Mark Rigby's leap over the wall into his garden in order to get overhead Buzzards for his garden list brings a wry smile to my face as I speculate as to how high was the wall, (was the leap a "Fosberry Flop" or straddle style); - either way, I trust the wall was less than 7ft 8ins and that he enjoyed a soft landing as concussion would have rather defeated the object?

I have a parallel memory of two similar but separate occasions, one in the early 90's when walking with Barbara along the ridge of hills to the south of Wolsingham we found a Red Kite (some time before the reintroduction in the Derwent Valley), and also a decade later a Marsh Harrier. On both occasions we drove the mile and a half home with some haste, set up the 'scope on the patio, and ticked them for the garden list.

I think that along with most "garden" listers, we are quite happy to have a list which is birds seen "in, over, or from" our garden, and would not of course apply these loose criteria to other lists.

Happy Days,
Mike

Going back to Rick's original question on this thread - surely the border would be evident where the cobbles ended and the pavement turned to gold

Another scenario to keep any paranoid county listers awake at night - boundary changes

Though I didn't see it, a Dotterel was present on two days (actually an evening and early-morning only) in the early 1990's on Billinge Hill, which at the time was in Wigan/Greater Manchester. In 1996 it 'moved' in to St Helens

How would this stand with the conscientious county lister

-- Edited by dave broome on Monday 9th of June 2014 11:46:55 AM

Mark Rigby wrote:

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I've not had my resolve tested yet though! Would I have a change of view if I was in West Yorkshire as a Honey Buzzard flew out of GM airspace!

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Having just spent some time on the county border watching a Short-eared Owl fly back and forth hunting over West Yorkshire, approach Greater Manchester then turn back, I was tempted to speculate on whether birds recognised our invisible territories

But what does it matter? It was a cracking bird, cheered me up no end and, as Ian says "life's too short..."

Just let me clarify, that I have reiterated many times on this forum and elsewhere that any guidelines (rules) for personal lists only apply to those who display their scores on the Manchester Birding website, so that each can fairly compare their lists to those of others; with a 'level playing field'. What anyone counts on any of their personal lists outside those is rightly their business and I care not.

The subject of listing can be contentious to say the least though and that is the reason why I purposefully omitted anything about borders in site/borough etc lists, but one thing's for sure; any species on any list within the county should have to actually be seen in within the county boundary! Where you are standing when you see it is down to the individual observer and his/her opinion (morals?) on it but from speaking to a large number of county listers, those opinions vary wildly. The fact is though that there are no 'guidelines' on the latter because I'm not sure it really matters so long as the observer can justify it to themselves and life's too short for the likely long and drawn out discussion which may very well ensue

Andy Isherwood wrote:

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I know for the sake of county listing in manchester Ian has recommended certain rules ...

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I can only find recommendations from Ian on following BOU guidelines re. acceptable species and on the unacceptability of heard only records. Nothing regarding borders. I think Ian's statement, "all [records] will be taken at face value and honesty trusted" is the key. If you say a bird was in the county then Ian will accept your word.

Cheers John.

With ALL listing surely it is only if these are going to be ranked that "rules" need apply it is up to all of us individually what we count/don't count. I know many people who count species on lots of different lists that I personally would not, be it because of the views obtained, where exactly the bird was, doubts over origins or even is it a species at all and who decides this. I know for the sake of county listing in manchester Ian has recommended certain rules and that is fine for the purpose of the listers tables on this site, but for other lists eg sites, garden etc then only we can decide.

I suppose from the point of allowing for any discrepancies, I can see the reason why the birder and the bird would need to be in the same county but if there is absolutely no doubt, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be accepted on a list.

When you think about it, most Garden ticks are really a contradiction of the fact that the birder and the bird have to be in the same spot but I accept things are a bit more relaxed with garden listing.

Like you say, each to their own but just a thought!

An old argument and we have been here before.

Living where I do close to borders with both Derbyshire and Cheshire much of the birding on my chosen local patches flirt with boundaries.

On Ludworth Moor, for example, I can be walking on a bridle way with the fields to the left in Derbyshire and the ones to the right in GM. I think the path itself is in Derbyshire but I would have no hesitation in counting that rare wheatear in a right hand GM field on my county list. Scoping at distance and triangulating boundaries is more problematic though - you would have to be very certain.

