The 9th Edition (December 2017) of the BOU British list is now published https://www.bou.org.uk/british-list/ and follows the International Ornithological Unions IOC World Bird List (version 7.3).
As predicted all 3 Redpolls are still countable (for the moment )
Cheers, John
John Rayner said
Mon Oct 23 12:31 PM, 2017
Dave Cropper wrote:
Hi John
Just an update for you. Lesser Redpoll was given species status by IOC in quarterly update 7.3. The lump of Mealy (or Common Redpoll as they prefer) was rejected at this stage pending further research and consensus so they upgraded Lesser Redpoll to match Arctic Redpoll species status due to a similar amount of differentiation and the fact that the BOU amongst others recognised it as a full species. As I use the IOC list for my purposes I was happy to get the tick back! ( although we are still set to lose Hudsonian Whimbrel!)
Hope that clears that up.
Thank you for that clarification Dave,
I have just looked at IOC 7.3 and it is dated 31 July 2017 so post dates both Pete's and my references. So, we keep all 3 Redpolls (for the moment). I too lose Hudsonian Whimbrel but gain a Bean Goose .
Cheers John
Dave Cropper said
Mon Oct 23 9:00 AM, 2017
Hi John
Just an update for you. Lesser Redpoll was given species status by IOC in quarterly update 7.3. The lump of Mealy (or Common Redpoll as they prefer) was rejected at this stage pending further research and consensus so they upgraded Lesser Redpoll to match Arctic Redpoll species status due to a similar amount of differentiation and the fact that the BOU amongst others recognised it as a full species. As I use the IOC list for my purposes I was happy to get the tick back! ( although we are still set to lose Hudsonian Whimbrel!)
Hope that clears that up.
John Rayner said
Sun Oct 22 10:40 PM, 2017
Confusing indeed Pete,
The IOC proposal and your Birdguides link are both dated Jan 2017 (although the original IOC paper was from Apr 2015, updated Jan 2017). I guess we wait till BOU publish the new list then all will (or may) become clear.
Cheers John.
Pete Hines said
Sun Oct 22 10:18 PM, 2017
All very confusing. Currently we are set to lose Lesser as IOC have only Common and Arctic https://www.birdguides.com/news/bou-to-adopt-ioc-world-bird-list/
Craig Higson said
Sun Oct 22 6:07 PM, 2017
Hi John, Im sure I read somewhere that they were now leaving the redpoll complex as is - but that might have been a while ago and could well have changed.
John Rayner said
Sun Oct 22 5:31 PM, 2017
Thanks Dave and Ian.
From time to time I used to refer to the 'County Systematic List' on the old website. I guess it would be time consuming to maintain this with new records but even if not up to date it was a useful archive. Is it still planned to transfer it to the new website?
Cheers John
Ian McKerchar said
Sun Oct 22 4:06 PM, 2017
There are 9 accepted records in the county, all in the 1996 influx.
dave broome said
Sun Oct 22 3:11 PM, 2017
John Rayner wrote: Has Arctic Redpoll been recorded in GM?
Hi John, several Arctic Redpoll were recorded in GM during the influx of Mealy and Arctic Redpolls to the UK that occurred in the winter of 1995/96. The first occurred at Pennington Flash found in a mist net while myself and Peter Alker were ringing on Ramsdale's Ruck. Others were found there, at the Wigan Flashes and in Atherton. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long for the next.
-- Edited by dave broome on Sunday 22nd of October 2017 04:47:55 PM
John Rayner said
Sun Oct 22 1:42 PM, 2017
For anyone with an interest in listing I have just been looking at the IOCs latest Proposed Splits/Lumps. As far as I can make out Mealy and Arctic Redpolls are the two species proposed to be lumped. But Lesser Redpoll may well follow pending future studies.
If I have this right then, when the BOU adopt IOC as the basis for the British List in January 2018, I lose one from my British List but GM lists remain unaffected (assuming the proposal is approved of course). Has Arctic Redpoll been recorded in GM?
I havent read the full paper in detail but below is the recommendation.
