Unfortunately looking at current plans to basicly upgrade all the current track between Wigan and Leeds via Warrington and Manchester would mean the railways across the mosslands would also be affected as the tracks would have to be replaced to take the high speed trains by the looks of it.
The "Mosslands" N of the M62 might not take a hit from HS3.
I have a couple of friends in the Rail Industry; Manchester - Newton - Liverpool is already upgraded to electric (i.e. North of Chat Moss) pretty much as can be due to various other structures and the flat land geometry. Minimal stations on route so the current "fast" line Manchester Liverpool (and no intent to add any which is a shame as Culcheth would be a good provincial commuter town)..
The Birchwood line is being left to languish a bit at the moment. Services now split at Warrington to keep reliability up as track is poor / constrained by old structures. 27 stations at max for stoppers. Expresses removed to Newton line won't be coming back to this line.
The dedicated express "HS3" line (and all I've been provided with is a bad schematic off BBC news) may actually go Stalybridge - Stockport - Alty via existing freight lines or briefly onto Manchester HS 2 Airport Interchange spur North of Rosterne then near Little Bollington Branch off separately - Lymm - Warrington Arpley / BQ Low Level (a reinstated CLC line on Trans Pennine Trial - Woolston Eyes will be 1/2 mile North) Latchford (where the current freight sidings end) - Fiddlers Ferry - join Liverpool WCML at St Helens. Unfortunately for the burghers of Lymm and Grappenhall this will not give these London house price suburbs a direct route to London as no stations are planned apart from the Manchester Interchange near the airport, so these will be "fast" Leeds / Manchester Interchange / Liverpool services.
I reckon I've more chance of seeing a Belted Kingfisher 30 miles from home in my lifetime than this ever happening..
.....oh., hold on!
Andy Slee said
Sat Feb 19 11:10 PM, 2022
I'm an ex Birchwood/ Gorse Covert Resident of 20 year but still work in the area 2 days a month.
Also raise with your local councillor. (It used to be Russ Bowden or Nigel Reeves I think that were the most pro-active ones in amongst all at the Gorse Covert side, unfortunately I remember Culcheth Councillors pushed the route away from the old trackbed through the Linear Park so seems we are struck with the new route, more obtrusive to wildlife, less compulsory purchase to homeowners?).
There seems to be a weird issue where a motorway service station M62 may get built (or planning permission approved) at J11 and then part of the land compulsory purchased to build HS2. Warrington Council not contesting planning permission appeal to Government level re the Service station. Suggestion locally in Gorse Covert this may be a ploy to get land value up from farmland -> utility land, then bank the higher payments for utility compulsory purchase.
Going to be on a descending embankment at this point (when looking at the maps, don't just look at the 2D top down route, the embankments to get over the Ship Canal and down again are huge and will stop a lot of East-West small birds field to field movement. The embankment is over 10 metres at some points past the East end of Risley IV Landfill.
-- Edited by Andy Slee on Saturday 19th of February 2022 11:10:58 PM
Rob Smith said
Fri Feb 18 7:48 PM, 2022
Yes I'm waiting for a reply from Cheshire LRC so we shall see?
Ian McKerchar said
Wed Feb 16 8:19 PM, 2022
Rob Smith wrote:
My concern from these posts is that HS2 have gone to GMLRC/GMEU for data on the wildlife of Silver Lane about a site that is actually in Cheshire, so have they also accessed data from Record/Rodis or bypassed it?
The easiest answer is to contact the Cheshire County Recorder or the relevant person at CAWOS to check Rob.
Out of interest too, caution should be used when entering the records of other's unless their permission has been sought, which I'm sure it has, as this can create duplicate records within recording systems and animosity from those observers who either input them themselves or indeed don't want them inputted at all
Rob Smith said
Wed Feb 16 7:57 PM, 2022
I wasn't aware of this stream until now but for information & reference.
As someone who has been monitoring the wildlife of Silver Lane since 2000, I have always made a point of submitting bird (and other wildlife) records for Silver Lane (covering the period 2003 & 2021) to Record via Rodis but also to CAWOS & more recently to GMLRC. The majority of records were my own but also include other birdwatchers observations where relevant/interesting or confirmed. How much notice is/was taken off this data is anyone guess & by recent results not at all!
My concern from these posts is that HS2 have gone to GMLRC/GMEU for data on the wildlife of Silver Lane about a site that is actually in Cheshire, so have they also accessed data from Record/Rodis or bypassed it?
JOHN TYMON said
Tue Feb 1 10:12 AM, 2022
Unfortunately looking at current plans to basicly upgrade all the current track between Wigan and Leeds via Warrington and Manchester would mean the railways across the mosslands would also be affected as the tracks would have to be replaced to take the high speed trains by the looks of it.
JOHN TYMON said
Mon Jan 31 11:18 AM, 2022
All the same signs have gone up at junk 11 and all along the paths at sl pools unfortunately if it happens the whole of the site will be devastated and at least 3 of the 4 pools affected or filled in. :(
It's odd because even the nearest distance to the proposed HS2 link route is >1 km from Little Woolden Moss & Cadishead Moss, and the other side of Glaze Brook
The route cuts across the E end of Silver Lane Pools (Culcheth) and long the W side of Holcroft Moss, where a species of spider (Sibianor larae) was discovered in 2018 by Rich Burkmar. It's the first record for the UK, but presumably could reside in related nearby mosses. HS2 could damage the hydrology of these reserves. Apparently, Cheshire WT are involved in discussions
The route also runs along Culcheth's very popular Linear Park, and over the remnants of Culcheth's former railway station
It should be noted that this section of track is not actually high speed - with the bends in the route traffic would necessarily be relatively slow. It was originally intended to connect with a new overnight depot at Golborne. Currently (as I understand it), the depot is relocated to Crewe but the link railway stays in plan
Local politicians here in Culcheth are fighting HS2
Ian McKerchar said
Sun Jan 30 11:09 PM, 2022
Originally posted today by Michael Hood:
Little Woolden Moss
HS2 NOTICES - potential COMPULSORY PURCHASE dated 27 January 2022
All three public footpath entrances (from Ringing Pits Farm side, Twelve Yards Rd end & Moss Lodge Farm side) had official laminated notices attached to the entrance - only the one on the Twelve Yards Rd entrance appeared to be undamaged, the other 2 had been vandalised. There was no obvious notice on the Glaze Brook end of the reserve where the public footpath comes in. From the date of the notice I presume they've only just gone up so the relevant people may not yet be aware of them.