My personal view: If a bird is clearly and indisputably in GM it doesn't matter where I am standing. But before you all go through my list forensically I don't have anything contentious on it (at the moment)

Cheers John

My personal view is that bird and birder have to be in the county, although I keep a garden list and count birds that I see from my garden.

On a couple of occasions I was disappointed to see a Goosander fly over my garden but I was in a neighbours so 'couldn't' count it and on another occasion, could not get in my garden before it flew out of sight.

About 10 years ago, 2 Buzzards (a major rarity in Oldham then) were heard calling and a quick scan found them over my house. I was on the pavement trimming my hedge and had to leap over my garden wall to count them. Like I say it's all down to personal preference!

I've not had my resolve tested yet though! Would I have a change of view if I was in West Yorkshire as a Honey Buzzard flew out of GM airspace!

I personally think that any bird seen in a particular county/borough (regardless of where the observer is actually stood) should count. I do however like to abide properly by the rules of county/borough birding so if a Black Stork for example, was seen flying in GM from Cheshire, I wouldn't include it on any personal list simply because the general ruling would exclude this.

However, this sighting has to still go on record with the County recorder because regardless of where I am situated, it is a fact that the bird has still been seen in that particular county or borough.

Ian I seem to recall, once saw an Osprey at Pennington but from Hope Carr so although this wasn't actually counted on his personal site list at the time (all down to personal choice at the end of the day), it still constitutes a record for Pennington regardless of where he was otherwise we run the risk of some great sightings going unrecorded.







-- Edited by Phil Owen on Friday 6th of June 2014 02:43:24 PM

-- Edited by Phil Owen on Friday 6th of June 2014 02:45:16 PM

Hi Rick,
I think there are precedents which would allow one to be in say Cheshire but so long as the target bird is definately within Greater Manchester, it seems to be (and should be in my view) countable; - after all it's surely where the bird is that's the whole point of a record.
I think from memory that one well experienced birder was himself in Derbyshire watching a Rough-legged Buzzard flying into G M a year or two ago, and as another precedent, you and I watched a Common Buzzard last month(during our Wigan "Big Day") flying into G M airspace whilst we were initially in Cheshire, calculating its position relative to the power lines. Although we also later saw it again when we and it were both in G M, had we not enjoyed the later sightings I should have had a quite clear conscience about counting the first sighting.

On the other hand I think it's pretty well accepted on the basis of common sense that if an observer is up on Winter Hill on the Manchester side looking at a Snow Bunting on the Lancashire side, then that can only be countable for G M if the bird were to fly demonstrably and indisputably across into Manchester airspace. - I cite this as an example as this very scenario has been a (regular!) frustration for one of my friends!

Regards,
Mike

Definitely need to be in the same country!

I thought you could count birds seen from cheshire/lancs as long as they are definitely in GM. But you can't count birds seen IN cheshire/lancs seen FROM GM.

Is this wrong?

Thnkfully none on my list fall into this category, but for future reference, it would be nice to get clarification of the accepted ruling on this...

I tried that with a Peregrine which was seen from Cheshire but entered GM. I thought you and the bird need to be in the same country? No cheating now......!

Rick Hall wrote:

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Looks like I'm roughly 500 yards into Cheshire.

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Telescope on the roof then for those passing Black Storks

Thanks John,

Looks like I'm roughly 500 yards into Cheshire.

Rick

-- Edited by Rick Hall on Monday 2nd of June 2014 01:17:08 PM

Depends precisely where you work Rick, Handforth is Cheshire whilst, for instance, Stanley Green is in GM. Try Streetmap online, it clearly shows the Cheshire/GM border. This link may work

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/idld.srf?x=385500&y=383500&z=120&sv=385500,383500&st=4&mapp=idld.srf&searchp=s.srf&dn=714&ax=385500&ay=383500&lm=0

But the best boundary checker is the Geographers' A-Z Greater Manchester Street Atlas.

Cheers John

Handforth is in Cheshire East. The borders you are looking for on OS map are the 10 Districts (in your case Manchester and Stockport)..
MikeS

I can't find a comprehensive map online of where the border actually lies for GM. I am working in Handforth at the moment and I'm trying to work out if I'm in GM or Cheshire???