Cheers, John
Lump Acanthis flammea and Acanthis hornemanni into a single species
Recommendation: "Based on the genetic and genomic data, the phenotypic data, and Salomonsens (1950) conclusions regarding flammea rostrata and nominate hornemanni, we believe that the burden of proof has shifted to those who would treat flammea and hornemanni as separate species, and therefore recommend lumping A. flammea and A. hornemanni into a single species, A. flammea. Despite the genetic and genomic data, however, we recommend treating A. cabaret as a separate species, pending future studies of assortative mating and any reconsideration of this species by local authorities.
Submitted by: Nicholas A. Mason and Scott A. Taylor, Cornell University Date of proposal: 23 April 2015, revised 12 Jan. 2017
JamieDunning said
Fri Jan 18 4:32 AM, 2013
Without reading this thread in any detail before posting this (which i'm sure will come back to haunt me). I heard a rumour whilst out birding a few weeks ago that all of this will be negligible soon as the BOU is lumping Redpoll species back together. dose anyone have any more info on this? I can't seem to find anything online...
I can see however that this still useful information despite its taxonomic fluctuations! have very few notes and sketches on Arctic Redpoll with very little to no experience of them in the field. will have to read in some more detail and add to them now!
cheers all.
Tim Wilcox said
Wed Jan 16 4:59 AM, 2013
17 pages of great pics of Hornemann's in the current Birding World vol.25, no.12
Henry McGhie said
Sat Jan 5 7:21 PM, 2013
Hi- Arctic Redpoll comes in 2 forms, southern and northern. Southern is Coues' ('cows') Redpoll, C. hornemanni exilipes. It is found in Canada, northern Europe and northern Asia. Hornemann's Redpoll is C. hornemanni hornemanni, from Greenland and nearby. 'Greenland Redpoll' is a big chunky subspecies of Common Redpoll, very different to Arctic. The 2 subspecies of Arctic are very different in size and ground colour on back.
I stuck photos of an exilipes on my 'Nature Manchester' blog yesterday.
All best, Henry
Pete Hines said
Sun Dec 23 4:21 AM, 2012
Tim Wilcox wrote:
So Pete, you got your one 'true' Arctic Redpoll for when the rest get turfed back into a single species. But, er, didn't you go down the day after the failed Firecrest watch in Alex Park 2 weeks ago?
-- Edited by Tim Wilcox on Saturday 22nd of December 2012 08:59:12 PM
Well I tried, though the first attempt was aborted after managing only 120 miles in 4 hours due to various factors, blah blah blah, lets just say I was glad to get back home in one piece. I almost sacked the idea of trying again completely, though I'm glad I did try again (albeit in a spontaneous moment of twitching madness).
Who knows if earlier Arctic Redpoll records will be reviewed, eg the December 1988 Carnoustie bird which wasn't assigned to race in BB ?. Who knows if BOU will adopt the IOC redpoll lumping approach ?. What I did know that there was a still a hornemann's still showing well in Suffolk and if the lumping goes ahead then this could turn out to be another Shetland speciality. It's an insurence policy.
I've managed to catch up with the likes of Yellow-breasted Bunting and Pechora Pipit on the mainland over the years but Lanceolated Warbler and Pallas's Grasshopper Warbler still elude me in the UK and you could almost add Siberian Rubythroat to that list. You have to weigh up the pro's and con's at a personel level. I've seen several of the latter three in South and South-east Asia and at the cost of a Shetland twitch I could be in Thailand watching all three and more. I doubt I'll ever be birding in Greenland or Arctic Canada watching hornmanni on their own turf (permafrost ?) as I prefer warmer climates
-- Edited by Pete Hines on Sunday 23rd of December 2012 04:30:04 AM
-- Edited by Pete Hines on Sunday 23rd of December 2012 04:35:14 AM
Tim Wilcox said
Sat Dec 22 8:57 PM, 2012
So Pete, you got your one 'true' Arctic Redpoll for when the rest get turfed back into a single species. But, er, didn't you go down the day after the failed Firecrest watch in Alex Park 2 weeks ago?
