Hi All
Regarding nesting grebes in Wigan most of the sites that i can still get to visit where there was always Little Grebes now are diminishing fast there is now only one which i can guarentee will have them breeding on which is Whitley Res,
Why only this one i dont know is it because its land locked with no overland water course going to it so mink have not found a way in yet but time will tell.
The other reasons could be as posted before
Ideal conditions
1 Food
2 Nesting sites
3 No disturbance
4 No predators.
Long may this site reign as it is very disturbing to go to the other 7 sites and find that they have moved on or hopefully just deserted the areas for waters new and better so fingers crossed they might be back.

Cheers Jimmy

There are many experts who are already aware of the Mink etc at Pennington, but resources are small at the moment with many of the Countryside rangers being made redundant last year. Its also difficult on a site like Pennington with full public access, that is not like an rspb reserve or Woolston which are private sites and health and safety issues with the mass of public will come into place at Pennington. It will always be more difficult on a public park to do any culling of anything without public outcry as well.

Looking at other posts on here like the Astley Moss thread and talking to people over the last week, it seems a strange year in most places with very little even singing in many areas that are normally full of birds. This could be a year we remember for the wrong reasons ,the year the birds did not arrive and breed, lets hope the trend does not continue.

Hopefully with a dry weekend a few more species will start to breed and it will need to be monitored throughout the summer, to see the final outcome of Breeding Grebes as they will breed right into September if they have to. We can only hope things pick up in the next few weeks.



-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Saturday 1st of June 2013 07:03:49 AM

I called in at Penny a few days ago, the situation with the Great Crested Grebes then seemed to be, 1 pair paired on the main flash, 2 more couples amongst 10 birds in Rammies, with displaying being

seen. Another GCG was on a side pool and behaving as if it had a mate hidden in the reeds.

As stated the situation on the pool in front of the Teal Hide is bleak, with very birds present and the pool choked with algae.

One option perhaps is to see if Colin Wells, the long serving Dee Estuary warden, or/and a team from the RSPB can offer advice.

Perhaps they could present an action plan of sorts to the council, the RSPB as tremendous conservation credibility, and is respected?.

All councils are in a financial straightjacket at the moment, so they are only likely to pursue the cheapest option.

There is also the fact that many people find controlling pest species taboo, and publicised control is likely to attract a lot of flack.

Mink maybe a major factor in the decline in breeding birds, but there will be other important issues too.

Fish stocks are also predated by Mink, so will the angling club support control?.

There's no easy option guys, experts need to look at the whole Penny ecosystem and environment, and the council need the guts and finance to remedy the problem.

How much in weight of fish do cormorants eat a day?
Multiply this by the numbers at the flash & it is not sustainable.
I used to fish the river outlet from the flash & in winter it was full of Roach & other silver fish, now you don't see any or anyone fishing there.
So could it be a lack of a suitable food source for Grebes etc.

If traps are set for mink someone would have to go and check those traps on a daily basis which takes time & therefore money ( unless done on a voluntary basis), also who would pay for the traps?
What happened when they wanted to control Ruddy duck? I can't remember. If shooting was allowed then perhaps WLCT could allow a shooting club to spend a while on there controlling mink.

Mink almost always travel along watercourses so it's probable that animals from Woolston originally travelled up the River Glaze to the Flash. I was told many years ago that one of the farms bordering the River Glaze had Mink traps set on both banks so they may have picked up the majority of travelling Mink - maybe this trapping has now stopped?

Whilst Corvids don't have the impact on passerines that the likes of Songbird Survival would wish us to believe, they can have an effect on ground-nesting waders, as can foxes, etc. Burton Mere, for example, is having significant success using electric fencing to deter ground predators, though they're still having problems with Corvids I believe. I doubt Burton Mere has anywhere near the number of Magpies Pennington Flash has however!

Does anyone know the attitude of Wigan MBC towards predator control on their reserves? Many years ago there used to be Grey Squirrel shoots every year at Haigh Hall, but times have changed since then!

A couple of papers worth reading perhaps:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1474-919X.2008.00869.x/pdf

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tandf/bird/1997/00000044/00000003/443303

I think at Pennington its not just Mink,which I am pretty sure are well established at the flash now,there could be as many Mink at the flash as there were at woolston on there,as they are mainly night Hunters,and in the main will not be seen in the day unless they have large young to feed,but also At penny there are many Foxes,Magpies in abundance,Crows,etc along with the ever changing water levels leads to birds struggling to breed.