It's rather unclear - it looks like the reserve is in Schedule A which means it can be compulsorily purchased, but the proposed route goes to the West of the B5212. However the whole reserve is on the Government's website as a Safeguarded Area (i.e. subject to compulsory purchase so you can't change its usage, etc) even though it's well away from the route. Is it in these schedules to preserve its "usage" as a nature reserve? - which sounds unlikely (to me) but would be great. This would also mean that all of the non-reporting part of this post is a false alarm, in which case, my apologies.
Photos of some pages of the notice attached - sorry about the up-side-down schedule
I also notice (with a bit of dismay), that they're extending the made up perimeter path, thereby increasing the amount of path where everything can hear you coming a mile off and so ensure that they're nowhere in sight. Is this for disabled wheelchair access, great in theory but there will be nothing for them to see.
-- Edited by Michael Hood on Sunday 30th of January 2022 10:41:54 PM
Thanks Andy for bringing to our attention the threat to Silver Lane Pools and other wildlife sites in Warrington, Salford and Wigan. Whilst I can't comment specifically on the supply of records from Silver Lane Pools to HS2, I am fairly certain that David is correct and that HS2 will have requested data for the Cheshire section of the route from the Cheshire Local Record Centre RECORD and Cheshire and Wirral Ornithological Society CAWOS So anyone who has records from Silver Lane Pools, will hopefully submit them to CAWOS and RECORD, assuming they haven't already done so.
The situation in Greater Manchester is as follows: All records submitted to the GM Bird Recording Group are shared with the GM Ecology Unit (GMEU) who has entered into a three year data supply agreement with HS2 which allows them to share the data with their sub-contractors, including ecological consultants working on behalf of HS2. In 2017 GMEU provided HS2 with 80k + records of Schedule 1, Red and Amber-listed species going back to 2008 from a 5-km buffer along the two high speed lines which will pass through GM. It is thanks to all the recorders who have taken the time to submit their records to GMBRG over the past ten years that HS2 now has a clear picture of the Schedule 1 and Birds of Conservation Concern (Red and Amber-listed) species that occur along the two routes and their breeding status. GMEU are about to provide HS2 with an update to include new records received since July 2017. The good news is that bird recorders have submitted an additional 44k records from across Greater Manchester to GMBRG between July 2017 and August 2018 which have been processed into the GMBRG database and shared with GMEU. Whilst perhaps only 10-15% of these will fall within the HS2 search area, the rest will be put to good use in supporting the selection of Sites of Biological Importance, as David has eluded to in his comments. I'll post separately about this shortly, as it is important that recorders understand how their records contribute to maintaining the selection of these sites.
If anyone has records from within five kilometres of the HS2 routes in Greater Manchester which they haven't shared as yet with the GM Bird Recording Group, or the GM Local Record Centre, then there is still time to do so. Probably the easiest way of submitting records is to click on the GMLRC logo at the bottom of this page which will take you to the Simple Record Form. If you prefer to send your records to GMBRG the options for doing so are explained on Manchester Birding Website Please get in touch if you need any advice.
Yes all the regulars are aware it will be the end of another patch for us ,they have already set up the building by the motorway ready for the workers to use when building it,why they couldn't use the existing disused railway line rather than cutting right through perfect wildlife habitat is beyond me ,but HS2 Has kept a lot of people in wages for many years right right from the office bods in London ,to mp's ,lawyers right up to ecologists who survey the area along the route ,some of which are not capable of doing thier survey ,I met 2 surveying it last year who hadn't spotted the Black Necked Grebe on the west pool or the 20 pairs of skylark breeding on the landfill,I told them they they had better add 20 species to the list they had for the morning as they had missed 3 schedule 1 species ,Black Necked Grebe and Little Ringed plover ,Kingfisher . Instead of bringing people in from the midlands to survey an area they don't know they would be better paying the patchers on site who know what the site holds to get a true picture ,but I daupt they want that.
I agree with all your points there, John, but I thought they were obliged to obtain records from the local ecology unit / bird recording group, in this case presumably Cheshire. I must admit, once I bumped into a couple of ecologists doing a survey of one of my local SBIs, and they described it as more of a walk past Survey. When I asked why they didnt carry binoculars, they said they concentrated mainly on plants, as they were easier to identify because they didnt move about.
Im not trying to criticise the Local Ecology Unit here, because I do know that they use records from local birders to assess SBI status (and are as affected as the rest of us by austerity measures. It is more to demonstrate that there are varying degrees of surveillance techniques. I am sure the surveyors you bumped into were being paid for doing much more than a walk past.
Yes all the regulars are aware it will be the end of another patch for us ,they have already set up the building by the motorway ready for the workers to use when building it,why they couldn't use the existing disused railway line rather than cutting right through perfect wildlife habitat is beyond me ,but HS2 Has kept a lot of people in wages for many years right right from the office bods in London ,to mp's ,lawyers right up to ecologists who survey the area along the route ,some of which are not capable of doing thier survey ,I met 2 surveying it last year who hadn't spotted the Black Necked Grebe on the west pool or the 20 pairs of skylark breeding on the landfill,I told them they they had better add 20 species to the list they had for the morning as they had missed 3 schedule 1 species ,Black Necked Grebe and Little Ringed plover ,Kingfisher . Instead of bringing people in from the midlands to survey an area they don't know they would be better paying the patchers on site who know what the site holds to get a true picture ,but I daupt they want that.
