Mark Avery's (former RSPB Conservation Director) website currently has a guest blog on there which some of you may find interesting (together with the comments beneath it):

http://markavery.info/2013/05/13/guest-blog-submit-records-birdtrack-keith-bennett/

Extremely interesting read. Thanks for the link.

I have to admit, BirdTrack is not my favourite piece of software. In France, they have a similar sort of software to Svalan, in the way that you can choose if you want to put in just a casual record, or a full blown list, and of course you can put down your sighting exactly where you saw your bird, all in just a few minutes. All your (non-sensitive) records are free to be seen by the casual observer, and real time maps are produced by the website organisers about a particular species movement (for example the arrival of Swallows).

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, here is the link to the website of the Aquitaine region, and you can choose english as the language near the top right-hand corner.

http://www.faune-aquitaine.org/

When I was 'born' into the birding world, I discovered this great (pardon the bias) piece of software straight away, and when I came back to the UK, I was interested to see how the british software would compare. After trying Birdtrack, RODiS, and the Excel sheet submission form, I finally settled (grudglingly) with BirdTrack (though of course, each method had its own advantages and disadvantages, and I did appreciate quite a few aspects of RODiS).

The biggest thing I find annoying with all these british methods of submission, is, as Keith Bennett said, the fact that it is hard to acces all the records amassed by all the users, especially having spent the previous years using the French system. I really do think that opening up the database in a better way is going to encourage the general public to send in more sightings (as well as giving a degree of competiveness). BirdTrack's new front page is much better (though there is still room for improvement), and I am now a lot more satisfied when using it.

One more final thing I wish to comment on, is the idea of having just one same system of recording. In France (again), they do it from the bottom up, with each region or departement using the same software, tailored to that region, and all their sightings are sent up to a master database centre. They do not have complete coverage yet, and some regional websites have just been set up, but at least there is full software compatibility. I think it would be a good idea to put some order in the British wildlife sighting collection system, and improving its openness, as I think that people would be a lot happier to send in their sightings if it was less confusing. And I always find it enjoyable to look at the real time map showing the arrival of the first Swallows, and to proudly look at that little dot representing the sighting I just put on and think "this is how I'm helping the birds".

-- Edited by Paul Hurst on Monday 13th of May 2013 08:23:03 PM

Hi Nev,

Many thanks for your offer to cover some of the Trafford SBIs. I've sent you a pm.

Cheers


Steve

Hi Steve
Thanks for the info....very useful. I should say my records aren't all from Greater Manchester, but I do try to report all sightings (and breeding codes)!
If you could PM me a list of Trafford SBIs, boundaries etc that would be great. It's always interesting to find new sites to investigate.
Cheers
Nev

Hi Nev,

You've clearly been very busy both birding and recording/submitting records! The GM Bird Recording Group (GMBRG) has access to BirdTrack records submitted from Greater Manchester, and those from winters 2007-11 and breeding seasons 2008 to 2011, have been incorporated into the atlas data which the BTO has also supplied to GMBRG.

So, if you are already using BirdTrack, please don't submit your records via RODIS, as this could result in duplication in both the GMBRG and GM Local Record Centre's databases. There is a data exchange agreement between the two organisations which means that all bird sightings submitted via RODIS are passed on to GMBRG.

However, Ian's post was aimed at encouraging people who currently post their sightings on the forum, but don't send their records in to GMBRG, to start doing so. The GMBRG database holds over 600k records going back to 1992 and is used not only to produce the annual county report, but also to support the work of the GM Ecology Unit in selecting and maintaining Sites of Biological Importance (SBI) of which there are currently 535. In Oldham for example there are 37 SBIs covering 34 square kilometres (23% of the borough's surface area), so they are clearly of huge importance in protecting our birds and other wildlife. All records submitted to GMBRG from within SBIs are supplied to GMEU and used to justify the continuing selection of these sites. However, in recent years there has been a noticeable decline in the number of bird records received from SBIs and this is already having a negative effect. Shore Top Reservoir in Bury was reviewed last year and is no longer considered to be a significant site for birds. There was a similar lack of information from Byrom Hall Floods in Wigan.

A number of GM birders have volunteered to record on SBIs in Oldham, Tameside and Wigan and their records are already being put to good use. There are still plenty of other sites which are not being covered at present. So if you'd like a list of SBIs from your borough we can provide these, as well as detailed maps of site boundaries and a description of the habitats and species occurring there.

As you will see Ian has also posted on the County Notice Board about a fantastic opportunity to get involved with surveys in some of GM's ancient woodland (yes we do actually have some!). Free training will be provided and give you the chance to increase your ID and recording skills.

For anyone who is interested in contributing towards protecting GM's wildlife sites but would like some guidance on how to record and the type of records to submit, we are considering running some courses on this very topic. These would be free of charge but first of all we need to know whether there is enough interest to justify running them. Please get in touch either via pm or email info@gmwilldife.co.uk.

And finally, as the breeding season gets under way, please don't forget those all important breeding codes. Bill Myerscough's post from 11th February in the GM Needs Your Bird Sightings/General Record Submission Discussion section of this forum is essential reading for anyone who wants to gen up on how to use the codes.

Steve




-- Edited by GM Local Record Centre on Thursday 4th of April 2013 01:24:25 PM

Hi Ian
A simple question (and apologies if it has been answered already);
I usually submit my records on Birdtrack (since 2005, 617 complete lists, 190 locations, 16000+ entries apparently and now use their mobile app!).
Should I submit them on RODIS too?
BW
Nev Wright

Many of you out there have already registered for RODiS and I cannot be too grateful for this; your records are being put to work daily in protecting birds and their habitats now and for the future. It's the easiest way of giving something back

There are though still many who are not submitting their records, some of which go to great lengths to type out intricate posts on here and my original questions still remains; are we getting selfish? Is personal kudos more important than spending 10 minutes submitting your records on a free on-line system?

