"Arrivals and Rivals - A Birding Oddity: A Year of Competitive Twitching" by Adrian Riley was also published in 2004
Ive read this second book, a very interesting read, some of the stories about his competition with Lee Evans and some of the stuff that went on is quite eye opening, a good read,
Mike Crawley said
Sun Apr 8 5:38 PM, 2012
Pete,
the film is based on the book "The Big Year: A Tale of Man, Nature and Fowl Obsession" by Mark Obmascik was published in 2004.
"Arrivals and Rivals - A Birding Oddity: A Year of Competitive Twitching" by Adrian Riley was also published in 2004
They are very different books.
For bird racing, day lists, etc. I include birds heard only (if sufficiently distinctive).
I've never met anyone would would dream of a "heard only" life tick
Paul Wilson said
Sat Apr 7 8:50 PM, 2012
Personally, I won't count a heard only if it is a new tick on a list. For example, I have heard Cuckoo at Elton and included it in my GM year list as I had seen Cuckoo in GM before. I did not include it on my Elton life list though.
There was a piece on TV a couple of years ago about a blind birder. He kept a life list and all the birds on it were heard only!
Phil Owen said
Sat Apr 7 2:23 PM, 2012
Paul Wilson wrote:
Personally, I won't count a heard only if it is a new tick on a list. For example, I have heard Cuckoo at Elton and included it in my GM year list as I had seen Cuckoo in GM before. I did not include it on my Elton life list though.
There was a piece on TV a couple of years ago about a blind birder. He kept a life list and all the birds on it were heard only!
Like I say Paul, I only included it on my patch list for submitting the actual record to the BTO and via the forum as it was certainly a notable record for the area.
I too always have to actually see a bird before it goes down on any list such as Life, Year or Borough. I don't particularly like taking "calls only" but the Cuckoo was one that I had no choice with.
I did chase the damn thing around for a few days in order to get a sighting but everytime I thought I'd got near it, it called from the opposite direction.
Got to take my hat off to the blind man by the way!!
-- Edited by Phil Owen on Saturday 7th of April 2012 02:24:03 PM
Phil Owen said
Sat Apr 7 6:50 AM, 2012
Rob Thorpe wrote:
Phil Owen wrote:
Now where's that Cuckoo?
One of the BTO satellite tracked birds has just crossed the med back to Spain, so shouldn't be long now
www.bto.org/
No Rob, that's right. Even one or two records already down South in March.
Only one or two though as an exception to the rule, at least until the real fun starts!!
Rob Thorpe said
Sat Apr 7 6:27 AM, 2012
Phil Owen wrote:
Now where's that Cuckoo?
One of the BTO satellite tracked birds has just crossed the med back to Spain, so shouldn't be long now
www.bto.org/
Phil Owen said
Sat Apr 7 5:52 AM, 2012
Ian McKerchar wrote:
They did indeed used to be used Phil but that was not the point of the forum and was against my better judgement. Imagine not only having to moderate one of the busiest birding forums in the county but also having to extract all the bird data from it and then enter it into the county database one by one . It was also purposefully never acknowledged on this forum that data was being used in this way.
I'll be in touch about the new form of record submission
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Friday 6th of April 2012 10:29:52 PM
Thanks for the clarification on this Ian, and yes, please do let me know about the new form of submission when it becomes available.
I can understand the difficulties of trying to pull out so much information off the Forum (must be a nightmare) but to be honest I was totally unaware things had changed.
Now where's that Cuckoo?
paul burke said
Sat Apr 7 5:29 AM, 2012
In my humble opinion; it needs to be seen. Tawny Owl is still missing off my list for 5 years
JasonAtkinson said
Sat Apr 7 4:52 AM, 2012
Quite differing opinions of just hear vs must see. If I hear a Redstart singing I make a point of trying to view it as they are simply stunning, but a Garden Warbler is as far from Redstart as you could get so the song will do.
Cheers Jason
Phil Owen said
Sat Apr 7 4:46 AM, 2012
Ian, I understand your point totally about listing and recording being seperate issues.
Indeed, I myself have never counted calls only on any of my personal lists (as stated) but have noted them purely for patch records and submissions.
I was certainly under the impression that sightings from this forum were in fact used towards the County Report.
Page 2 of the 2008 report under list of contributors and acknowledgements, I quote "includes contributors to the www.manchesterbirding.com where these have been used".
Maybe this is no longer the case and I was therefore unaware?
Ian McKerchar said
Sat Apr 7 4:27 AM, 2012
Phil, records on the forum are not utilised for the county records and database (and so not used for the county bird report). I merely set it up as an information service and nothing more.
The GMBRG has always pleaded for records (see my website which also offers the methods of submission) and there is a very imminent development in getting more county birders to contribute their bird records (hence I suppose my picking up this point ).