It will rip the heart out of the birding in south lancs Pennington flash rixton Riskey moss lightshaws sssi all will be either directly destroyed or indirectly by disturbance. I also heard an alarming comment by a minister that they might start it north to south to boost construction in the north. Enjoy your birding and green space while you can
John Doherty said
Sun Nov 3 8:42 AM, 2013
I tell you what will improve the economy - slashing the prices and putting cash in our pockets, but of course it doesn't work like that - and of course 'contracts for the boys' could never be excercised in that case, which I suspect will if it's built - I heard we have the most expensive (to travel on) rail network in the world and as someone who relies upon it to do the large majority of my long-distance (non-GM) birding, I feel it. Like TW says, 2hours 10 mins - what's the fuss, that's quick enough - I just resent seeing such a cost such an upheaval for no real benefit- when there are far far better things to spend money on
-- Edited by John Doherty on Sunday 3rd of November 2013 08:43:35 AM
Tim Wilcox said
Sun Nov 3 6:13 AM, 2013
It only takes 2 hours 10 minutes to London. It 's quite quick enough. The nuisance is not being able to a catch a Saver train back till 7pm. That's the problem. HS2 will be dragging 6 or more empty 1st class carriages and half-filled 2nd class carriages up and down the country for our billions. I've been on the fastest trains in Europe: most recently Paris-Strasbourg line where the World record of 330mph was set and it's fantastic (but take your sea-seakness pills!) but it was built with EU money in a country which could easily build the right tracks down the route that took the troops to the trenches in the First World War.
Nick Green said
Sat Nov 2 11:53 PM, 2013
I wouldn't worry about it. Its never going to be built.
What is the estimated costs upto now? over 40 billion.. That means 80 billion then! Who is going to pay for this, the country has no money, the national debt is over 1000 billion and rising!
The railway system is already perfectly adequate. Who really needs to get to London a few minutes sooner.
Pie in the sky
Craig Higson said
Sat Nov 2 8:13 PM, 2013
Nick Green wrote:
I wouldn't worry about it. Its never going to be built.
What is the estimated costs upto now? over 40 billion.. That means 80 billion then! Who is going to pay for this, the country has no money, the national debt is over 1000 billion and rising!
The railway system is already perfectly adequate. Who really needs to get to London a few minutes sooner.
Pie in the sky
I do tend to agree Nick. If you look back how our communications ability has improved over the last 15-20 years ( which is about as long as it will take to build this thing) we have now got video calling on mobile phones, face time/ Skype webinars etc etc. I reckon in another 10 years there'll be something amazing like holographic meetings which means no need to travel to London. What it really needs is an investment in rolling stock and the lines. But, like I said before, this is as much about the add ons as the actual line itself. All based on our poor economic model of building houses.
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Saturday 2nd of November 2013 08:14:12 PM
Tony Coatsworth said
Sat Nov 2 6:38 PM, 2013
I've got 4 meetings in London in November for work, so anything that speeds up the journey would be good for me. However at £240 a return trip, it's no wonder electricity bills are going up. If the government wanted to be green, DECC should move to Birmingham or somewhere more convenient for those companies north of Watford.
However I'll probably be retired by the time the thing is built.
John Doherty said
Thu Oct 31 2:16 PM, 2013
I don't think I've ever been opposed to a more useless thing than HS2 - do these people in gov. not understand??? The country doesn't want it! Grrr
Craig Higson said
Thu Oct 31 8:18 AM, 2013
Sarfraz Hayat wrote:
Can someone explain to me how the HS2 is supposed to benefit the North? People can barely afford to pay train tickets nowadays so how will they afford these new HS2 tickets? One thing amazes me is the Lib Dems who claim to be the most green party out of the major three support it.
Most likely because wherever they create new 'depots' to service the line there will be jobs, and then houses and then the economy will be just super don't you know.
Well that's the theory. Oh, and don't worry about any environmental damage - the economy is king!
Greenest Government ever I believe.
Sarfraz Hayat said
Thu Oct 31 8:10 AM, 2013
Can someone explain to me how the HS2 is supposed to benefit the North? People can barely afford to pay train tickets nowadays so how will they afford these new HS2 tickets? One thing amazes me is the Lib Dems who claim to be the most green party out of the major three support it.
Went to the public meeting last night presented by andy burnham the labour MP.
It was packed and great concern to the local commnity. It's not just hs2 but housing as well and there was talk of building a station on the hs2 spur which in turn would make it attractive to commuters and hence demand fr more housing developments. Most of the green belt in Lowton is under now under severe threat of developmet.
The wildlife and green space we now take for granted might be a memory in 20 yeas.
Bill Myerscough said
Sun Feb 3 10:38 PM, 2013
This article in todays Independent on Sunday and specifically the impact on wildlife.
This Government is bonkers! Most of their policies appear to be aimed at aiding the rich to impriove the economy. Personally I think the money would be better spent on families who are struggling to pay necessities such as mortgages, bills and improving public transport for every day users. Having travelled peak times a couple of times over the last 6 months to London (work paid for it) I could not believe how empty the carriages were. That is no way to make money!
6.8.7. Although designed to limit direct impacts on the Grade 2* listed Lightshaw Hall, the depot near Golborne would adversely affect the setting of this building, which would remain within the depot site. It would also adversely affect the setting of the Grade 2 listed Byrom Hall.
Margaret
It's nonsense as the plan I looked at clearly shows the line running right through the hall. Anyway a disaster for the area regardless of whether they knock the hall down or not. And by the way Grade 2* means very little to determined developers. In this case HM Govt.
-- Edited by Tim Wilcox on Thursday 31st of January 2013 10:33:15 PM
Lightshaw Hall is at the left of the plan, with the track between it and the flash. The large roughly rectangular blue area (extended a lot longer to the other end of Lightshaw Lane) is 'The Proposed HS2 Rolling Stock Maintenance Depot' - as you can see, Lightshaw Hall lies within this shaded area.
Balmer's Farm will not be all that close to the line itself, it is the depot which will their problem.
As you say, a disaster to the area, whatever they do, and Grade 2* listing means not a jot.