-- Edited by Tim Wilcox on Saturday 22nd of December 2012 08:59:12 PM
Dennis atherton said
Fri Dec 21 5:09 AM, 2012
super footage, great looking bird, very pale and clean looking, to me noticably very nice in the flanks area with hardly any streaking, also around the face area too, superb bird, cheers
Pete Hines said
Thu Dec 20 6:01 AM, 2012
Early this morning the Hornemann's Arctic Redpoll showed well to a crowd of ONE...me and I spotted it with the naked eye it was so obliging. A montage of edited footage from this morning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psg9JjFu7U4
David Lumb said
Tue Dec 11 2:09 AM, 2012
Cheers for the list Jason.
I was on the Outer Hebrides a few years ago and the experienced guides suggested not even attempting to identify different subspecies when we found a flock of Redpolls.
Ian McKerchar said
Mon Dec 10 11:11 PM, 2012
David Lumb wrote:
Cheers for the list Jason.
I was on the Outer Hebrides a few years ago and the experienced guides suggested not even attempting to identify different subspecies when we found a flock of Redpolls.
I can't help thinking that's a poor attitude from 'experienced guides' David, the sort of attitude which holds birding back. Sure, sometimes "we're" guilty of trying too hard, of attempting to push identification boundaries just too far or on the 'thinnest' theories but with regards the redpoll complex, some at least are very identifiable and merely ignoring them is doing them an injustice. Many do have to be left unidentified, posing a 'bridge too far', but that's half the fun. For many birders the challenge these kind of birds presents is a driving force for them, even though there are often more questions than answers
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Monday 10th of December 2012 11:20:53 PM
JasonAtkinson said
Mon Dec 10 9:55 PM, 2012
Only 1 really Arctic Redpoll that being Hornemann's. Great things redpolls and totally baffling, not a year passes without a discussion on the taxonomic complexities of the species.
Hornemann's does indeed breed in (northern) Greenland so will be what you have heard termed Greenland Arctic Redpoll. They are very rare indeed on Mainland Britain and rare enough on the northern isles to boot.
Exilipes is the Scandinavian race which is now termed Coues's Arctic Redpoll. These were involved in the 1995/1996 major influx into the UK, which brough no less that 9 into the county in the early part of 1996 (of which I found one!).
Craig Higson said
Mon Dec 10 7:44 AM, 2012
So is Hornemanns the one that I've heard reffered to as Greenland Arctic? Or is that the Exilipes - Sorry - havent had time to read the article in Ians link in full yet!
Also, I'm curious as to what the likely taxonomy was of the Pennington Flash Arctic Redpoll in 1995/6? Presumably it would have been one of the scandinavian race? Not that anyone probably considered the possibillity of it being one race or another back then....or did they? Again to me it was just C. Hornemanni.
I hate taxonomy. Whatever happened to Darwins theory of speciation???
Mike Passant said
Mon Dec 10 6:00 AM, 2012
Hi Craig,
I'm no expert by any means on the Redpoll complex, and as you doubtless know it's something of a taxonomic minefield with much still to be worked out (and probably much best left well alone in view of the intergrades/indeterminates on record), but as I understand it Coue's and Hornemann's are generally treated as two forms/ subspecies of Arctic Redpoll. Common Redpoll includes several subspecies (one of which we know as the rather familiar "Mealy"), and Lesser Redpoll makes up what is regarded as the third Redpoll species. Different taxonomic treatments have more subspecies than others and it's been quite well covered in depth in the literature.
I have no experience at all of Hornemanni, but saw several (at least two, some thought three) examples of what we came to understand as Coues (with their small neat bills and buffy faces) when we had a Redpoll fest up here a couple of winters ago and were able to spend a good few (shivering) hours over some weeks comparing (and arguing) over a mix of Lessers, Mealies and Arctics. Perhaps Hornemann's has a heftier bill and may be bulkier or with heavier streaking; - I don't know and haven't read up on it, but there are experienced birder's out there who seem to be able to confidently separate these two forms of "Arctic" in the field.