How many of the Waxwing sightings on this forum will simply go to waste and become merely 'old news' on a forum. More importantly, how many posts about breeding birds (there was one about a Woodpigeon nest building today), the most important record we could hope for (irrelevant of species!), will be lost to a few lines in a post and nothing more, when they could so easily be utilised for the good of those birds themselves.

Come on everyone, this forum goes from strength to strength, it's number of views increases week on week and so do the number of daily posts yet all I ask for providing this is that you take the few minutes to officially submit those sightings, even if its only the important ones. I don't think that's too much to ask its it, not when after all, its for the birds and not really for me

Nick Isherwood wrote:

---

I've been following this thread closely over the last few days and I can really relate to everything that's been said.

I'm relatively new to recording. I think this is only my second year or so doing it, but in that time I've really become hooked on it. My main motivation for doing it at first was just to record the different species that occurred on my own patch as I wasn't aware that it was watched that much. Since then though I've got really into it and take great joy in not only recording all the species that occur down there but also submitting breeding records for them too. All of this really does add an extra edge to your birding. Through the many visits down on my patch and watching the regular birds that occur down there my own ability as a birder has increased and my identification of birds has come on leaps and bounds, especially so when it comes to bird calls.

Basically what I'm trying to put across is that by recording and submitting records it will undoubtably make you a better birder in many different ways.

---

Just getting round to catching up with some of the recent posts on this thread. It was brilliant to read your inspiring post on this topic Nick. It just goes to show what knowledge and skills birders can develop and what pleasures they can also get out of keeping and submitting their records. Many thanks for that Nick. Great stuff.

Best wishes,

Bill.

I'm still waiting for the BTO (or whoever) to produce (in my case for Apple), an app that lets me record sightings on the go. I think I filled at least 10 notebooks with sightings last year, which then have to be added up, coded and allocated to a 1 km square (for Birdtrack). If your patch coveres several different squares (as several of my frequently visited sites do), that means separate entries (though I will admit to cheating at the borders of squares sometimes) and more effort. :( Sometimes I feel that I spend almost as much time slaving over a hot spreadsheet as I do in the field (particularly after I've visited somewhere new and found that my route criss-crossed umpteen squares ) but at the end of the day, its very gratifying to see the species richness gradually changing. Adding new species and being able to compare details such as earliest and latest dates for species adds interest for me and prompts me to look that bit closer the next time. It has definately resulted in improved observational skills (though there is still massive room for improvement), but its also rewarding to be part of a larger project from which wildlife and the wider community can benefit from.

No problems Ian. Message me when you can.

I'll reply privately if that's okay Lawson and we can work through what's best for you.

The 'Greater Manchester needs your bird sightings' thread on this forum and the 'Bird Recording and County Rarities' page of the Manchester Birding website are good starting points though.

On the grounds that a courteous reply on a forum (Ian's response to me yesterday) deserves a positive response I promise (as far as my aging mind will remember) to officially report my sightings - however trivial they may seem to me. The only thing that I now need to know definitively is what software I need on my 'puter & what program(s) I need to download.
Could somebody please now (I am aware that the answers are somewhere in previous posts on here, but it's Sunday lunchtime & I'm nervous for City this afternoon) list in a 1, 2, 3, etc step guide, what is needed. In my case I operate on Windows 8.

Andy,

Have you managed to install MapMate on your pc? Instructions were sent with the disc on how to enter records, but if you'd like to send a pm with your tel. no. I'm happy to give you a ring later today, or one evening/next weekend (whenever is convenient) and talk though entering a few records.

I'm not sure whether emails are going astray but you should have received a file with the main GM sites which needs to be imported into MapMate before you can start entering records. Again I can talk you through how to do this.

It's also important that you register your copy on the MapMate website. Once you've done that I will send you a file containing all your records from the GMBRG database. You've been a regular contributor of records since the database was set up in 1992, so there will be approx. 5k. It literally takes a couple of minutes to download and import the file and you will then be able to view and query all your old records.


Steve

Andy Bissitt wrote:

---

<

Ian,

That's a good answer, almost as if you had looked it up.

Seriously though, so that I do not fall into the non-reporting trap, and to snap me out of my current apathy, can you just point me towards the simplest and most easily understood guide on how to use Mapmate. It's got to be straightforward and relatively idiot proof because when I get home from work these days anything that will tax my already weary brain is a no-no.

Cheers.

---

I had to! I'm simply not that eloquant or intelligent

Hopefully Steve Atkins will be along to answer your MapMate query as he's the guru with that one (I'm merely the muscle ).

Ian McKerchar wrote:

---

Andy Bissitt wrote:

---

Ian,

Here I go again. Would I be stabbing blindly in the dark in suggesting that non-recorders and twitchers are often one and the same? In any case, if you wanted to confine the argument to records, the word in the subject title might have been 'secretive'. Selfish suggests money rather than information. Sorry, I don't have the chance to be pedantic much these days!

Andy B

---

The majority of the county's twitchers do, and many always have, submitted their county sightings; so certainly from a GM perspective that's not the case Andy.

As for the use of the word 'selfish'; "Selfishness is placing concern with oneself or one's own interests above the well-being or interests of others" (in this case 'one's own interests' being our enjoyment, photographing, blogging, posting, listing etc and the 'others' being the birds themselves).

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Friday 11th of January 2013 10:52:34 PM

---

Ian,

That's a good answer, almost as if you had looked it up.

Seriously though, so that I do not fall into the non-reporting trap, and to snap me out of my current apathy, can you just point me towards the simplest and most easily understood guide on how to use Mapmate. It's got to be straightforward and relatively idiot proof because when I get home from work these days anything that will tax my already weary brain is a no-no.

Cheers.

I've been following this thread closely over the last few days and I can really relate to everything that's been said.