Margaret
-- Edited by Margaret Wilkinson on Friday 1st of February 2013 07:01:46 AM
6.8.7. Although designed to limit direct impacts on the Grade 2* listed Lightshaw Hall, the depot near Golborne would adversely affect the setting of this building, which would remain within the depot site. It would also adversely affect the setting of the Grade 2 listed Byrom Hall.
Margaret
Margaret Wilkinson said
Fri Feb 1 12:06 AM, 2013
Tim Wilcox wrote:
This is the link to the maps on the Government website
Lowton to Bamfurlong pdf. map 52202 shows the route going through Lightshaw Hall - right through the Hall! This is to be replaced with a giant marshaling/repair yard. It then loops on round knocking its way through Windy Bank Farm and Balmer's Farm to connect with the existing line.
Tim - not strictly true - the line itself runs between Lightshaw Hall and Lightshaw Flash, not right through the Hall. As I said in my earlier post, the Hall will be preserved in the middle of the depot! Margaret
Pete Astles said
Thu Jan 31 10:46 PM, 2013
I agree Simon video conferencing is very advanced now what it will be like in 30 years time we can only imagine. So the time off the journeys to London is hard to understand. I can understand increased freight but that will not need expensive high speed lines. The cost of hs2 is £516k for each person in the uk
6.8.7. Although designed to limit direct impacts on the Grade 2* listed Lightshaw Hall, the depot near Golborne would adversely affect the setting of this building, which would remain within the depot site. It would also adversely affect the setting of the Grade 2 listed Byrom Hall.
Margaret
It's nonsense as the plan I looked at clearly shows the line running right through the hall. Anyway a disaster for the area regardless of whether they knock the hall down or not. And by the way Grade 2* means very little to determined developers. In this case HM Govt.
-- Edited by Tim Wilcox on Thursday 31st of January 2013 10:33:15 PM
simon ghilks said
Thu Jan 31 6:15 PM, 2013
"Is it seriously worth £32,000,000,000 to shave off 40 minutes down to London for a few rich business men, with all the associated destruction to people, wildlife and the environment"
Our leaders have previous on this, have a look at the wide expanses of the oh so peacefull M6 Toll where 90% of traffic is priced into the continuing traffic jams on the M6 proper. A national scandal.
Why aren't we looking at ways to enable people to travel less for work. Job swap or something like that. The M60 is chocker at rush hour, probably with people passing each other going in the opposite direction to do exactly the same job. The worlds gone mad.
Information technology will hopefully end the need for so much travel and kill this HS2 before it gets off the drawing board.
Tim Wilcox said
Thu Jan 31 5:24 PM, 2013
This is the link to the maps on the Government website
Lowton to Bamfurlong pdf. map 52202 shows the route going through Lightshaw Hall - right through the Hall! This is to be replaced with a giant marshaling/repair yard. It then loops on round knocking its way through Windy Bank Farm and Balmer's Farm to connect with the existing line.
The pdf. map covering Davenport Green is under Winterbottom to Ardwick 52805 It runs up beside Sunbank Wood and anyone's house on Sunbank Lane that isn't being knocked down by the World Logistics Hub will be by HS2. It all explains why the business park was forced through planning as there is to be a major new HS2 station right next door
James Walsh said
Thu Jan 31 4:07 PM, 2013
Is it seriously worth £32,000,000,000 to shave off 40 minutes down to London for a few rich business men, with all the associated destruction to people, wildlife and the environment at a time when local council budgets have been stripped and can't even stretch the budget to fund wardens for the Mersey Valley for example? That strikes me as stealing from the poor to feed the rich.
-- Edited by Henry Cook on Monday 28th of January 2013 09:31:54 PM
Well said Henry, I thought that was the Tories main policy, stealing from the poor to feed the rich
Pete Astles said
Thu Jan 31 8:12 AM, 2013
Ian
The government is desperate to be seen to be doing something on he economy. If its flawed so what? it's only public money and none of today's politicans will be accountable for it in 20 years so from their perspective what is not to like about HS2?
Peter
Margaret Wilkinson said
Thu Jan 31 5:55 AM, 2013
Has anyone looked at the route and plans? There are plans for a huge maintenance depot running most of the way down Lightshaw Lane, to Slag Lane near Pennington Flash at the other end. Two recently converted Grade 2* listed barns (one not yet complete) will be demolished to make way for the depot. Lightshaw Hall itself, a Grade 2* listed building, will be retained, sat within the depot itself - won't it look nice! I hope the birds at Lightshaw and Pennington flashes get used to the construction work and the eventual sound of the trains.
-- Edited by Margaret Wilkinson on Thursday 31st of January 2013 06:09:05 AM
Ian Woosey said
Thu Jan 31 4:47 AM, 2013
Paul Wilson wrote:
Not so sure having a major rail route would have devastating consequences to wildlife.
The imact on wildlife sites in the North, and in particular our region, is now beginning to become apparent:
We already have a national rail infastructure. What is the point of HS2 ? Somebody, please explain ?
Craig Higson said
Wed Jan 30 4:11 AM, 2013
At £300 for a per booked return ticket to London (standard) on Friday this week (from Crewe) I wonder why it's underused?!
Mike Price said
Wed Jan 30 2:52 AM, 2013
I am neither pro nor anti the HS2 (mainly because I haven't educated myself well enough to decide) but I do question the necessity of the high speed rail link, Concorde was retired over 10 years ago for a number of reason, one of those reasons was the dwindling demand, put simply it couldn't compete with using modern technology when there was a need to be attend meetings etc. I wonder how important this rail link will be in another 20 years if technology continues at the current rate.
Craig Higson said
Wed Jan 30 2:42 AM, 2013
Paul Hurst wrote:
Henry Cook wrote:
It will also see my local patch, which i've birded daily for a decade, concreted over; an area currently home to breeding Grasshopper Warblers, Lesser Whitethroats, hunting Barn Owl, Great Crested Newts and a good array of open meadow species.
If you can prove there are Great Crested Newts on your patch, then by law they cannot destroy the habitat. Check http://www.jprenvironmental.co.uk/great_crested_newt_endangered_species_profile.htm And http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/protecting-wildlife/legislation-licenses-protect-wildlife/species-protected-eulaw/
Cheers, Paul
Hmm. Unfortunately that isn't strictly true Paul. As long as they get a licence and provide mitigation they can destroy GCN habitat.
