always have a collar with a bell on it.
The other neighbour is of the opinion that "it's natural for cats to kill things". She doesn't seem to care that her well-fed cats kill without discretion and don't actually eat what they kill. Her cats are prolific bird and small mammal killers and they like to torment frogs. One year I even bought collars for her cats with bells on, but she took them off in the end because "they didn't like them". I have also passed one of the RSPB's leaflets to this neighbour but with no effect.
I think we are in a no-win situation here as most cat owners seem to be of the same opinion, that what cats do is natural.
I cannot think of a single thing to say in favour of cats.
-- Edited by Karen Foulkes on Saturday 7th of June 2014 09:29:19 AM
David Lumb said
Fri Jun 6 10:37 AM, 2014
A couple of years ago myself and a couple of neighbours rescued an injured Blackbird from underneath a car in front of my house. To make things easier I called at the house of the cat owner and asked her to take her cat in whilst we flushed the Blackbird out. I got the usual cat owner's comment that "her cat does not do things like that". I have heard that comment many times.
The bird did survive and nested in my back garden.
Charles Coutts said
Thu Jun 5 7:53 AM, 2014
You are wasting your time talking to cat owners,most of them get a cat when its a kitten and its cute,but after a year they cant be bothered with it.There are thousands of cats on the Wythenshawe estate,and the population is getting bigger every year.
Phil Barnett said
Thu Jun 5 7:35 AM, 2014
A local cat has taken to hiding at the bottom of a neighbours fence. It waits for birds to land on our fence then pounces. Its had quite a lot of success recently with all the young inexperienced birds about.
After watching the distressing sight of it killing a Great Tit. I went round to the owners house to ask if hed consider putting a bell on the cat. His reply was its nature, this seems to be the standard position of the cat owner and it really riles me.
When I explained that the it wasnt nature because the cat isnt a natural predator he seemed genuinely incredulous.
Sparrowhawks, Magpies, Foxes are natural predators and are obviously a integral part of the food chain. What isnt natural is to have highly effective bird killing animals at way higher densities than youd get in the wild.
Id be interested in to know what experience others have had in talking to cat owners.
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Thursday 5th of June 2014 08:32:52 AM
..... In thinking back to my conversation with the owner in question, I didn't put my point across very well, because of the way I put things.
In response to his "it's nature". I said "the cat isn't a natural predator", I retrospect I think he thought I meant "it's not in the cat's nature to predate" which would clearly be a ridiculous thing to say.
What I should have said was "the cat isn't a native predator" (a statement which, in order to be accurate, would of course require some qualification)
Btw - The chap doesn't want to put a bell on the cat because he got it to keep mice in check.
A very fair assessment Tim...although unfortunately, cats cause problems with wildlife, in a lot more places than just gardens I'm afraid, for example, it is estimated, that there are in excess of 100,000 feral cats in the scottish highlands ALONE, never mind the the U.K. as a whole, and these, are widely accepted to be the main driving force behind the extinction of the Scottish Wildcat.
There is a majority of people out there who hate people. They are called "the people who hate people party". They would be a good strong party if they could get together and organised. Each time they schedule a meeting the people ask are there going to be other people there? Once they hear the answer is yes. They say. "I can't make it then"
Similarly I don't hate cats - I hate irresponsible cat owners (I have similar problems near/in my garden with stray cats). When I volunteer at Burton Mere I am often asked about dogs and should we hate them - and my response (ingrained after using it so many times) is 'dogs aren't the problem, irresponsible dog owners are.'
Just as a response to Ian and Rick, I remember seeing a clip of Chris Packham on a comedy show called Room 101 (I think the point of this show is celebrity contestants try to persuade the host to put their 'pet hates' into room 101 - ie to metaphorically remove them from the earth) and the topic was animals. The animal that Chris chose as his 'hate' was homo sapiens. The host and contestants did not take him seriously but he was very clear that there is only one species that consciously attempts to destroy the planet etc.
Finally to get back to topic - I find it really varies amongst cat owners (as with everyone). My personal experiences haven't been too bad, although I recall a similar conversation (argument?) on my first day at Burton Mere when I pointed out a marsh harrier to someone and he continually whinged about how these raptors were causing songbird declines, they are such cruel things, we shouldn't be protecting them etc, with his sole piece of evidence being starting every sentence with 'the Daily Mail says...' Similar misunderstandings with cat owners are only too common I feel.
That's my opinion anyway.
and cats!
Regardless of your opinion on cats (mink, Ruddy Ducks, parakeets etc etc...) its worth bearing in mind that I don't suppose any of them asked to be introduced into our country and, as Tim has already hinted at, they're not really the root of the problem or the scourge of our land; people are
I hate people...
There are also at least another half dozen cats that visit the garden.
One of the neighbours does try to put a collar with a bell on her cat, but it tries to take it off as apparently they do not like the attention it brings, but it does always have a collar with a bell on it.
The other neighbour is of the opinion that "it's natural for cats to kill things". She doesn't seem to care that her well-fed cats kill without discretion and don't actually eat what they kill. Her cats are prolific bird and small mammal killers and they like to torment frogs. One year I even bought collars for her cats with bells on, but she took them off in the end because "they didn't like them". I have also passed one of the RSPB's leaflets to this neighbour but with no effect.
I think we are in a no-win situation here as most cat owners seem to be of the same opinion, that what cats do is natural.
I cannot think of a single thing to say in favour of cats.
-- Edited by Karen Foulkes on Saturday 7th of June 2014 09:29:19 AM
The bird did survive and nested in my back garden.
they cant be bothered with it.There are thousands of cats on the Wythenshawe estate,and the population is getting
bigger every year.
After watching the distressing sight of it killing a Great Tit. I went round to the owners house to ask if hed consider putting a bell on the cat. His reply was its nature, this seems to be the standard position of the cat owner and it really riles me.
When I explained that the it wasnt nature because the cat isnt a natural predator he seemed genuinely incredulous.
Sparrowhawks, Magpies, Foxes are natural predators and are obviously a integral part of the food chain. What isnt natural is to have highly effective bird killing animals at way higher densities than youd get in the wild.
Id be interested in to know what experience others have had in talking to cat owners.
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Thursday 5th of June 2014 08:32:52 AM