the HBW volume 1 was published in 1992 and although they are fantastic the species accounts in the earlier volumes are a shadow of what they are after volume 6-7. There an old Poyser monograph I read a few years back by Davis and Renner, which was pretty approachable and quite entertaining [for a monograph] on Penguins of the world. although the taxonomy will now be out dated in here, it does discuss at some length the pit falls of Spheniscidae taxonomy..
Why are we talking about Penguins?
Tim Wilcox said
Thu Aug 20 7:05 PM, 2015
Rob Creek wrote:
Hi Andy, all Penguins are the same flavour as far as I'm aware of, but there are around 5 or 6 different plumaged bars knocking around!
But thanks for backing my point up that infact sometimes non-birding folk are sometimes correct with what they think they've seen and by contacting birder friends (or photo proof as you say) does sometimes result in the ID being a positive one as the features described all match.
Hi Tim, according to a website I was reading earlier, it is stated that the Little Penguin family is comprised of the Little Blue Penguin and another species still under debate, this being the Northern Little Penguin or White-flippered Penguin, and the same website also states that the Crested Penguin family comprises of 6 living species... the Fiordland Penguin, the Snares Penguin, the Erect-crested Penguin, the Royal Penguin, the Macaroni Penguin, ...and the Rockhopper Penguin of which it says there are 4 species so this could be more divisions for new species under debate. Interesting to find out which way it goes!
I think the Handbook of the Birds of the World is definitive across its 16 volumes and additional volume of new species and updates. Penguins do not number amongst the new species. The long introduction to Penguins goes into the debate over sub-species. I prefer to rely on this rather than information on the internet
The Owl institute website states there are at least 250 species of Owl, the other sites seem to suggest 216 as the more widely recognised number of species.
It's a good job the original observer wasn't trying to ask for help with ID'ing an Owl or a Penguin, it would still be on hold whilst the experts clarify the the debate.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Thursday 20th of August 2015 01:44:54 PM
I think the Handbook of the Birds of the World is definitive across its 16 volumes and additional volume of new species and updates. Penguins do not number amongst the new species updated in the supplementary volume. The long introduction to Penguins goes however go into the debate over sub-species. I prefer to rely on this work rather than information on the internet. As I said owls are divided into two families so add them together.
Mike Chorley said
Thu Aug 20 6:30 PM, 2015
Tim Wilcox wrote:
Whilst we cannot say what the bird was we can probably say what it was not. It was not a Penguin of which there are 17 species and 26 taxa with 3 species threatened (Handbook of the Birds of the World) - and of course paperback books and a line of casual wear.
.......you forgot the dastardly Marvel Comics villain, Tim -in all his various plumages
Rob Creek said
Thu Aug 20 5:41 PM, 2015
Roger Baker 3 wrote:
Rob Creek wrote:
Hi Andy, all Penguins are the same flavour as far as I'm aware of, but there are around 5 or 6 different plumaged bars knocking around! ...............................................................................................................................................................
There are 4 flavours .... Original, Mint, Toffee and Orange.
Also been a couple of odd sightings over the years which both turned out to be "stringers" .... Cake Bars and Mini Rolls !
Roger.
-- Edited by Roger Baker 3 on Thursday 20th of August 2015 04:41:29 PM
I thought they were extinct like the Waitaha Penguin, must be extremely rare vagrants in the Denton area!
Andy Isherwood said
Thu Aug 20 5:32 PM, 2015
thanks for replying Roger I was also going to confirm the 4 varieties, definately got a lot more experience of the Chocolate version having only seen 1 species of Penguin, in Australia.
Roger Baker 3 said
Thu Aug 20 4:37 PM, 2015
Rob Creek wrote:
Hi Andy, all Penguins are the same flavour as far as I'm aware of, but there are around 5 or 6 different plumaged bars knocking around! ...............................................................................................................................................................
There are 4 flavours .... Original, Mint, Toffee and Orange.
Also been a couple of odd sightings over the years which both turned out to be "stringers" .... Cake Bars and Mini Rolls !
Roger.
-- Edited by Roger Baker 3 on Thursday 20th of August 2015 04:41:29 PM
Rob Creek said
Thu Aug 20 1:40 PM, 2015
Hi Andy, all Penguins are the same flavour as far as I'm aware of, but there are around 5 or 6 different plumaged bars knocking around!
But thanks for backing my point up that infact sometimes non-birding folk are sometimes correct with what they think they've seen and by contacting birder friends (or photo proof as you say) does sometimes result in the ID being a positive one as the features described all match.