Mike Chorley said
Tue Jan 29 7:18 PM, 2013
In a piece on this in tonight's BBC NorthWest news programme they mentioned that HS1 is currently operating at 1/3 of estimated capacity. So it looks as though the demand for this isn't as great as has been claimed.
-- Edited by Mike Chorley on Wednesday 30th of January 2013 05:18:54 PM
Doc Brewster said
Tue Jan 29 4:50 PM, 2013
Pete Astles wrote:
I read this week talk of it going through tatton park.
Enjoy our wild countryside whie you can
The latest proposed route goes close to Tatton Park but misses it (see https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69058/hs2-msg-mr0-zz-dr-rt-71001.pdf ). But the route isn't 100% rubber stamped yet so it could encroach closer to or on the park in the end. I do agree that we have reason to worry about all this. The impact is going to be huge & looking at areas near to where I live where I have done bird surveys or just birded, I fear for lots of major habitat destruction with birds such as Yellowhammers, Tree Sparrows, Linnets, and other farmland species being hit. A farmer I know nearby is having it through his land if the proposed route goes ahead & he is one of the most environmentally conscious farmers I know. The link with Manchester here is strong as my wife, who lectures at Manchester Uni, takes groups of students out to his farm every year for her course. I fear all that will be lost if he has to give up his farm as it is now, not only the loss of his land & its wildlife value but the priceless knowledge he passes on to students every year.
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Tuesday 29th of January 2013 04:51:55 PM
Henry Cook said
Tue Jan 29 5:48 AM, 2013
Paul Hurst wrote:
Henry Cook wrote:
It will also see my local patch, which i've birded daily for a decade, concreted over; an area currently home to breeding Grasshopper Warblers, Lesser Whitethroats, hunting Barn Owl, Great Crested Newts and a good array of open meadow species.
If you can prove there are Great Crested Newts on your patch, then by law they cannot destroy the habitat. Check http://www.jprenvironmental.co.uk/great_crested_newt_endangered_species_profile.htm And http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/protecting-wildlife/legislation-licenses-protect-wildlife/species-protected-eulaw/
Cheers, Paul
The environmental consultants conducting the EIA will have to locate and 'mitigate' for the loss of habitat, but I will happily inform the consultation on the newts presence. It concerns me however, during current projects to translocate newts in the Manchester Airport area, that capture methods appeared far from effective and will consign some to an illegal fate. I am highly sceptical on the success of translocating newts in this area overall as mitigation ponds have not been planned out in the short-term or managed in the long-term allowing vegetation succession to take over.
Paul Hurst said
Tue Jan 29 5:34 AM, 2013
Henry Cook wrote:
It will also see my local patch, which i've birded daily for a decade, concreted over; an area currently home to breeding Grasshopper Warblers, Lesser Whitethroats, hunting Barn Owl, Great Crested Newts and a good array of open meadow species.
If you can prove there are Great Crested Newts on your patch, then by law they cannot destroy the habitat. Check http://www.jprenvironmental.co.uk/great_crested_newt_endangered_species_profile.htm And http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/protecting-wildlife/legislation-licenses-protect-wildlife/species-protected-eulaw/
Cheers, Paul
Joe Wynn said
Tue Jan 29 4:35 AM, 2013
I wonder whether we can extend the debate to our own county's Metrolink extension plans. I hadn't been out to the Mersey since the new bridge was built and last week was struck by quite how much space the new bridge was taking up and how it seems to be cutting through some habitat in which a few years back I had photographed Blackcap and Whitethroat. I've always been broadly in favour of public transport on both a personal level (I use it quite a lot) but also it seems to be better environmentally with the whole less cars on the road less emissions argument, but looking at this i'm not so sure its quite the good idea its cracked up to be...
Paul Wilson said
Tue Jan 29 2:28 AM, 2013
Not so sure having a major rail route would have devastating consequences to wildlife. I will remain open-minded about this plan. There can be advantages to wildlife with a plan like this: less traffic on our roads - less polution; less risk of losing countryside to housing development- who wants a house right next to a main line? etc. Also, railways can provide good wildlife corridoors.
You just need to look at Potteric Carr to see that having a main line running through a nature reserve is not necessarily a bad thing.
less risk of losing countryside to housing development- who wants a house right next to a main line?
Unfortunately for some Paul (including myself), the railway line is coming by houses which are already there. For these people there will be no choice but to live next to the main line, especially as house prices will fall drastically in the immediate vicinity with no-one wanting to live there as you admit. For other's it's worse and are going to get turfed out of their home to make way.
It will also see my local patch, which i've birded daily for a decade, concreted over; an area currently home to breeding Grasshopper Warblers, Lesser Whitethroats, hunting Barn Owl, Great Crested Newts and a good array of open meadow species.
It is easy to remain open minded if the line isn't going to affect you directly in a negative way. I am not so optomistic!
Is it seriously worth £32,000,000,000 to shave off 40 minutes down to London for a few rich business men, with all the associated destruction to people, wildlife and the environment at a time when local council budgets have been stripped and can't even stretch the budget to fund wardens for the Mersey Valley for example? That strikes me as stealing from the poor to feed the rich.
-- Edited by Henry Cook on Monday 28th of January 2013 09:31:54 PM
Pete Astles said
Sun Jan 27 10:04 PM, 2013
I read this week talk of it going through tatton park.
Looks like the Golbourne spare has been scrapped
https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/news/20191712.controversial-hs2-golborne-link-scrapped-government/
The "Mosslands" N of the M62 might not take a hit from HS3.
I have a couple of friends in the Rail Industry; Manchester - Newton - Liverpool is already upgraded to electric (i.e. North of Chat Moss) pretty much as can be due to various other structures and the flat land geometry. Minimal stations on route so the current "fast" line Manchester Liverpool (and no intent to add any which is a shame as Culcheth would be a good provincial commuter town)..