I'm relatively new to recording. I think this is only my second year or so doing it, but in that time I've really become hooked on it. My main motivation for doing it at first was just to record the different species that occurred on my own patch as I wasn't aware that it was watched that much. Since then though I've got really into it and take great joy in not only recording all the species that occur down there but also submitting breeding records for them too. All of this really does add an extra edge to your birding. Through the many visits down on my patch and watching the regular birds that occur down there my own ability as a birder has increased and my identification of birds has come on leaps and bounds, especially so when it comes to bird calls.

Basically what I'm trying to put across is that by recording and submitting records it will undoubtably make you a better birder in many different ways.

Lawson - all records are valuable, whether from an hour visit or a full day. As long as its accurate (I.e. you can tell what species it is) it will be of value. E.g I have records ready to go of a pied wagtail roost I saw at a retail park in wigan why I was waiting for my mrs to finish her shopping!

OK, here is a thought (& I'm one who admits to never having submitted a record):-

To my mind, most sites (not all, I accept) in the area are very public & are regularly watched. Therefore why should I send in my records, for example, of Alkrington Woods / Rhodes Lodges (my local patch) when I know for a fact that are better birders than me (i.e. will see more / miss less, than me) covering the area who will almost certainly be making a return? The same is so (but on a larger scale) for Pennington; Audenshaw Reservoirs; etc. You might ask why I post anything on the the County Sightings forum. The answer is that (please be gentle when you pull me apart for this) I do it as much for ego purposes as in the expectation that I have given any real insight as to what is 'new' on an area I visit.

So, to sum up, I would consider sending in records but firstly they would be very incomplete (an hour at Alkrington - then nothing for a couple of weeks; a few hours at Pennington - then nothing for the rest of the year; etc), & (more importantly) I would always feel that somebody was capable of sending in more comprehensive returns.

Plenty of interesting comments on this thread. Coming back for my "second helping" - my own opinion (for what it's worth!) is that I'm not sure that the situation with birders not submitting details of their sightings to the Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group (GMBRG) is solely to do with selfishness or laziness. I suspect there will always be a small percentage of birders who fall into these categories and sadly that no amount of carrot or stick (or indeed any form of incentive) will make them alter their ways. I think Ian mentioned in an earlier post that he was "all ears" as to hear why birders felt they were unable to send in their records. To date all the posts on this thread appear to have been from those who do submit records and it would now be very interesting and really much more enlightening to hear from those who don't.

I suspect there might possibly be other reasons that birders don't send their records in and as is mentioned above it would be interesting to hear on this thread from some of those birders who don't and the reasons why they don't. I admit it will take some courage to come and state this but the idea is, as Ian states, not to start pointing fingers at these birders but for us to try and help them get over some of their concerns/ reservations /lack of understanding of the mechanics of record submitting. I'm not sure where it has come from but there seems to have developed a mythology around record submitting that it is difficult, complicated or time-consuming. It really is none of these and we would like to try and get to the bottom of why some birders think submitting their records is anything but simple, straightforward and quick. It would be really brilliant to hear from those birders who have thought about submitting their sightings but for whatever reason haven't quite yet got round to doing it. Please let's hear about these "hurdles", so that we can all try and muck in and help those that are keen to start off to get over them. Of course, things can always be discussed via pm, if that is what is wanted but ideally it would be better if these concerns could be discussed and shared on the forum, for others to read and learn from. The idea of all of the forums is to share information but they are also there for all of us to help each other with any problems we may have. After all, if the sharing of our concerns results in our questions being answered then it may also be the case for many other birders reading the same posts too. So instead of the answer encouraging just one birder to get started on submitting their records, we may get another 9, 99 or 999 doing so too!

Are there any birders out there that are prepared to share their reasons as to why they haven't yet started sending their sightings records into GMBRG? I hope so. There are plenty of us on the forum willing and prepared to try and help.

Cheers,

Bill.

Your honesty is both admirable and very refreshing Lawson, so thank you very much for your comments; they are what I started the thread for (that and the fact it has already accrued several new recorders for the county for which I am very humbly grateful ).

The fact is though, that most sites in the county are poorly recorded really. I receive very few records from Rhodes Lodges for certain and despite Pennington Flash's many visitors only three or four submit records which are not as frequent as folk might think or we might like. If everyone who visited reported their sightings for the latter site it's coverage would be entirely more comprehensive. Of course, just because there's other birders watching the same site rarely means they're all recording exactly the same birds.

It matters not how often you manage to get out to any site though, it only takes one record to be important . This is, for me, the beauty of RODiS, which is very easy for users of infrequent records. The Manchester Birding website has a list of all species recorded in the county and of which (or what level of flock number etc) are worthy or submitting to the Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group, which I will be imminently updating but which still holds true as it is now.

The more submitting you do, the more understanding you acquire about what's important/worth submitting, why its worth doing and importantly, it is THE best way to both increase your understanding of the sites you visit and your own birding knowledge. That said, a copy of the latest county bird report gives an excellent appreciation of the status of county bird species' as a starting point. You might surprise yourself at those birds you felt unworthy of reporting actually being important!

In short, you've got to start somewhere and we appreciate all records we receive no matter of their frequency or perceived value. We will offer any support and assistance we can to ease you into the process, to a level I don't think any other county in the UK currently does. Your records are THAT valuable to us. You never know too, most of the fairly recently converted bird recorders in the county have literally become hooked on it; it opens up a whole new extremely rewarding avenue of birding, for which you might be next

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Saturday 12th of January 2013 09:03:53 PM

Mike Price wrote:

---

Hi Ian,

I don't keep a record of Greater Manchester sightings, I do however record any nesting species that we monitor (mostly Derbyshire and South West Yorkshire but also a few just over the border into Gtr Manchester.

I have always assumed that this information was available to county recorders via the BTO but to be honest I have never thought to check with anyone, is this the case?