I think we seem to confusing listing with actual bird recording though. Recording birds you hear is essential for scientific study of many forms but actual 'listing' has little to do with this. Yes, if a Corncrake appears on your patch and it's only heard it imperative it's noted and submitted as heard or seen is immaterial in its importance for the site, county and indeed bird. Would I count it in my personal site or other list though? No. I've heard them in the county and never included it yet the record appeared in the county bird report! As I've said though, what you count on your personal lists is rightly up to you and not for anyone else to dictate but for comparative listing as is found on the website, some guidelines should and indeed are, set.
Phil Owen said
Sat Apr 7 3:17 AM, 2012
Ian McKerchar wrote:
Phil Owen wrote:
Not even on a patch list John?
A good example is when I heard a Cuckoo at Ringway last year.
I entered it on my patch list because a call is certainly good enough to record the bird as being present at the location. I felt on this occasion it was important to record the bird for the area based on a "call only".
The said bird however never made it on my Manchester Borough or Year List unfortunately, as obviously a sighting would have been required.
Like you say though, no official rules.
The point about personal lists is, frankly, unimportant scientifically of course though I wouldn't count a bird for a site list I didn't see. So when that Cetti's finally sings from deep within some reedbed at Pennington Flash I'll have to stake it out for days! As far as lists on Manchester Birding are concerned, all birds (bar those on day lists) should be seen to be counted, which allows for our level playing field and for lists to be compared directly.
Regarding your Cuckoo Phil, you rightly felt it was important to record the bird but was the record formally submitted to the Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group? If not then its importance is surely lost?
Ian,
The BTO records were certainly submitted but I also reported it on here as well so that the information could be taken directly from the forum.
If you would like future submissions for the Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group to be done via an alternative route, I will be only too happy to oblige.
If it's important, then only for patch records and nothing else, surely a call will suffice??
Without the call there would be no record at all.
Over to you Ian!
Joey Eccles said
Sat Apr 7 3:07 AM, 2012
Just to add another opinion, I think if it is a common bird then I am usually happy to tick it just on hearing it. The way I see it is that I could either tick it on call, or spend quite possibly a large amount of time trying to locate the bird for the same result. For instance I wouldn't be prepared to spend 20 minutes for a wren to show in a bunch of brambles. I would move on and if I see another it's a bonus, but I'll still count the original bird. With scarcer (whether locally or nationally) birds I think it's important to see the bird but only for personal satisfaction rather than to stand up to convention - although sexing the bird is a bonus . So when i think the rewards are worth it I'll try to seek the bird out - after all didn't it turn out that there was a Great tit emitting a marsh tit call at Pennington a few years back?
Ian McKerchar said
Sat Apr 7 2:50 AM, 2012
Phil Owen wrote:
Not even on a patch list John?
A good example is when I heard a Cuckoo at Ringway last year.
I entered it on my patch list because a call is certainly good enough to record the bird as being present at the location. I felt on this occasion it was important to record the bird for the area based on a "call only".
The said bird however never made it on my Manchester Borough or Year List unfortunately, as obviously a sighting would have been required.
Like you say though, no official rules.
The point about personal lists is, frankly, unimportant scientifically of course though I wouldn't count a bird for a site list I didn't see. So when that Cetti's finally sings from deep within some reedbed at Pennington Flash I'll have to stake it out for days! As far as lists on Manchester Birding are concerned, all birds (bar those on day lists) should be seen to be counted, which allows for our level playing field and for lists to be compared directly.
Regarding your Cuckoo Phil, you rightly felt it was important to record the bird but was the record formally submitted to the Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group? If not then its importance is surely lost?
Pete Astles said
Sat Apr 7 2:25 AM, 2012
Thanks for replies folks
Phil Owen said
Sat Apr 7 2:21 AM, 2012
John Rayner wrote:
Pete Astles wrote:
Yeah but chaps whats the official rules?
That's the point Pete, there are no 'official' rules. Just generally accepted convention.
Personally I record heards in my notebook but don't count them on any list at all, from garden list to world list.
Cheers, John
Not even on a patch list John?
A good example is when I heard a Cuckoo at Ringway last year.
I entered it on my patch list because a call is certainly good enough to record the bird as being present at the location. I felt on this occasion it was important to record the bird for the area based on a "call only".
The said bird however never made it on my Manchester Borough or Year List unfortunately, as obviously a sighting would have been required.
Like you say though, no official rules.
John Rayner said
Sat Apr 7 1:42 AM, 2012
Pete Astles wrote:
Yeah but chaps whats the official rules?
That's the point Pete, there are no 'official' rules. Just generally accepted convention.
Personally I record heards in my notebook but don't count them on any list at all, from garden list to world list.