Craig Higson said
Mon Dec 10 5:41 AM, 2012
Cheers Ian
Ian McKerchar said
Mon Dec 10 5:38 AM, 2012
They're still currently treated as the same species anyway Craig; all Arctic Redpolls
A fairly decent treatment of the various races here though:
Now maybe I'm just showing my ignorance here, but can someone explain to me the difference between an Arctic Redpoll and a Hornemann's Arctic Redpoll. I must admit I don't keep too upto date with taxonomy so maybe I've missed something, but last time I looked Arctic Redpoll was also carduelis hornemanni. Is Hornemann's a subspecies? If it is what's the difference?
edited for spelling.
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Sunday 9th of December 2012 09:43:12 PM
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Sunday 9th of December 2012 09:43:59 PM
As predicted all 3 Redpolls are still countable (for the moment
Cheers, John
Thank you for that clarification Dave,
I have just looked at IOC 7.3 and it is dated 31 July 2017 so post dates both Pete's and my references. So, we keep all 3 Redpolls (for the moment). I too lose Hudsonian Whimbrel but gain a Bean Goose .
Cheers John
Hi John
Just an update for you. Lesser Redpoll was given species status by IOC in quarterly update 7.3. The lump of Mealy (or Common Redpoll as they prefer) was rejected at this stage pending further research and consensus so they upgraded Lesser Redpoll to match Arctic Redpoll species status due to a similar amount of differentiation and the fact that the BOU amongst others recognised it as a full species. As I use the IOC list for my purposes I was happy to get the tick back! ( although we are still set to lose Hudsonian Whimbrel!)
Hope that clears that up.
The IOC proposal and your Birdguides link are both dated Jan 2017 (although the original IOC paper was from Apr 2015, updated Jan 2017). I guess we wait till BOU publish the new list then all will (or may) become clear.
Cheers John.
https://www.birdguides.com/news/bou-to-adopt-ioc-world-bird-list/
From time to time I used to refer to the 'County Systematic List' on the old website. I guess it would be time consuming to maintain this with new records but even if not up to date it was a useful archive. Is it still planned to transfer it to the new website?
Cheers John
There are 9 accepted records in the county, all in the 1996 influx.
-- Edited by dave broome on Sunday 22nd of October 2017 04:47:55 PM
If I have this right then, when the BOU adopt IOC as the basis for the British List in January 2018, I lose one from my British List but GM lists remain unaffected (assuming the proposal is approved of course). Has Arctic Redpoll been recorded in GM?
I havent read the full paper in detail but below is the recommendation.
Cheers, John
Lump Acanthis flammea and Acanthis hornemanni into a single species
Recommendation:
"Based on the genetic and genomic data, the phenotypic data, and Salomonsens (1950) conclusions regarding flammea rostrata and nominate hornemanni, we believe that the burden of proof has shifted to those who would treat flammea and hornemanni as separate species, and therefore recommend lumping A. flammea and A. hornemanni into a single species, A. flammea. Despite the genetic and genomic data, however, we recommend treating A. cabaret as a separate species, pending future studies of assortative mating and any reconsideration of this species by local authorities.
Submitted by: Nicholas A. Mason and Scott A. Taylor, Cornell University
Date of proposal: 23 April 2015, revised 12 Jan. 2017
I heard a rumour whilst out birding a few weeks ago that all of this will be negligible soon as the BOU is lumping Redpoll species back together.
dose anyone have any more info on this? I can't seem to find anything online...
I can see however that this still useful information despite its taxonomic fluctuations!
have very few notes and sketches on Arctic Redpoll with very little to no experience of them in the field.
will have to read in some more detail and add to them now!
cheers all.
C. hornemanni
Hornemann's Arctic Redpoll - C.h. hornemanni
Coues's Arctic Redpoll - C.h. exilipes
C. flammea
Greenland Redpoll - rostrata
Icelandic Redpoll - islandica
Common/Mealy Redpoll - flammea
Lesser Redpoll - cabaret
I stuck photos of an exilipes on my 'Nature Manchester' blog yesterday.
All best,
Henry
Well I tried, though the first attempt was aborted after managing only 120 miles in 4 hours due to various factors, blah blah blah, lets just say I was glad to get back home in one piece. I almost sacked the idea of trying again completely, though I'm glad I did try again (albeit in a spontaneous moment of twitching madness).