Regards

Mike


-- Edited by Mike Price on Friday 11th of January 2013 06:01:29 PM

---

Yes and no, Mike

Nest Record data is available from the BTO to Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group for the county report BUT only scanty details such as numbers of records submitted per species. Ian would be delighted to receive more detailed info which would improve the county database. Obviously precise locations of breeding birds would not be published in the county report in the same way that they are not published on this forum.

Lazy more like! Not secretive (that's my excuse anyway)

If it was money then every single one of us would be guilty spending too much money in the pub, clothes, holidays etc
Rather than putting it towards conservation doesn't seem fair to aim it at twitchers (and I'm not one btw)

My stab in the dark is that the non-recorders are just regular birders doing local patches hence the plea for getting records submitted.

I'm going to be getting mine in as already it's looking like sites in the bury area may be under threat from development and if you don't have your records in your not going to be able to do anything about it!

Ian,

Here I go again. Would I be stabbing blindly in the dark in suggesting that non-recorders and twitchers are often one and the same? In any case, if you wanted to confine the argument to records, the word in the subject title might have been 'secretive'. Selfish suggests money rather than information. Sorry, I don't have the chance to be pedantic much these days!

Andy B

Of course, the original intention of this thread was mainly of 'selfishness' (perhaps) by birders not bothering to give something back to the birds who provide them so much enjoyment, by very simply submitting their sighting which carry so much value

Mark Rigby wrote:

---

Andy Bissitt wrote:

---

Ian,

You might well add to this that wouldn't it be better if all the money being spent by birdwatchers twitching rarities (and not-so-rarities) was instead given to conservation.

---

Congratulations Andy in posting the most outrageous comment for many a year!

I understand you don't partake in twitching yourself but why should those of us who do stop and give the money we would have spent to conservation. I suppose in your opinion, twitching is pointless? But its something that lots of people enjoy. Why stop at twitching, why not stop foreign birding holidays, visiting 'aunty Ethel' in Cornwall (and no I don't have an aunty Ethel in Cornwall before anybody asks) or ban the use of the motor car full stop! What about football? Supporters travelling the length and breadth of the country to support thier team-a complete waste of time and money. Why not ban anything that you don't have an interest in? The world would then be such a better place-I think not.

---

Whooooah Mr Rigby, (as in the noise emitted to stop a horse),

Much as I might appreciate being awarded the accolade of 'most outrageous comment for many a year', you have taken the bait nicely from the trap I set. Nowhere have I said that what I wrote was my personal opinion, I have merely suggested that twitching might be construed as being a form of birding selfishness. You could also add that twitching, by its very nature, is anti-conservation as a bird becoming rare makes it more desirable. You've got to agree that it is an interesting proposition. As for myself, I would still travel to see a bird I haven't seen before in Greater Manchester, and I do take foreign holidays. What I don't wish to do is class myself as somehow being 'holier than thou', and I hate hypocrisy. Perhaps I have less understanding of spending money which could be put to the greater good on getting a list of more or less the same 190-200 birds every year. I would just like to think that everyone strikes a nice balance and is not just thinking that if they deprive the RSBP or whoever of a few bob, they will have more incentive to travel to see the increasing list of birds whose numbers are dwindling to nothing. Oh, is this the 5 minute argument or the full half hour?

P.S. If I find anything of interest, I will not, and do not keep it to myself, so I don't discourage 'twitching'. That would be outrageous!

Cheers,

Andy

Very interesting discussion topic gents.

If anybody does want to learn how to use RODiS (a free online recording tool that ensures your records get shared in an official capacity with the Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group and the NBN) there are two free tutor led courses running and full details can be found here.

RODiS will run on any Windows PC, MAC or Linux machine. All you need is a web browser (Chrome, Safari, Firefox etc.) and Flash Player. Unfortunately it is not supported on mobile devices without Flash (e.g. iPads and tablets), although there is an Android app available.

Regards

Paul

Andy Bissitt wrote:

---

Ian,

Here I go again. Would I be stabbing blindly in the dark in suggesting that non-recorders and twitchers are often one and the same? In any case, if you wanted to confine the argument to records, the word in the subject title might have been 'secretive'. Selfish suggests money rather than information. Sorry, I don't have the chance to be pedantic much these days!

Andy B

---

The majority of the county's twitchers do, and many always have, submitted their county sightings; so certainly from a GM perspective that's not the case Andy.

As for the use of the word 'selfish'; "Selfishness is placing concern with oneself or one's own interests above the well-being or interests of others" (in this case 'one's own interests' being our enjoyment, photographing, blogging, posting, listing etc and the 'others' being the birds themselves).

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Friday 11th of January 2013 10:52:34 PM

Hi Ian,

I don't keep a record of Greater Manchester sightings, I do however record any nesting species that we monitor (mostly Derbyshire and South West Yorkshire but also a few just over the border into Gtr Manchester.

I have always assumed that this information was available to county recorders via the BTO but to be honest I have never thought to check with anyone, is this the case?

Regards

Mike


-- Edited by Mike Price on Friday 11th of January 2013 06:01:29 PM

Steve Christmas wrote:

---

Here is a different angle on the same topic.
In my younger days in the early 1990s I went into a hide at Lodmoor, Dorset which was occupied by an elderly couple. I pointed out a few commoner birds to them. Then a trio of hard core twitcher types with scopes came in and sat behind us. After a few minutes, a tern appeared and obligingly flew in front of the hide a couple of times. It was clearly a summer adult whiskered tern. The elderly couple were blissfully unaware of it while the three birders behind began whispering among themselves.
After a while I turned round and said to them 'Isn't that a whiskered tern?' One of them said 'yes, we heard it was around'. It was left to me to point it out to the elderly couple, who were delighted.
I often wonder if the three birders would have said anything if I hadn't mentioned it first.
Has anyone ever been in a similar situation? Any suggestions as to the motivation of the three birders? Shyness? Elitism?Doubt in their own identification? Selfishness?