Hi Tim, according to a website I was reading earlier, it is stated that the Little Penguin family is comprised of the Little Blue Penguin and another species still under debate, this being the Northern Little Penguin or White-flippered Penguin, and the same website also states that the Crested Penguin family comprises of 6 living species... the Fiordland Penguin, the Snares Penguin, the Erect-crested Penguin, the Royal Penguin, the Macaroni Penguin, ...and the Rockhopper Penguin of which it says there are 4 species so this could be more divisions for new species under debate. Interesting to find out which way it goes!
The Owl institute website states there are at least 250 species of Owl, the other sites seem to suggest 216 as the more widely recognised number of species.
It's a good job the original observer wasn't trying to ask for help with ID'ing an Owl or a Penguin, it would still be on hold whilst the experts clarify the the debate.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Thursday 20th of August 2015 01:44:54 PM
Tim Wilcox said
Thu Aug 20 11:27 AM, 2015
Whilst we cannot say what the bird was we can probably say what it was not. It was not a Penguin of which there are 17 species and 26 taxa with 3 species threatened (Handbook of the Birds of the World) - and of course paperback books and a line of casual wear.
It was not an owl of which there are 16 species, 63 taxa of Barn-Owls (Tytoninae) and 189 species, 548 taxa of Typical Owls (Strigidae) (HBoW)
None of these things I knew before I looked them up
Andy Isherwood said
Thu Aug 20 10:09 AM, 2015
I am only posting to agree that it is very nearly (if not completely) impossible to ever be 100% certain of the ID of a bird seen by non birders, many of whom think they have a really good knowledge of birds.
Growing up in a very rural area me and my (much!) elder brother were well known as birders and often got phone calls re strange birds. We did follow a lot of these up, many escapes (budgie's, parrots, even the odd American Black Vulture!) and also a lot of misidentifications (lots of Hoopoes which were Jays, Mistle Thrushes, the odd Marsh Harrier and buzzard reported as Golden or White Tailed Eagles as they were deemed "massive" by the inexperienced and even a Nutcraker which was unfortunatlely just a starling!) but also led to us confirming (amongst others) White Stork, Red Backed Shrike's, Wrynecks, Bitterns etc. The main things that often stood out were that non birders really struggle with correctly estimating size of birds and also they (usually) only see the dominant colours of a bird and not the full plumage.
As an extreme example I remember reading somewhere (again a long time ago) of an RSPB officer called to a garden to see the strange bird with Black, White and Red around the face that was visiting the bird table and even when questioned these were the only features the houseowner gave. Expecting to see a Goldfinch on arrival he was somewhat suprised when an escaped Crowned Crane was walking about on the back lawn and feeding at the bird table!
The only positive in recent times is that a lot of non birder sightings are backed up by photographs as nearly everyone seems to have digital cameras which allow decent records to be gained (scared to even type ie Dusky Thrush in Leigh as it still hurts!). So as Rob says, yes there are a lot of mentions of rare birds being found by non-birders all the time and these often turn out to be genuine, however what we don't hear about is the number of pictures, enquiries that claim to be of something rare that turn out to be a common species which will outnumber the others massively.
and surely if we are claiming Penguin biscuits as a species then the different flavours deserve full species status in there own right
Mike Chorley said
Wed Aug 19 11:01 PM, 2015
Ian McKerchar wrote:disappointed we didn't get to know how many penguin species there were though!)
According to Gruson's 'A Checklist of the Bird's of the World' there are 18, Ian
Not entirely impossible thought, Ian, We know that it was seen in Spain and that it was white with pink legs, but the bill wasn't seen or noticed so the most likely options would be:
1) Greater Flamingo with its' back to the observer or asleep (I'd forgotten just how pale they can be in the wild until I caught up with part 1 of 'Nature's Greatest Dancers' on BBC IPlayer today)
2) White Stork (again with it's back to the observer as that long red bill alone would give it away) showing a remarkable degree of symmetrical leucism in both sets of primaries
3) Albino Little Egret (pink bare parts (legs) instead of black)
4) Albino Spoonbill (again with head turned away or asleep)
5) 'Something Else' larger than a small child - Pelican?
Ian McKerchar said
Wed Aug 19 10:58 PM, 2015
Only disappointed that I probably only ever knew half those penguin species and a couple of dozen of the owls; perhaps I'd best stick to James Bond
Rob Creek said
Wed Aug 19 10:45 PM, 2015
Being truly honest I've never known the exact number of Penguin species, only around 15 was as good as I could've given you and that it has always been documented as being a different number, between 17-19 different species seems to be the number now, but again no definitive number.