The Birchwood line is being left to languish a bit at the moment. Services now split at Warrington to keep reliability up as track is poor / constrained by old structures. 27 stations at max for stoppers. Expresses removed to Newton line won't be coming back to this line.
The dedicated express "HS3" line (and all I've been provided with is a bad schematic off BBC news) may actually go Stalybridge - Stockport - Alty via existing freight lines or briefly onto Manchester HS 2 Airport Interchange spur North of Rosterne then near Little Bollington Branch off separately - Lymm - Warrington Arpley / BQ Low Level (a reinstated CLC line on Trans Pennine Trial - Woolston Eyes will be 1/2 mile North) Latchford (where the current freight sidings end) - Fiddlers Ferry - join Liverpool WCML at St Helens. Unfortunately for the burghers of Lymm and Grappenhall this will not give these London house price suburbs a direct route to London as no stations are planned apart from the Manchester Interchange near the airport, so these will be "fast" Leeds / Manchester Interchange / Liverpool services.
I reckon I've more chance of seeing a Belted Kingfisher 30 miles from home in my lifetime than this ever happening..
.....oh., hold on!
I'm an ex Birchwood/ Gorse Covert Resident of 20 year but still work in the area 2 days a month.
Also raise with your local councillor. (It used to be Russ Bowden or Nigel Reeves I think that were the most pro-active ones in amongst all at the Gorse Covert side, unfortunately I remember Culcheth Councillors pushed the route away from the old trackbed through the Linear Park so seems we are struck with the new route, more obtrusive to wildlife, less compulsory purchase to homeowners?).
There seems to be a weird issue where a motorway service station M62 may get built (or planning permission approved) at J11 and then part of the land compulsory purchased to build HS2. Warrington Council not contesting planning permission appeal to Government level re the Service station. Suggestion locally in Gorse Covert this may be a ploy to get land value up from farmland -> utility land, then bank the higher payments for utility compulsory purchase.
Going to be on a descending embankment at this point (when looking at the maps, don't just look at the 2D top down route, the embankments to get over the Ship Canal and down again are huge and will stop a lot of East-West small birds field to field movement. The embankment is over 10 metres at some points past the East end of Risley IV Landfill.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/629137/C320-AEC-RT-DPP-220-068212_HSM21_Sheet_2_of_2.pdf
-- Edited by Andy Slee on Saturday 19th of February 2022 11:10:58 PM
Yes I'm waiting for a reply from Cheshire LRC so we shall see?
The easiest answer is to contact the Cheshire County Recorder or the relevant person at CAWOS to check Rob.
Out of interest too, caution should be used when entering the records of other's unless their permission has been sought, which I'm sure it has, as this can create duplicate records within recording systems and animosity from those observers who either input them themselves or indeed don't want them inputted at all
As someone who has been monitoring the wildlife of Silver Lane since 2000, I have always made a point of submitting bird (and other wildlife) records for Silver Lane (covering the period 2003 & 2021) to Record via Rodis but also to CAWOS & more recently to GMLRC. The majority of records were my own but also include other birdwatchers observations where relevant/interesting or confirmed. How much notice is/was taken off this data is anyone guess & by recent results not at all!
My concern from these posts is that HS2 have gone to GMLRC/GMEU for data on the wildlife of Silver Lane about a site that is actually in Cheshire, so have they also accessed data from Record/Rodis or bypassed it?
Unfortunately looking at current plans to basicly upgrade all the current track between Wigan and Leeds via Warrington and Manchester would mean the railways across the mosslands would also be affected as the tracks would have to be replaced to take the high speed trains by the looks of it.
All the same signs have gone up at junk 11 and all along the paths at sl pools unfortunately if it happens the whole of the site will be devastated and at least 3 of the 4 pools affected or filled in. :(
The route cuts across the E end of Silver Lane Pools (Culcheth) and long the W side of Holcroft Moss, where a species of spider (Sibianor larae) was discovered in 2018 by Rich Burkmar. It's the first record for the UK, but presumably could reside in related nearby mosses. HS2 could damage the hydrology of these reserves. Apparently, Cheshire WT are involved in discussions
The route also runs along Culcheth's very popular Linear Park, and over the remnants of Culcheth's former railway station
https://www.discoverwildlife.com/animal-facts/insects-invertebrates/jumping-for-joy-as-tiny-spider-turns-out-to-be-a-new-uk-species/
It should be noted that this section of track is not actually high speed - with the bends in the route traffic would necessarily be relatively slow. It was originally intended to connect with a new overnight depot at Golborne. Currently (as I understand it), the depot is relocated to Crewe but the link railway stays in plan
Local politicians here in Culcheth are fighting HS2
Originally posted today by Michael Hood:
Little Woolden Moss
HS2 NOTICES - potential COMPULSORY PURCHASE dated 27 January 2022
All three public footpath entrances (from Ringing Pits Farm side, Twelve Yards Rd end & Moss Lodge Farm side) had official laminated notices attached to the entrance - only the one on the Twelve Yards Rd entrance appeared to be undamaged, the other 2 had been vandalised. There was no obvious notice on the Glaze Brook end of the reserve where the public footpath comes in. From the date of the notice I presume they've only just gone up so the relevant people may not yet be aware of them.
It's rather unclear - it looks like the reserve is in Schedule A which means it can be compulsorily purchased, but the proposed route goes to the West of the B5212. However the whole reserve is on the Government's website as a Safeguarded Area (i.e. subject to compulsory purchase so you can't change its usage, etc) even though it's well away from the route. Is it in these schedules to preserve its "usage" as a nature reserve? - which sounds unlikely (to me) but would be great. This would also mean that all of the non-reporting part of this post is a false alarm, in which case, my apologies.
Photos of some pages of the notice attached - sorry about the up-side-down schedule
I also notice (with a bit of dismay), that they're extending the made up perimeter path, thereby increasing the amount of path where everything can hear you coming a mile off and so ensure that they're nowhere in sight. Is this for disabled wheelchair access, great in theory but there will be nothing for them to see.