Cheers, John
Pete Astles said
Sat Apr 7 1:31 AM, 2012
Yeah but chaps whats the official rules? in the film it was ok to hear the bird and it when on their list. For myself I agree I don't count anything unless I can clearly see and identfy it. But I wondered how it works officially in the UK?
Thanks
Peter
Phil Owen said
Sat Apr 7 12:49 AM, 2012
The only time I have ever taken calls only is on a patch list and Bird races where calls only are accepted as part of the rules.
I have never taken them for Life, Year or even Borough Lists but at the end of the day, I suppose it's all down to the individual and what they are happy with.
Each to their own!
Paul Heaton said
Sat Apr 7 12:49 AM, 2012
Keeping lists is always a personal thing, but your life list is special.
I suppose each birders is different, but I want to see the bird and SEE it well, enough to make notes and be certain it is ,what I believe it to be, age it, sex it, be certain that it is worthy of adding to your list, slight glimpse or quick view is not enough.
Two true stories. Scilles and a Grey cheeked Thrush twitch 100,s of birders, all waiting for the bird, reports of it been in a field with a white horse! anyway a bird gave a brief show and 20-30 birders shout there it is, a small crew ticked it off and walked away... the bird was a dunnock !!
York town centre, Chimney Swift twitch, the bird came screaming through the town centre just before dusk, everyone ticked it and went home, I went back the next morning because my views were not good enough, the bird flew through again, it gave better views at dinner, and proved to be a Swift with missing tail feathers, many a birder had to scrub it off there list.
It has to be seen and seen well.
Also sat on Gugh Isles of Scilly a few years ago watching two birders either side of the plantation, both with tape lures, both birders convinced they were getting a call back from a bird, when in fact they were both listening to tapes. With use of more and more tape lures ,bird apps and mobile phones in the field, you may have to question heard only in the future.
But lists are personal and you can make them what ever you want, but for me, a lifer has to be Seen and seen well.
Keep Birding.
Ian McKerchar said
Sat Apr 7 12:36 AM, 2012
This has always been the norm for me too Rob.
Rob Thorpe said
Sat Apr 7 12:09 AM, 2012
Only on day-lists do I count "heard onlys", for any other list the bird must be seen!
Ian McKerchar said
Fri Apr 6 11:59 PM, 2012
JasonAtkinson wrote:
As a year tick a call/song suffices.
A poor show indeed
JasonAtkinson said
Fri Apr 6 11:36 PM, 2012
As a year tick a call/song suffices. A nice view for a lifer though.
Cheers Jason
Ian McKerchar said
Fri Apr 6 10:28 PM, 2012
They did indeed used to be used Phil but that was not the point of the forum and was against my better judgement. Imagine not only having to moderate one of the busiest birding forums in the county but also having to extract all the bird data from it and then enter it into the county database one by one . It was also purposefully never acknowledged on this forum that data was being used in this way.
I'll be in touch about the new form of record submission
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Friday 6th of April 2012 10:29:52 PM
Pete Astles said
Fri Apr 6 10:10 PM, 2012
I watched the big year the other night. Its about three American birders trying to be the best re number of birds in a year with all the competition. Its a comedy and its quite funny Steve Martin is in it and two other famous actors. It did have similarities with the British book arrivals and rivals especially the top birder character which in the UK was Lee Evans. Not sure whether this film was inspired by this book or the other way round? I would not recommend it from a birding perspective but if you want a reasonable film with a birding aspect its ok. A couple of things though greater spotted woodpeckers its seems are really rare over there a once in a life time thing. The main thing though in the US you counted a bird if you only heard it so you did not need to see it also. It that the same here in the UK for the formal lists? Or do you have to see it?
"Arrivals and Rivals - A Birding Oddity: A Year of Competitive Twitching" by Adrian Riley was also published in 2004
Ive read this second book, a very interesting read, some of the stories about his competition with Lee Evans and some of the stuff that went on is quite eye opening, a good read,
the film is based on the book "The Big Year: A Tale of Man, Nature and Fowl Obsession" by Mark Obmascik was published in 2004.
"Arrivals and Rivals - A Birding Oddity: A Year of Competitive Twitching" by Adrian Riley was also published in 2004
They are very different books.
For bird racing, day lists, etc. I include birds heard only (if sufficiently distinctive).
I've never met anyone would would dream of a "heard only" life tick
There was a piece on TV a couple of years ago about a blind birder. He kept a life list and all the birds on it were heard only!
Like I say Paul, I only included it on my patch list for submitting the actual record to the BTO and via the forum as it was certainly a notable record for the area.
I too always have to actually see a bird before it goes down on any list such as Life, Year or Borough. I don't particularly like taking "calls only" but the Cuckoo was one that I had no choice with.