---

Right, that's another angle, you're right! We're all well-aware of the multitude of people who attend reserves - it encompasses different levels of bird ID ranging from the expert to the beginner - which is great, because underlying all of this, the enthusiasm (I hope!) of people who attend these reserves will be inherent (except, maybe, the son/daughter/wife/husband 'dragged' unwillingly, but I mean how can birds, their nature and behavior not interest or inspire anyone even a little ) so based on the presumption most people who attend reserves of any kind (be that Pennington or the organized RSPB/WWT type) are enthusiastic/passionate for birds/nature, we can see the leveler - the divisive aspect of it, as per Steve's anecdote, is complex and probably multi-faceted - I'll take a swing and assume there's a perceived-level of 'entitlement' buried in the psyche of some birders, which obviously, given the moment a mega drops by, becomes more pronounced - perhaps it was the 'entitlement' (defined as sense of "well they're not going to be bothered if it's rare or not anyway so no point letting them know) in overdrive there Steve????
By entitlement I mean, a sense that because a birder is knowledgeable, experienced and seasoned, those who are clearly not, aren't part of that clique or circle. This is a generalization and not applicable to everyone, of course.

I'll add - in an answer to the thread title, I've experienced almost nothing but the opposite of selfishness in my short time in the hobby in terms of imparted knowledge/chats/use of peoples' scopes/eyesight and try to give back - there are probably exceptions, loners who may see something half-decent, let's say Siskin or Dipper, in the direction you're heading to and they're coming from, and not let on lest they get sucked into a conversation and are ten minutes late for The Archers

Finally, I am adamant that birdwatching is, compared to other hobbies I have partook in, one of the ones where generousity is abound - I've done hobbies where there's potentially monetary value involved and THAT is where the backstabbing and selfishness really rears its ugly head.




-- Edited by John Doherty on Friday 11th of January 2013 03:00:19 PM

Here is a different angle on the same topic.
In my younger days in the early 1990s I went into a hide at Lodmoor, Dorset which was occupied by an elderly couple. I pointed out a few commoner birds to them. Then a trio of hard core twitcher types with scopes came in and sat behind us. After a few minutes, a tern appeared and obligingly flew in front of the hide a couple of times. It was clearly a summer adult whiskered tern. The elderly couple were blissfully unaware of it while the three birders behind began whispering among themselves.
After a while I turned round and said to them 'Isn't that a whiskered tern?' One of them said 'yes, we heard it was around'. It was left to me to point it out to the elderly couple, who were delighted.
I often wonder if the three birders would have said anything if I hadn't mentioned it first.
Has anyone ever been in a similar situation? Any suggestions as to the motivation of the three birders? Shyness? Elitism?Doubt in their own identification? Selfishness?

To put forward a positive angle, I don't think Ian realises how bad the situation might be without his website and this forum.

The forum in particular has helped create a real county birding community which, with the gradual demise of several local bird clubs and societies, would otherwise not exist.

Whenever I receive notification of a new BTO member, I send them a brief welcome e-mail in which, as well as mentioning BTO surveys, I always encourage them to a) submit records to the county recorder, b) read the county report and c) look at this website. I don't get a great number of responses but the ones I do get are always positive.

At one time my database of BTO members was a list of names, most of which meant very little to me. Thanks to the forum, I now feel that I know many more of them - even when we've not met face to face. When looking for folk to participate in the Winter Thrush Survey, I approached several people who regular post on the forum and the response in all cases was great.

I know that Ian is always trying to improve just about everything that he's involved with (and all power to his elbow!) but don't despair - it would be a lot worse without you

I think you're undoubtably right Craig (you old fart ) but many of those same birders who don't apparently use notebooks etc do post their excellent and often detailed sightings on here (presumably from memory because they're young and it still works ) so why not just use the RODiS method of recording which is quick, easy and found on this very same forum?

Actually enjoying the birds is what it's all about though (or it should be anyway) and nothing (not even record submission) should get in the way of that. It's just that not only is it now as easy as you want it up be (record submission) but many of our birds and habitats are disappearing and we can all help in either understanding why that is or perhaps helping to prevent or improve it by simply submitting what we see.

I really don't want to come across as going on and in about it (I know; too late) but its amazing how I've spoken to so many dedicated record submitting birders in the county since my original post on this thread and they wholly agree and back what I'm trying to achieve; they all understand off their own backs and for them noting and submitting what they see has actually made an entirely positive contribution to their enjoyment of our hobby

I'm going to be controversial here. I don't mean to offend anyone so apologies in advance if I do.

I wonder whether it is to do with when people took up the hobby? I'm basing this on chats I've had with lots of birders at different sites. What I mean is this: many new birders - both old and young - have likely come to the hobby in the recent surge in technology. As many people have noted before you rarely see a notebook these days. You can use a phone, ipad or whatever to take an interactive id guide, with song and a 'tick list' with you. Plus, many people get attracted to the listing side. Many newly retired new birders I've spoken to haven't been interested in recording, they just enjoy spending time outside and seeing the birds.

Birders of a certain age (including me) grew up with a local patch where one reason for counting and listing birds in a notebook was to relieve the boredom as much as anything. These days it's so easy to just go somewhere else, so many people just don't bother counting and recording and therefore don't actually have any records to submit, maybe?

Thanks for the input Keith, very much appreciated as is everyone's so far (though I'm not sure I quite agree with your 'anti twitching' stance either Andy!).

I have to say though that being accused of 'constantly deriding non-recorders' is really quite unfair and off the mark . I have contempt for no one on the forum and have always made an issue of how grateful I am that so many birders choose to us it in the first place; no one wants to own a forum no one uses! Surely though, the birds themselves are most important thing here? Surely making sure we have something to look at, somewhere to go birding is at least important to everyone on here? As Mr. Woosey rightly intimates, the worry many if us feel over the current planning laws, plus of course the potentially disastrous reduction in Police wildlife crime units and officers, is no exaggeration; its real and its happening around us all.