Many of the areas that had birds in abundance breeding now have nothing.I have not seen one sucsessful nest apart fron Canada geese on either the area at the front of Horrocks/Ramsdales Hide/Teal scrape.Something is definately happening to the Ground nesters.

Hopefully if we ever get a sustained period of calm/warm weather with little rain ,some birds will get late broods off,well thats my hope anyway,and as we know everything is very late this year.

As I said eirlier its difficult in my couple of hours at the weekend to get the feel of whats really happening,but anyone who goes daily would be able to monitor the situation better than me.




-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Thursday 30th of May 2013 09:57:39 AM

Colonisation of Britain is probably still ongoing: areas in the extreme north of Scotland appear not to have mink yet. Now that the mink is established, it raises awkward issues shared with a long list of other introduced species. The problem of how to deal with invasive introduced species is substantial, and strategic thinking is still in its infancy (see NNSS website). So as yet there is no official national strategy for managing mink, although the main interest groups under the leadership of the GWCT - are collaborating to create one. Fundamental questions include How much control of mink numbers is needed to preserve biodiversity? and How much control is possible, and what does it cost?

......................................................................

Have just taken this from the "Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust" website.

{The NNSS is Non-Native Species Secretariat (Defra)}

I think the only time there is any control is if the waterway is keepered or if there is any Water Vole conservation projects.

It's now over 20 years since I saw my first Mink on the River Tame and now they're seen regular on the river and canal ..... a real nuisance.

Roger.



-- Edited by Roger Baker 3 on Thursday 30th of May 2013 08:18:36 AM

-- Edited by Roger Baker 3 on Thursday 30th of May 2013 08:20:09 AM

Mike Passant wrote:

---

I should like to think that Natural England and DEFRA could justify their existence more meaningfully by shifting their attentions from our buzzards towards trying to eradicate a real pest species instead?

---

Don't be silly Mike that would actually make sense and do some good to our native wildlife!

I think the impact of Mink is worse than we realise though. I dont think its a coincidence that Little Grebes have vanished as a breeding bird at several local sites around here including Elton and Ringley. I am sure a family of Minks and I believe they are territorial could easily wipe out most of Penningtons nesting waterbirds! When I saw the American Black Tern at Pennington I watched a very large Mink swimming out of Rammies right in front of us.

I was at Woolston Eyes last Saturday morning and Dave Bowman told me they have caught 100 Mink in the last three years down there! Its only through funding that the controlling of Mink is able to continue and it would almost certainly need to continue for some time. The controlling of Mink at Woolston has surely been a factor why the Black-necked Grebe numbers have been maintained and I believe are now increasing. In addition, all the other waterbirds seem to be doing well there with healthy numbers of Pochard, Gadwall, Shelduck and both Grebe species.

Mike Passant wrote:

---

I've been pondering on the mink problem because I don't actually know what official policy is.
People regularly (and seemingly increasingly) report sightings, but does there exist an eradication policy at all, such as baiting and trapping in any shape or form followed up by a humane method of killing them?

I should like to think that Natural England and DEFRA could justify their existence more meaningfully by shifting their attentions from our buzzards towards trying to eradicate a real pest species instead?

---

As its Wigan Council run, would Wigan Councils Pest Control department not deal with it? Or would it be the usual answer of not enough resources or low priority?

I've been pondering on the mink problem because I don't actually know what official policy is.
People regularly (and seemingly increasingly) report sightings, but does there exist an eradication policy at all, such as baiting and trapping in any shape or form followed up by a humane method of killing them?

I should like to think that Natural England and DEFRA could justify their existence more meaningfully by shifting their attentions from our buzzards towards trying to eradicate a real pest species instead?

I know it's an obvious question, but could anything be done to control the Mink? Certainly "Teal" is a bleak place as it stands at present.

birds don't give up attempting to breed because there are predators in the area.

they don't breed because they can't get sufficient food to get themselves into breeding condition.
they don't breed if they can't find a mate to breed with.
they don't breed if they are suffering from too much disturbance.
they don't breed if the habitat is wrong.

so look to changes in fish population in the flash. i.e. native fish being replaced and outcompeted by large carp.
degradation in the area and quality of reedbeds.
increase in the numbers of boats on the lake at any particular time , with absence of refuges from disturbance by them.