-- Edited by Michael Hood on Sunday 30th of January 2022 10:41:54 PM
The situation in Greater Manchester is as follows: All records submitted to the GM Bird Recording Group are shared with the GM Ecology Unit (GMEU) who has entered into a three year data supply agreement with HS2 which allows them to share the data with their sub-contractors, including ecological consultants working on behalf of HS2. In 2017 GMEU provided HS2 with 80k + records of Schedule 1, Red and Amber-listed species going back to 2008 from a 5-km buffer along the two high speed lines which will pass through GM. It is thanks to all the recorders who have taken the time to submit their records to GMBRG over the past ten years that HS2 now has a clear picture of the Schedule 1 and Birds of Conservation Concern (Red and Amber-listed) species that occur along the two routes and their breeding status. GMEU are about to provide HS2 with an update to include new records received since July 2017. The good news is that bird recorders have submitted an additional 44k records from across Greater Manchester to GMBRG between July 2017 and August 2018 which have been processed into the GMBRG database and shared with GMEU. Whilst perhaps only 10-15% of these will fall within the HS2 search area, the rest will be put to good use in supporting the selection of Sites of Biological Importance, as David has eluded to in his comments. I'll post separately about this shortly, as it is important that recorders understand how their records contribute to maintaining the selection of these sites.
If anyone has records from within five kilometres of the HS2 routes in Greater Manchester which they haven't shared as yet with the GM Bird Recording Group, or the GM Local Record Centre, then there is still time to do so. Probably the easiest way of submitting records is to click on the GMLRC logo at the bottom of this page which will take you to the Simple Record Form. If you prefer to send your records to GMBRG the options for doing so are explained on Manchester Birding Website Please get in touch if you need any advice.
I agree with all your points there, John, but I thought they were obliged to obtain records from the local ecology unit / bird recording group, in this case presumably Cheshire. I must admit, once I bumped into a couple of ecologists doing a survey of one of my local SBIs, and they described it as more of a walk past Survey. When I asked why they didnt carry binoculars, they said they concentrated mainly on plants, as they were easier to identify because they didnt move about.
Im not trying to criticise the Local Ecology Unit here, because I do know that they use records from local birders to assess SBI status (and are as affected as the rest of us by austerity measures. It is more to demonstrate that there are varying degrees of surveillance techniques. I am sure the surveyors you bumped into were being paid for doing much more than a walk past.
Yes all the regulars are aware it will be the end of another patch for us ,they have already set up the building by the motorway ready for the workers to use when building it,why they couldn't use the existing disused railway line rather than cutting right through perfect wildlife habitat is beyond me ,but HS2 Has kept a lot of people in wages for many years right right from the office bods in London ,to mp's ,lawyers right up to ecologists who survey the area along the route ,some of which are not capable of doing thier survey ,I met 2 surveying it last year who hadn't spotted the Black Necked Grebe on the west pool or the 20 pairs of skylark breeding on the landfill,I told them they they had better add 20 species to the list they had for the morning as they had missed 3 schedule 1 species ,Black Necked Grebe and Little Ringed plover ,Kingfisher . Instead of bringing people in from the midlands to survey an area they don't know they would be better paying the patchers on site who know what the site holds to get a true picture ,but I daupt they want that.
Originally posted today by Andy Hankinson:
I am not sure if you are aware of the planned route for HS2 Phase 2b but it cuts through, as it stands, a big portion of Silver lane pools. I have attached an image from their website, here is the link which has the full document and maps for the section between Risley and Bamfurlong, the specific map is on page 56. - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/746994/HS2_Phase_2b_WDES_Volume_2_MA05_Risley_to_Bamfurlong_map_book.pdf
If you would like to comment or respond in anyway follow this link and scroll to the bottom - https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/hs2-phase-2b-working-draft-e
-- Edited by John Doherty on Sunday 3rd of November 2013 08:43:35 AM
What is the estimated costs upto now? over 40 billion.. That means 80 billion then! Who is going to pay for this, the country has no money, the national debt is over 1000 billion and rising!
The railway system is already perfectly adequate. Who really needs to get to London a few minutes sooner.
Pie in the sky
I do tend to agree Nick. If you look back how our communications ability has improved over the last 15-20 years ( which is about as long as it will take to build this thing) we have now got video calling on mobile phones, face time/ Skype webinars etc etc. I reckon in another 10 years there'll be something amazing like holographic meetings which means no need to travel to London. What it really needs is an investment in rolling stock and the lines. But, like I said before, this is as much about the add ons as the actual line itself. All based on our poor economic model of building houses.
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Saturday 2nd of November 2013 08:14:12 PM
However at £240 a return trip, it's no wonder electricity bills are going up. If the government wanted to be green, DECC should move to Birmingham or somewhere more convenient for those companies north of Watford.
However I'll probably be retired by the time the thing is built.
Most likely because wherever they create new 'depots' to service the line there will be jobs, and then houses and then the economy will be just super don't you know.
Well that's the theory. Oh, and don't worry about any environmental damage - the economy is king!
Greenest Government ever I believe.
Can someone explain to me how the HS2 is supposed to benefit the North? People can barely afford to pay train tickets nowadays so how will they afford these new HS2 tickets? One thing amazes me is the Lib Dems who claim to be the most green party out of the major three support it.
Interesting article about HS2
It was packed and great concern to the local commnity. It's not just hs2 but housing as well and there was talk of building a station on the hs2 spur which in turn would make it attractive to commuters and hence demand fr more housing developments. Most of the green belt in Lowton is under now under severe threat of developmet.
The wildlife and green space we now take for granted might be a memory in 20 yeas.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/ios-investigation-hs2--the-hidden-cost-to-britains-wildlife-8478609.html
This Government is bonkers! Most of their policies appear to be aimed at aiding the rich to impriove the economy. Personally I think the money would be better spent on families who are struggling to pay necessities such as mortgages, bills and improving public transport for every day users. Having travelled peak times a couple of times over the last 6 months to London (work paid for it) I could not believe how empty the carriages were. That is no way to make money!
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Tim, You must be looking at a different plan than I have looked at!