I did chase the damn thing around for a few days in order to get a sighting but everytime I thought I'd got near it, it called from the opposite direction.
Got to take my hat off to the blind man by the way!!
-- Edited by Phil Owen on Saturday 7th of April 2012 02:24:03 PM
No Rob, that's right. Even one or two records already down South in March.
Only one or two though as an exception to the rule, at least until the real fun starts!!
One of the BTO satellite tracked birds has just crossed the med back to Spain, so shouldn't be long now
www.bto.org/
Thanks for the clarification on this Ian, and yes, please do let me know about the new form of submission when it becomes available.
I can understand the difficulties of trying to pull out so much information off the Forum (must be a nightmare) but to be honest I was totally unaware things had changed.
Now where's that Cuckoo?
Cheers
Jason
Indeed, I myself have never counted calls only on any of my personal lists (as stated) but have noted them purely for patch records and submissions.
I was certainly under the impression that sightings from this forum were in fact used towards the County Report.
Page 2 of the 2008 report under list of contributors and acknowledgements, I quote "includes contributors to the www.manchesterbirding.com where these have been used".
Maybe this is no longer the case and I was therefore unaware?
The GMBRG has always pleaded for records (see my website which also offers the methods of submission) and there is a very imminent development in getting more county birders to contribute their bird records (hence I suppose my picking up this point
I think we seem to confusing listing with actual bird recording though. Recording birds you hear is essential for scientific study of many forms but actual 'listing' has little to do with this. Yes, if a Corncrake appears on your patch and it's only heard it imperative it's noted and submitted as heard or seen is immaterial in its importance for the site, county and indeed bird. Would I count it in my personal site or other list though? No. I've heard them in the county and never included it yet the record appeared in the county bird report! As I've said though, what you count on your personal lists is rightly up to you and not for anyone else to dictate but for comparative listing as is found on the website, some guidelines should and indeed are, set.
Ian,
The BTO records were certainly submitted but I also reported it on here as well so that the information could be taken directly from the forum.
If you would like future submissions for the Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group to be done via an alternative route, I will be only too happy to oblige.
If it's important, then only for patch records and nothing else, surely a call will suffice??
Without the call there would be no record at all.
Over to you Ian!
The point about personal lists is, frankly, unimportant scientifically of course though I wouldn't count a bird for a site list I didn't see. So when that Cetti's finally sings from deep within some reedbed at Pennington Flash I'll have to stake it out for days! As far as lists on Manchester Birding are concerned, all birds (bar those on day lists) should be seen to be counted, which allows for our level playing field and for lists to be compared directly.
Regarding your Cuckoo Phil, you rightly felt it was important to record the bird but was the record formally submitted to the Greater Manchester Bird Recording Group? If not then its importance is surely lost?
Not even on a patch list John?
A good example is when I heard a Cuckoo at Ringway last year.
I entered it on my patch list because a call is certainly good enough to record the bird as being present at the location. I felt on this occasion it was important to record the bird for the area based on a "call only".
The said bird however never made it on my Manchester Borough or Year List unfortunately, as obviously a sighting would have been required.
Like you say though, no official rules.
That's the point Pete, there are no 'official' rules. Just generally accepted convention.
Personally I record heards in my notebook but don't count them on any list at all, from garden list to world list.
Cheers, John
Thanks
Peter
I have never taken them for Life, Year or even Borough Lists but at the end of the day, I suppose it's all down to the individual and what they are happy with.
Each to their own!
I suppose each birders is different, but I want to see the bird and SEE it well, enough to make notes and be certain it is ,what I believe it to be, age it, sex it, be certain that it is worthy of adding to your list, slight glimpse or quick view is not enough.
Two true stories.
Scilles and a Grey cheeked Thrush twitch 100,s of birders, all waiting for the bird, reports of it been in a field with a white horse! anyway a bird gave a brief show and 20-30 birders shout there it is, a small crew ticked it off and walked away...
the bird was a dunnock !!
York town centre, Chimney Swift twitch, the bird came screaming through the town centre just before dusk, everyone ticked it and went home, I went back the next morning because my views were not good enough, the bird flew through again, it gave better views at dinner, and proved to be a Swift with missing tail feathers, many a birder had to scrub it off there list.
It has to be seen and seen well.
Also sat on Gugh Isles of Scilly a few years ago watching two birders either side of the plantation, both with tape lures, both birders convinced they were getting a call back from a bird, when in fact they were both listening to tapes.
With use of more and more tape lures ,bird apps and mobile phones in the field, you may have to question heard only in the future.
But lists are personal and you can make them what ever you want, but for me,
a lifer has to be Seen and seen well.
Keep Birding.
A poor show indeed
Cheers
Jason
I'll be in touch about the new form of record submission
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Friday 6th of April 2012 10:29:52 PM