Same with the Owls, I always thought there was 216 recognised species, whereas nowadays various sites say over 220, and a recent documentary suggested there could be nearly 240 but I don't know.
There, you can't be disappointed now Ian.
Oh and I'm in total agreement with the Stork analogy too, and if you take into account that Flamingo's are used in a wide range of logo's for hotels, resorts, casino's, ice-cream, gym's, an airline, etc, the list goes on, I'd still expect a lot of people to know what it is.
Roger Baker 3 said
Wed Aug 19 10:44 PM, 2015
Interrupted my James Bond viewing for my little googling finger ..... 17 species of penguin .... or 18 if you include the biscuit !
Roger.
Ian McKerchar said
Wed Aug 19 10:14 PM, 2015
The original observer initially thought the bird was a stork and using Rob's analogy, you'd think they might know one of those as they're pretty iconic themselves, if only from margarine tubs or carrying babies...
Oh, and I've changed my mind anyway; I don't think its near impossible to identify it from the description and am now going for straight impossible, though I'm keeping an open mind to any possibilities including any of the world's flamingo species (who knew there were six, not me; disappointed we didn't get to know how many penguin species there were though!)
Rob Creek said
Wed Aug 19 9:26 PM, 2015
Joel Tragen wrote:
Mike Chorley wrote:
Rob Creek wrote:
I understand your points there Mike, but surely the whole appearance of a Flamingo would make it identifiable even to those who don't know the first thing about birds??? The bill alone would give it away.
Only if you know what a flamingo's bill looks like Rob - in which case you'd know it was a flamingo
I agree a huge bright pink bird is one thing but if it was a lot paler and sat in a kids swimming pool I doubt I would know what it was at a first glance.
Mike / Joel ... Personally I don't agree, in my view (and this is only my view) I think there will be more people than you realise that know what a Flamingo looks like, having seen one somewhere in their lives possibly at a zoo, on TV, in an encyclopaedia or an animal book of some description either at home, a library, or even school, what they might not know is which of the 6 species it actually is. To further that, a good example is if you showed a non-birder a picture of a Penguin (any species) they'd probably know it was a Penguin, despite many of them looking totally different. Chances are they've seen one in one of the mediums I mentioned above, they might not know the particular species of it though. So what you are both saying is (using this Penguin example)... that's if you know what a Penguin looks like, essentially yes you're right, but are there really so many people that don't know what it looks like? In my view a Flamingo is an iconic species that would be fairly easily recognised.
Ian you are totally right with what you say that it is near impossible from such a vague description to give any idea what it might be, and also that you can't underestimate what people 'fail to notice' well what about not underestimating what people 'do' notice? I'd like to bet a good deal of non-birders have been responsible for a lot of sightings of rarities because of what they 'did' notice. In fact we read it sometimes in a weekly round up etc where they say a non-birder phoned them to say they'd seen a bird with such and such a feature or plumage that turned out to be a good sighting.
Not a definitive answer as it is purely discussion, but that's my view on those 2 points.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Wednesday 19th of August 2015 09:29:37 PM
Joel Tragen said
Tue Aug 18 8:53 PM, 2015
Mike Chorley wrote:
Rob Creek wrote:
I understand your points there Mike, but surely the whole appearance of a Flamingo would make it identifiable even to those who don't know the first thing about birds??? The bill alone would give it away.
Only if you know what a flamingo's bill looks like Rob - in which case you'd know it was a flamingo
I agree a huge bright pink bird is one thing but if it was a lot paler and sat in a kids swimming pool I doubt I would know what it was at a first glance.
Mike Chorley said
Tue Aug 18 8:17 PM, 2015
Rob Creek wrote:
I understand your points there Mike, but surely the whole appearance of a Flamingo would make it identifiable even to those who don't know the first thing about birds??? The bill alone would give it away.
Only if you know what a flamingo's bill looks like Rob - in which case you'd know it was a flamingo
Ian McKerchar said
Mon Aug 17 11:35 PM, 2015
I think the main point in this thread for me just reiterates how difficult, nay impossible, it is to even attempt to confirm any identification from such an (understandably) brief description. It's all pure speculation on our behalf and I never ceased to be amazed at what the 'non-birding' public perceive they saw and how that relates to the identifications the occasionally come to. Don't underestimate how 'those who don't know the first thing about birds' fail to notice features which seem obvious to birders, because we know what to look for and it all seems pretty obvious to us; but it would, wouldn't it.