Geoff Hargreaves wrote:

---

Not a shot across the bows,but a point to ponder,I,ve only looked at the Great Crested Grebe section of the last ten years county reports and to be fair Pennington Flash isn,t one the breeding hotspots(,this might be a quirk of the reporting system).My own experience so far this year is that the Horrocks birds are on track to produce the 4/5 broods expected(2 humbugs already on display) with another two sitting in view and one failure which was converted into a coots nest and then a black headedAnd this 'result' despite the water level being 10" above ideal.Mind on not a wader to grace the place

cheers geoff

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Good to see Horrock's is having a good breeding season for grebes.
Penny was once a hotspot for both Great crested grebes and Little grebe breeding, and not always recorded.its something that a place like penny ,as big as it is and a lot of people visiting, but few people record the breeding birds and most of us are guilty of that at penny , as we record the Dunlins and passage birds etc, but forget to record the common breeders.
Grebes used to nest in good numbers at penny, on average about 8 pairs per year, but the water levels and predation have meant only one or two successful broods in the last few years. Mink are present at penny in good number, one fisherman reported 10+ walking past him in a line by rammies ruck a couple of summers ago and this spring Mink have even been seen swimming across the channel and going under horrock's hide, which probably accounts for the lack of birds right at the front of Horrocks hide this year ,even though its been really suitable for waders for much of the spring passage period,very few birds have been on the sectin at the front of Horrocks Hide. foxes are regular as well. but all I know is we are getting very few if any waders or grebes nesting and very few wildfowl nesting this year and that is worrying for a site like penny. There was one pair of great crested grebes with a likely nest a few weeks ago that had lost it by this weekend .Little grebes once had a regular 10 pairs nesting ,but now there are none present at penny.
Its a bit difficult for me to monitor it really as I only get down to penny a few hours at the weekend when not working, and at that time the place is like Blackpool for people and its difficult to see what happening with the more secretive breeding species, so the people who are lucky enough to be able go every day are best suited to keep an eye on the situation.
Hopefully with a few long dry periods in June and July we will again get the couple of pairs with Humbugs, but overall the ground nesters at penny are having a very poor time, with little up to now. Nothing is even atempting to breed in areas like the teal scrape that is suitable for breeding yet not one nest of anything ,where there are normally at least a few pairs of lapwing breeding.
cheers John






-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 29th of May 2013 01:30:53 PM

Not a shot across the bows,but a point to ponder,I,ve only looked at the Great Crested Grebe section of the last ten years county reports and to be fair Pennington Flash isn,t one the breeding hotspots(,this might be a quirk of the reporting system).My own experience so far this year is that the Horrocks birds are on track to produce the 4/5 broods expected(2 humbugs already on display) with another two sitting in view and one failure which was converted into a coots nest and then a black headedAnd this 'result' despite the water level being 10" above ideal.Mind on not a wader to grace the place

cheers geoff

I visited Pennington last week and as I was walking round a huge Mink ran straight out infront of me. It was bold as brass and came from the canal down the embankment across the path and into the scrub. Just feet away from me and my dog. I have visited Pennington on a regular basis but have never seen a Mink there before. This was quite a big animal for a mink. If there's one there may be more. Hope this helps and maybe gives a small piece to the puzzle.

Quite a few sites held pairs of Great Created Grebes with half grown young well into the autumn last year, Budworth Mere being one example, there's still time yet for a few pairs to settle down.

Grebes are still being seen off the coast at Hilbre etc, too, so hopefully a few pairs will settle to breed by early summer.

One thing I did notice last year at Woolston was GC Grebes carrying fish onto No 3 Bed that they had either caught in the Mersey or ship canal, but a fish shortage may of been unique to this site?.

Lapwings seemed to be doing quite well near Redesmere, with 12 youngsters guarded by adults in one field, and Oystercatchers seem to be brooding in lots of places too.

The RSPB staff at Marshside have said there is a real problem with foxes there, hence breeding Black Headed Gulls crammed like sardines in a tin, on the small island at Sandgrounders.

That does'nt mean foxes have become over prolific everywhere though, although they seem to confident in patrolling the very centre of the Burton Wetland/IMF complex this year, so they perhaps

there getting bolder?.

Thanks to John for posting his concern regarding the situation at Penny, I'll take note of the Great Crested Grebe situation everywhere now, this is a sad yet fascinating scenario to observe.

It's often what you don't see when out birding, thats much more important than the birds that are recorded. The birds that should be there, but are not.