Who knows if earlier Arctic Redpoll records will be reviewed, eg the December 1988 Carnoustie bird which wasn't assigned to race in BB ?. Who knows if BOU will adopt the IOC redpoll lumping approach ?. What I did know that there was a still a hornemann's still showing well in Suffolk and if the lumping goes ahead then this could turn out to be another Shetland speciality. It's an insurence policy.
I've managed to catch up with the likes of Yellow-breasted Bunting and Pechora Pipit on the mainland over the years but Lanceolated Warbler and Pallas's Grasshopper Warbler still elude me in the UK and you could almost add Siberian Rubythroat to that list. You have to weigh up the pro's and con's at a personel level. I've seen several of the latter three in South and South-east Asia and at the cost of a Shetland twitch I could be in Thailand watching all three and more. I doubt I'll ever be birding in Greenland or Arctic Canada watching hornmanni on their own turf (permafrost ?) as I prefer warmer climates
-- Edited by Pete Hines on Sunday 23rd of December 2012 04:30:04 AM
-- Edited by Pete Hines on Sunday 23rd of December 2012 04:35:14 AM
-- Edited by Tim Wilcox on Saturday 22nd of December 2012 08:59:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psg9JjFu7U4
I was on the Outer Hebrides a few years ago and the experienced guides suggested not even attempting to identify different subspecies when we found a flock of Redpolls.
I can't help thinking that's a poor attitude from 'experienced guides' David, the sort of attitude which holds birding back. Sure, sometimes "we're" guilty of trying too hard, of attempting to push identification boundaries just too far or on the 'thinnest' theories but with regards the redpoll complex, some at least are very identifiable and merely ignoring them is doing them an injustice. Many do have to be left unidentified, posing a 'bridge too far', but that's half the fun. For many birders the challenge these kind of birds presents is a driving force for them, even though there are often more questions than answers
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Monday 10th of December 2012 11:20:53 PM
Just to confuse you below is the redpoll list:
Hornemann's Arctic Redpoll - hornemanni
Coues's Arctic Redpoll - exilipes
Greenland Redpoll - rostrata
Icelandic Redpoll - islandica
Common/Mealy Redpoll - flammea
Lesser Redpoll - cabaret
Cheers
Jason
Exilipes is the Scandinavian race which is now termed Coues's Arctic Redpoll. These were involved in the 1995/1996 major influx into the UK, which brough no less that 9 into the county in the early part of 1996 (of which I found one!).
Also, I'm curious as to what the likely taxonomy was of the Pennington Flash Arctic Redpoll in 1995/6? Presumably it would have been one of the scandinavian race? Not that anyone probably considered the possibillity of it being one race or another back then....or did they? Again to me it was just C. Hornemanni.
I hate taxonomy. Whatever happened to Darwins theory of speciation???
Hi Craig,
I'm no expert by any means on the Redpoll complex, and as you doubtless know it's something of a taxonomic minefield with much still to be worked out (and probably much best left well alone in view of the intergrades/indeterminates on record), but as I understand it Coue's and Hornemann's are generally treated as two forms/ subspecies of Arctic Redpoll.
Common Redpoll includes several subspecies (one of which we know as the rather familiar "Mealy"), and Lesser Redpoll makes up what is regarded as the third Redpoll species. Different taxonomic treatments have more subspecies than others and it's been quite well covered in depth in the literature.
I have no experience at all of Hornemanni, but saw several (at least two, some thought three) examples of what we came to understand as Coues (with their small neat bills and buffy faces) when we had a Redpoll fest up here a couple of winters ago and were able to spend a good few (shivering) hours over some weeks comparing (and arguing) over a mix of Lessers, Mealies and Arctics. Perhaps Hornemann's has a heftier bill and may be bulkier or with heavier streaking; - I don't know and haven't read up on it, but there are experienced birder's out there who seem to be able to confidently separate these two forms of "Arctic" in the field.
A fairly decent treatment of the various races here though:
merseybirders.webs.com/documents/Arctic-Redpoll-ID-revisited.pdf
edited for spelling.
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Sunday 9th of December 2012 09:43:12 PM
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Sunday 9th of December 2012 09:43:59 PM