Here is the link -
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69073/hs2-msg-wcm-zz-dr-rt-52202.pdf
Lightshaw Hall is at the left of the plan, with the track between it and the flash. The large roughly rectangular blue area (extended a lot longer to the other end of Lightshaw Lane) is 'The Proposed HS2 Rolling Stock Maintenance Depot' - as you can see, Lightshaw Hall lies within this shaded area.
Balmer's Farm will not be all that close to the line itself, it is the depot which will their problem.
As you say, a disaster to the area, whatever they do, and Grade 2* listing means not a jot.
Margaret
-- Edited by Margaret Wilkinson on Friday 1st of February 2013 07:01:46 AM
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/68971/hs2-phase-two-initial-preferred-scheme-sustainability-summary.pdf
6.8.7. Although designed to limit direct impacts on the Grade 2* listed Lightshaw Hall, the depot near Golborne would adversely affect the setting of this building, which would remain within the depot site. It would also adversely affect the setting of the Grade 2 listed Byrom Hall.
Margaret
It's nonsense as the plan I looked at clearly shows the line running right through the hall. Anyway a disaster for the area regardless of whether they knock the hall down or not. And by the way Grade 2* means very little to determined developers. In this case HM Govt.
-- Edited by Tim Wilcox on Thursday 31st of January 2013 10:33:15 PM
Our leaders have previous on this, have a look at the wide expanses of the oh so peacefull M6 Toll where 90% of traffic is priced into the continuing traffic jams on the M6 proper. A national scandal.
Why aren't we looking at ways to enable people to travel less for work. Job swap or something like that. The M60 is chocker at rush hour, probably with people passing each other going in the opposite direction to do exactly the same job. The worlds gone mad.
Information technology will hopefully end the need for so much travel and kill this HS2 before it gets off the drawing board.
https://www.gov.uk/hs2-phase-two-initial-preferred-route-plan-and-profile-maps#route-map-west-midlands-to-manchester
Lowton to Bamfurlong pdf. map 52202 shows the route going through Lightshaw Hall - right through the Hall! This is to be replaced with a giant marshaling/repair yard. It then loops on round knocking its way through Windy Bank Farm and Balmer's Farm to connect with the existing line.
The pdf. map covering Davenport Green is under Winterbottom to Ardwick 52805 It runs up beside Sunbank Wood and anyone's house on Sunbank Lane that isn't being knocked down by the World Logistics Hub will be by HS2. It all explains why the business park was forced through planning as there is to be a major new HS2 station right next door
Well said Henry, I thought that was the Tories main policy, stealing from the poor to feed the rich
The government is desperate to be seen to be doing something on he economy. If its flawed so what? it's only public money and none of today's politicans will be accountable for it in 20 years so from their perspective what is not to like about HS2?
Peter
Has anyone looked at the route and plans? There are plans for a huge maintenance depot running most of the way down Lightshaw Lane, to Slag Lane near Pennington Flash at the other end. Two recently converted Grade 2* listed barns (one not yet complete) will be demolished to make way for the depot. Lightshaw Hall itself, a Grade 2* listed building, will be retained, sat within the depot itself - won't it look nice! I hope the birds at Lightshaw and Pennington flashes get used to the construction work and the eventual sound of the trains.
-- Edited by Margaret Wilkinson on Thursday 31st of January 2013 06:09:05 AM
The imact on wildlife sites in the North, and in particular our region, is now beginning to become apparent:
http://www.wildlifetrusts.org/news/2013/01/30/hs2-phase-2-%E2%80%93-high-impact-north%E2%80%99s-natural-heritage
We already have a national rail infastructure. What is the point of HS2 ? Somebody, please explain ?
Hmm. Unfortunately that isn't strictly true Paul. As long as they get a licence and provide mitigation they can destroy GCN habitat.
-- Edited by Mike Chorley on Wednesday 30th of January 2013 05:18:54 PM
The latest proposed route goes close to Tatton Park but misses it (see https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69058/hs2-msg-mr0-zz-dr-rt-71001.pdf ). But the route isn't 100% rubber stamped yet so it could encroach closer to or on the park in the end. I do agree that we have reason to worry about all this. The impact is going to be huge & looking at areas near to where I live where I have done bird surveys or just birded, I fear for lots of major habitat destruction with birds such as Yellowhammers, Tree Sparrows, Linnets, and other farmland species being hit. A farmer I know nearby is having it through his land if the proposed route goes ahead & he is one of the most environmentally conscious farmers I know. The link with Manchester here is strong as my wife, who lectures at Manchester Uni, takes groups of students out to his farm every year for her course. I fear all that will be lost if he has to give up his farm as it is now, not only the loss of his land & its wildlife value but the priceless knowledge he passes on to students every year.
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Tuesday 29th of January 2013 04:51:55 PM
The environmental consultants conducting the EIA will have to locate and 'mitigate' for the loss of habitat, but I will happily inform the consultation on the newts presence. It concerns me however, during current projects to translocate newts in the Manchester Airport area, that capture methods appeared far from effective and will consign some to an illegal fate. I am highly sceptical on the success of translocating newts in this area overall as mitigation ponds have not been planned out in the short-term or managed in the long-term allowing vegetation succession to take over.
If you can prove there are Great Crested Newts on your patch, then by law they cannot destroy the habitat.
Check http://www.jprenvironmental.co.uk/great_crested_newt_endangered_species_profile.htm
And http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/protecting-wildlife/legislation-licenses-protect-wildlife/species-protected-eulaw/
Cheers,
Paul
Not so sure having a major rail route would have devastating consequences to wildlife. I will remain open-minded about this plan. There can be advantages to wildlife with a plan like this: less traffic on our roads - less polution; less risk of losing countryside to housing development- who wants a house right next to a main line? etc. Also, railways can provide good wildlife corridoors.
You just need to look at Potteric Carr to see that having a main line running through a nature reserve is not necessarily a bad thing.
Enjoy our wild countryside whie you can
http://www.cheshirewildlifetrust.org.uk/HS2#What%20is%20proposed?