This year has been extremely eventful regarding the weather with many migrants appearing later than average and some in much lower numbers than normal. House Martin numbers are surely down is one example. The breeding birds (or lack of them) at Pennington maybe a response to this; hopefully. One thing is for sure, it is very concerning the lack of activity from the hides there. I'm sure I used to see Little ringed Plovers all over there without trying. At other sites I see breeding activity with various species including nests, eggs, young and even fledged young that does suggest that something is wrong at Pennington. Are there any Oystercatchers on eggs there? I've been a few times recently and don't recall one. I've not seen a single Mink though whilst out and about whilst seeing many Deer, Weasels, Hares, Rabbits and so. I'm not saying they're not a problem though and suspect that they are having some kind of impact, probably severe in the case of the great crested grebes and other waterbirds you mention. Changing water levels this year will also impact but the changes at Pennington since I last used to visit eight years ago are really dramatic. Some of the hides here, New Hide for example, I remember used to be full of activity but now seems devoid of much of that. It will be a shame if predators are to blame for this but I hold hope that things will improve with the weather.

colin davies wrote:

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It's interesting that you should mention Great crested Grebes asleep in the middle, because this year for the first time I've noticed unusually large numbers of non-breeding grebes at my local patch, Eccleston Mere, in St Helens. The mere is smaller than the flash, and has never had the same numbers of birds, but we usually have 4 - 5 pairs. This year we are down to 2 - 3 pairs, yet there are at least 5 pairs displaying but showing no sign of breeding. They just stay permanently in the deeper water, well away from the breeding areas, and mainly asleep. I've never seen this before.

Water levels have fluctuated quite dramatically at the mere this year, not so much because of rainfall, I've heard it's because of water level problems at nearby Prescot Resrvoirs. That may partly account for it, but even so, why are there 5 pairs on the mere making no attempt to breed? There appears to be loads of fish suitable for grebes, and even if the mere is not suitable for breeding this year, why don't they move somewhere else? I don't know the answer but it's very strange to see, and very worrying if you're experiencing the same at Pennington Flash.

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I have seen the same at Houghton green pool at Warrington 14 Adult great crested grebe asleep all day in the middle of the pool, normally at this time of year there are a couple of pairs attempting to breed, although they never succeed at the pool,its just a little sad seeing these birds seemingly giving up and just sleeping all day, seems very strange .But at penny its been a drastic downward trend in breeding birds that just seems to get worse year on year, and my worry is as all these adult grebes Die of old age ,there will be few young birds to replace them, and agree water levels are a problem at penny, one minute very high and flooded ,a week later massive areas of Dry land.

It's interesting that you should mention Great crested Grebes asleep in the middle, because this year for the first time I've noticed unusually large numbers of non-breeding grebes at my local patch, Eccleston Mere, in St Helens. The mere is smaller than the flash, and has never had the same numbers of birds, but we usually have 4 - 5 pairs. This year we are down to 2 - 3 pairs, yet there are at least 5 pairs displaying but showing no sign of breeding. They just stay permanently in the deeper water, well away from the breeding areas, and mainly asleep. I've never seen this before.

Water levels have fluctuated quite dramatically at the mere this year, not so much because of rainfall, I've heard it's because of water level problems at nearby Prescot Resrvoirs. That may partly account for it, but even so, why are there 5 pairs on the mere making no attempt to breed? There appears to be loads of fish suitable for grebes, and even if the mere is not suitable for breeding this year, why don't they move somewhere else? I don't know the answer but it's very strange to see, and very worrying if you're experiencing the same at Pennington Flash.

I agree John. It does seem very strange given all the available habitat at Penny Flash that there are so few numbers of breeding water birds and waders. Mink are definitely part of the problem as I saw one myself a couple of years back carrying an egg. I know Leigh Ornithological Society are trying to get an idea of Mink numbers at the moment but I've not heard what any results are or what the plan of action is.
Weather must also be a factor too given the very poor spring we've had so far. The water levels at Penny must also be considered given how quickly they rise after any substantial rainfall.

A worrying trend at penny flash that I am finding is whether its the weather/climate change or Mink/Foxes etc ,but the trend at penny seems to be worse each year for breeding birds, its seems strange to see 30 adult great crested grebes asleep in the middle of Rammies with no signs of having any intentions of breeding, and as far as I can see not one breeding pair of great crested at the moment, where there was not many years ago a dozen pairs. Not one single pair of Little grebe, where again there was once a dozen pairs breeding. Not one single breeding wader including Lapwing. I have only seen a few small broods of Mallard, that after a day disappear as the predators strike.
The Teal scrape should be renamed the Magpie scrape, as there is not a single breeding bird on it. All over It seems a worrying trend, I am seeing this also at other sites. It seems that many species have just given up and either know there is not enough food for their young, or that if they breed the predators will just take there young and eggs. Something major is going on with breeding birds at the moment. I hope other sites are fairing better, or is it only me that's pessimistic about the local breeding population of particularly waders, Ducks and Grebes.
:(