As for the forum 'lurkers' they're welcome to lurk as are registered users allowed not to submit their sightings if they wish not to; all my initial post asked was for a genuine reason as to why the latter might be. If birders just can't be bothered because they don't care then fine, I can still respect it but others may not understand the process, be wary of it, be worried about getting involved and if so I need to know so I can assist them and improve what we're offering. If some genuinely don't have the time then we are actively working to find solutions for them too; they just need to let me know so I can work out what I need to do but conversely to these observers, no one can deny that officially submitting your sightings is far more important that merely just posting them in here, yet many choose the latter. That's everyone's prerogative though and I've always allowed that on the forum because that's the way it is and the way I intended it.

As for carrots, I've tried carrots and it seems most don't like them . The annual county bird report is one massive carrot of county observers hard work and certainly the 2011 report (still bring written) emphasises much of the incredible work those who contribute do and just what it can achieve. The hundreds of thousands of records in the county database are working on the birds behalf practically daily; indeed only within the past few days one well known county site (which I may or may not be allowed to divulge just yet?) has obtained an extension to its SBI to cover a wider area due to the hard work and record submitting of only one birder, yet another well known/high profile site runs the risk of loosing its due to no bird records being submitted to support the SBI despite us going above and beyond the call of duty to supply the observer with all the necessary tools to do so.

In the six years this forum has been 'alive' its been an incredible success, its users have gained (so they tell me) so much enjoyment from it and that does make it worthwhile. But is it just too much for me to ask for those who enjoy it to give a little something back anyway though? I pay the pretty substantial monthly bills so everyone can use the forum and now I'm just asking for a little something in return which costs nothing but a few minutes of time.





-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Thursday 10th of January 2013 11:33:32 AM

I can understand the need to hammer home the message about the need to submit records, and I am sure that this will produce converts to the cause( It has guided me, for one, into starting to submit records).However I do not feel that ''non- recorders'',who post on the Forum,should be continually derided as if in need of some psychological assessment.
At the very least, these birders who simply post on the forum are passing on and sharing their sightings with other Birders, and placing such sightings in the public domain with the then possibility of the birds being recorded by others.
Rather, should we not aim to encourage the numerous birders who simply ''Guest'' on a regular basis on this Forum?
These include some very dedicated Bird Watchers,who I know read the Forum on a regular basis. Presumably they find the Forum interesting but choose not to make any contribution whatsoever.
There are a lot of decent people out there and I am not making any criticism of them but I do feel that some
of the targeting could be directed towards them.

One example of the ''carrot not the stick'' approach my be to give some prime examples of the success achieved by record submission to date.






-- Edited by keith mills on Thursday 10th of January 2013 07:55:03 AM

Andy Bissitt wrote:

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Ian,

You might well add to this that wouldn't it be better if all the money being spent by birdwatchers twitching rarities (and not-so-rarities) was instead given to conservation.

---

Congratulations Andy in posting the most outrageous comment for many a year!

I understand you don't partake in twitching yourself but why should those of us who do stop and give the money we would have spent to conservation. I suppose in your opinion, twitching is pointless? But its something that lots of people enjoy. Why stop at twitching, why not stop foreign birding holidays, visiting 'aunty Ethel' in Cornwall (and no I don't have an aunty Ethel in Cornwall before anybody asks) or ban the use of the motor car full stop! What about football? Supporters travelling the length and breadth of the country to support thier team-a complete waste of time and money. Why not ban anything that you don't have an interest in? The world would then be such a better place-I think not.

Ian,

You might well add to this that wouldn't it be better if all the money being spent by birdwatchers twitching rarities (and not-so-rarities) was instead given to conservation, we might well have a bigger fighting fund with which to face up to the people currently hurtling us towards a wildlife black hole. Trouble is, those who see conservation as some kind of archaic nonsense will always have more money and, in fact, be running the country. The world is stuffed. No doubt.

Good comments from everybody regarding sending in records. I have been recording for about 20 years, and when Judith was the county recorder she asked to use my records for Eagley Valley surveys a couple of times, so I know how important they are.

Your comments Ian (Boote) sum up my area around Jumbles/Wayoh/Entwistle/Edgworth very well. I am lucky to see anyone else studying wildlife, except on Wayoh, but even those daily visitors do not send records in. Even a Little Egret there in 2011 was not reported, although it was photographed for the Edgworth Wildlife Calender. Unfortunately I missed it and could only report it to Steve White without a date. I have two county recorders to keep happy !

I sent my 2012 records out at the end of last week. Hope you got yours alright Ian.

As usual, Bill manages to read my mind and articulate my thoughts better than I can

Are we getting selfish? or are we just plain lazy? I always liked the saying "if you want something doing, ask a busy person"!

Its also an excuse to get out to barely watched areas and record sightings. Few of these will have records. If you read some of the planning application so called ecological reports you will be quite surprised just how little is known. You turn up some nice surprises Seaside plants in the middle of Prestwich for instance. So get recording and even if applications go ahead some good can come out of it as happened to water voles in Rochdale. Government agencies have limited resources and even less than they had.

Just to pick up on, query or add to some of the many points already raised on this thread. Ian's main point is that many of us are selfish when it comes to sending records in to the Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group (GMBRG). It seems like a very fair point to me and if a little home truth hurts to some GM birders then let's hope some good comes out of it. As Ian says there really is no excuse for most, if not all of the birders who use and benefit (for free!) from his forum to not be able to send some records in. We can all find excuses not to but if we are totally honest we could all find many reasons to help if we really made a tiny little bit of effort. A previous post mentioned modern technology as an issue but modern technology and all of the various methods that are now available to allow us to send in records also makes it much, much easier for us to keep records now than it was in "olden days" when everything was done long-hand, quite often on a filing card system. We don't know we are born with the options that we have available today and keeping records to send in to GMBRG is and let's be totally honest here, a very simple and straightforward process and if birders could only be bothered looking at what's available it should take very little extra time and effort for all of us who use this forum. Do we really all expect something for nothing? Isn't it about time that we put a little something back in return?

A point was made that nothing stands in the way of development and economic growth and the suggestion that record keeping in some circumstances might possibly be a largely futile affair. Sure not every fight can be won but equally not every one is lost either and if we gave up on every cause then why do any of us bother at all with birds and wildlife? Everyone who uses this forum will care enough to want to protect them...so why not do something about it? Many of the sites that some of us bird watch at around GM currently have varying levels of protected status. Why? Because bird watchers of earlier years have made the effort to document the birds and/or wildlife on these sites and allowed these sites to become designated as biologically important and afforded a degree of protection. Some of these sites only keep their protected status for a limited time span and they then need to be renewed but obviously this can only be done on more recent and not historical data. Can we really not be bothered to continue with this process?

I know it has been mentioned before but it's worth pointing out again that we really do need the strongest body of records that we can possibly get. It is very important that the GMBRG database has as many records on it each year as we can possibly get and for those records to be of the best quality that we can produce. Additional relevant remarks in any comments section and the use of breeding codes on records during the breeding season adds immense value to those particular records and gives us far greater ammunition to defend any birds and the sites they may use. Another purpose of having a large and high quality database of records each year is to allow us, as GM birders, to be able to produce the best quality county bird report that we possibly can each year. This important publication must accurately reflect what is going on in our county in any particular year and it goes without saying that it relies heavily on the quantity and quality of records we can all produce. I'm absolutely sure we all want our county report to be amongst the best, if not the very best.

I've often wondered if some birders are against recording because they don't understand what the GMBRG would like them to record and report? Should we record every Feral Pigeon and Meadow Pipit? Not sure how many are aware that on the home page of Ian's website there is a box half way down the right hand side showing as " Systematic County Bird List and Bird Record Details". Click on this and all species are listed and each is coded with a letter or letters indicating what records are required for each species. Quite simple. Why not look it up to see what is required for the above two mentioned species! If you feel you are not able to do all, then at least try and make a start somewhere. I'm not sure if many of us make bird recording seem much more difficult than it really is. If we can master mobile phones , cameras and all sorts of electrical gadgetry and software then bird recording really is absolute child's play!

Let's all look for reasons to get started this January and not for excuses why we can't do something. If we can look back through our 2012 records and get those in to Ian soon, then even better. If any assistance is required then Ian and Steve will I'm sure help privately via pm and there is also a specific sub-forum dedicated to the subject of "Greater Manchester Needs Your Bird Sightings" where topics can be aired and it would be great for this to have almost as much use as the sightings forum!

Please try and do your bit. Many thanks.


Bill.

Well, at least we've got a good debate going - I see this forum as multi-functional and as a valuable resource to birding on a local-level, it goes without saying, that, but I said it :) I recently resolved to begin submitting my records and now shall do so on a very regular basis. I hope my case illustrates the need for doing so, since I am a relatively new birder. My case is - I ask myself "How can anybody who calls themselves anything other than a casual birder not want to help build a picture of birding, not just in the county per se, but within specific sites and patches?" and that's why I have begun to submit records, because I want to help build that picture - I obsess over what might be at a given patch at a given time of year, but we know it's not merely about saying: On X day on the 16th January 2013 a pair of Goldeneye were present in Y' - that's more personal to myself, as, like I say, I am curious about what species might choose to spend a day or two in a certain portion of the county. about how a wading bird would be in a landlocked county etc - I am a passionate and keen urban birder, but we have such a diverse and geographically encompassing county, which probably warrants and attracts such great and diverse birdlife we're lucky to see here.

Not forgetting the overall fundamental functionality of recording - i.e, as mentioned, to present to planning committees when buildings should rear their ugly heads and want to beam down; recording breeding records to paint a picture of the future etc etc etc

Ian, my old lobby-gobbling mate, I sign every petition going, I write to MPs, I give my hard earned bread to many many wildlife appeals. Believe me, I would tie myself to anything and not eat pies for a whole month, BUT we are up against very rich, land-owning Tories who see the countryside, and OUR country in general as their personal playground to do with what the hell they want. Until this changes, I will remain a very sad, dejected, and dispirited man.
The things all of us on this forum care about means not a jot to 90% of the population. Very sadly so !

Birding and birders have changed vastly over the last 37 years I have been involved, and for me bird recording is on the edge of a blade ,which could go either way, and in my opinion its the modern technology that has lead to this, in the past most birders spent the days on the local patch recording everything, and wouldn't really care what anyone else had seen in the next town, never mind county, and would only find out in bi monthly newsletters from their local group what had been seen. What I see now as I mentioned recently in the Penny thread, I see a lot of people who follow the same path which is, look on the Mancy forum/bird guides etc find out if anythings been seen anywhere and move round to the next big thing, and then start posting this big thing on here for the next week as though they found it in the first instance etc and if nothings been recorded say at Astley Moss ,never go near the place, then when something is seen everyone is there for that particular week, and suddenly as if by magic lots of other unusual birds are found, or numbers seen, which tell me its coverage not that the birds are not there, just that the birders are not.
Look at the shore lark at Cutacre, apart from one or 2 records on here ,how many who went for the Shore lark have been back to carry on recording the place?
Also not a lot is recorded or found in what were regular patches in the past ,because no one goes ,or assumes there is nothing if its not on the Mancy forum, or worse assume that someone else can do the recording why they sit back check the phones to see the next big thing.
How many actual records are submitted from Penny? hundreds of people with bins go through the north bank circuit every week, but I don't read much in reports, showing this coverage, and most times my weekend posts can be the only ones on for a vast site like penny, and also I see the records of numbers being so incorrect due to this sticking to the north bank, how often I see records like 2 Goldeneye, when in fact there are over 20 if people would take the time to count and record what they see and move a bit further on than Horrocks Hide.
I would encourage everyone to keep records and submit what they see, otherwise why are we bothering at all, because the odd rarity although nice to see and photograph is pretty meaningless, and should be the icing on the cake to all those common bird records, that are really the ones that need to be counted, if we are going to have any ammunition to save areas and stop future developments.
Keep birding, recording and submitting those records, its the reason we are here
I am proud in the fact that since April 1976,I have submitted monthly all my records every month to both the local society (LOS) and the county recorders,even when I spent 21 weeks in hospital after Accidents,I was recording the Fieldfares in the hospital grounds from my window and submitting them.
They have got less due to work pressure, but even if I go to see a rarity like the Great Northern Diver at Horrocks flash as I wanted to photograph it, I record whatever else I see in that area that day and submit the records, in case they are of use to someone.
This is not a post against the people who spend the time they have , going for rarities. To me thats a different facet of this hobby and its up to each individual what they do with the spare time they have .same for the photographers who looks on here and fire to the next rarity to get a picture, they are most likely are never going to keep bird records apart from the photographs they have, because many of them don't even own a pair of Bins and many would not be able to identify what they are photographing without the patchers who are birding the site, but at the same time for me you have to put in to get out, so don't expect the fellow who has spent all winter getting wet ,pounding the same patch seeing very little ,to suddenly inform everyone immediately he finds a rare bird, so it can be added to some list or photographed for Bird Guides, as he may want to enjoy his deserved reward,before he spends 10 mins on the phone letting everyone know.
Anyway just keep records of the birds you see and submit them in some form to Ian. Its the least we can do, and if we can't be bothered to do that to me, it may as well not be posted on here, as the record will just dissapear when the next person sees the next waxwing and posts it.

Anyway head above the perepit once more for me ,ready for it to be knocked off and anyone who really knows me will know I have the best interest of the birds and local birding at heart.













-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Tuesday 8th of January 2013 05:16:43 PM

But it can assist the prevention of other smaller scale proposals Ian (of which there are many) or at the very least allow some mitigation work. I'm as pessimistic as you my pie-eating, butterfly loving old chum but rolling over for these @&#*$€ without trying can't be the answer? Get yourself up there and chain yourself to something...

I just read this thread after starting a seperate thread about phase 2 of the new High Speed rail link from London through the Midlands, and its "forking off" either side of the Pennines.

No amount of bird recording, or any other type of recording will stop this happening. Read this short exerpt from the Wildlife Trusts -


"High Speed Rail (HS2) - impacts on wildlife

Four Wildlife Trust reserves, 10 Sites of Special Scientific Interest (SSSIs), more than 50 ancient woodlands and numerous local wildlife sites lie in the route of the proposed High Speed Rail HS2 route.

It will fragment populations of butterflies, bats and birds, and compromise the natural movements of large mammals such as badgers that cannot cross the concrete and steel barrier of railway infrastructure.

This comes at a time when the Making Space for Nature report called for integrated, connected landscapes to link up and extend habitats for rare and endangered species. The very last thing we should be doing is creating new linear barriers to the movement of wildlife."


That, I am afraid, is the stark reality. NOTHING will stop "economic growth" in this country !

With regards the petitions Craig, I'm completely with you there, I do the same but my post was really, I suppose, aimed more at record submissions and of course I already know you submit yours ( I have them safe and sound) as do a good deal many on this forum and much appreciated they are too. They know who they are as do those who don't.

Its a personal choice and that's fine, so long as those who don't submit their sightings don't start complaining when a planning applicationn comes in for their local patch or by their house, as has recently been the case. Without records we have nothing to fight with.

I suppose I get a little frustrated too as I pay the monthly bill for this forum myself, its not a offical forum and has nothign to do with the GMBRG beyond my own personal involvement. Its not cheap either but its great to see it so popular and see so many birders enjoy using it but I ask for nothing in return other than people at least try to submit their sightings offically. The reasons sightings within posts are not extracted to be used has been explained on here many times before and I'm happy to explain again if necessary, but its not going to happen for many very valid reasons.

Speaking personally Ian, there are a number of petitions Ive signed, but I don't feel the need to post here to tell everyone when I've done it.

On the records front, well, lets just say you'll be getting mine.

Ian Campbell wrote:

---

Also signed but I don't hold out much hope of success if the poor response to a similer e-petition regarding protection for our birds of prey is anything to go by.
Cheers Ian

---

Birders are generally getting more and more selfish and that's a fact!

So wrapped up in our websites, forums, blogs, Flickr sites and more importantly basking in our own self made kudos that we forget to care (or simply never cared in the first place) about the object of our hobby/passion.

This forum has 1300 members yet how many actually take the 2 minutes it takes to sign these petitions or even bother to officially send in their bloody sightings to me; sightings which could help to prevent the next attempted loss of habitat which could well be their local patch. I look at postings on here all the time and get despondant at how important telling everyone else is about what you've seen over actually putting them to some good use. Excuses? I've heard them all. Not enough time, too busy, my sightings aren't worth it, don't get out often enough etc etc, yet I keep trying to accomodate everyone and make submitting sightings as quick and easy as posting on this forum, yet which do you think most 'birders' prefer to do?

In the early days, when I had less registered users I used to say that the forum was a very powerful tool in many respects, and it was, but with the growth of users it seems to have become all too often an advertising board for the elavasion of our own profiles. Think I'm being too harsh? I know how many (and who) have applied to formally submit their sightings via RODiS, Excel file or MapMate despite my many pleas on here and the website and (enormous thanks to those few who have) the results are very poor indeed.

So, do you think I'm being unfair? Why can some of you just not be bothered? Tell me why; I'm all ears...