Therefore, the answer to Gervase's original question of "has anyone an idea of what it could have been" would probably have been an unfortunate no on my behalf but it's been an interesting read regardless
Rob Creek said
Mon Aug 17 11:19 PM, 2015
I understand your points there Mike, but surely the whole appearance of a Flamingo would make it identifiable even to those who don't know the first thing about birds??? The bill alone would give it away.
Mike Chorley said
Mon Aug 17 10:42 PM, 2015
Rob Creek wrote:
Charles Coutts wrote:
Talking to my Daughter tonight on the phone,all she can remember was it was all white,but she thinks it had pinkish legs and it was very big,bigger than the kids who use the pool(by comparison). I wish she had never told me.
...all white Joel, as stated in the above quote. She remembers it being all white.
And with pink legs, which would rule out any Egret species. If anything it sounds like an escaped Flamingo. Captive birds frequently lose most of their pink pigmentation despite supplements in their food. It would also explain why it found a man-made pool quite acceptable - at least before the guests arrived
(Sort of crossed with Joel's post)
Joel Tragen said
Mon Aug 17 10:34 PM, 2015
Ah yes must have missed it. You are probally right with egret then. What has me stumped is the pink legs then.
Rob Creek said
Mon Aug 17 10:31 PM, 2015
Charles Coutts wrote:
Talking to my Daughter tonight on the phone,all she can remember was it was all white,but she thinks it had pinkish legs and it was very big,bigger than the kids who use the pool(by comparison). I wish she had never told me.
...all white Joel, as stated in the above quote. She remembers it being all white.
Joel Tragen said
Mon Aug 17 9:25 PM, 2015
I agree rob but it isn't meationed (or from what I can see) that it is all white. And that is a key feature. Another one would be what colour the bill was. And I agree size is not always a reliable factor especially to what is or around it or what you are used to seeing in that area.
Rob Creek said
Mon Aug 17 8:59 PM, 2015
I've seen plenty of Storks in southern Spain, especially looking out from a hillside villa window over the rooftops at just how many were nesting on them. It's just my opinion but if the bird in the old thread below was all white as described by the observer, surely its not likely to be a White Stork. Wouldn't the black be seen quite easily? It was certainly evident when I saw them. If it was all white, then I'd expect it to be one of the Egrets, and to further that, some Little Egrets are not that little, or at least don't appear little when up fairly close. Just a thought.
Joel Tragen said
Sun Aug 16 9:12 PM, 2015
Hi I know this is an old topic but just happened to come across it and wanted to say if it had pink legs and bigger then the young kids then it is probally a stork and last year while in Spain I saw many many storks and one was hanging around a water park after it had closed.
Charles Coutts said
Fri Sep 2 7:41 PM, 2011
Talking to my Daughter tonight on the phone,all she can remember was it was all white,but she thinks it had pinkish legs and it was very big,bigger than the kids who use the pool(by comparison). I wish she had never told me.
JamieDunning said
Fri Sep 2 12:43 AM, 2011
Depending on the area, White stork are quite possible. very common in parts on Portugal?
Tim Wilcox said
Thu Sep 1 8:34 PM, 2011
Kids' ability to recognise what they've seen in books is superb and given Storks' urban familiarity in Continental Europe why not?
Mike Passant said
Thu Sep 1 8:22 PM, 2011
On balance of probability (rather than any stork species) Little Egret would be a fair bet. Ask her please if it was white with a black bill.
Charles Coutts said
Thu Sep 1 6:58 PM, 2011
My Daughter is on holiday in Salou Spain,On the phone this Morning she said that there was a Stork in the Hotel Childrens pool,It was early Morning before anyone was about She knows nothing about Birds,but to put my mind at rest,Has anyone any ideas as what it could have been.
Why are we talking about Penguins?
I think the Handbook of the Birds of the World is definitive across its 16 volumes and additional volume of new species and updates. Penguins do not number amongst the new species updated in the supplementary volume. The long introduction to Penguins goes however go into the debate over sub-species. I prefer to rely on this work rather than information on the internet. As I said owls are divided into two families so add them together.
I thought they were extinct like the Waitaha Penguin, must be extremely rare vagrants in the Denton area!
I was also going to confirm the 4 varieties, definately got a lot more experience of the Chocolate version having only seen 1 species of Penguin, in Australia.
But thanks for backing my point up that infact sometimes non-birding folk are sometimes correct with what they think they've seen and by contacting birder friends (or photo proof as you say) does sometimes result in the ID being a positive one as the features described all match.
Hi Tim, according to a website I was reading earlier, it is stated that the Little Penguin family is comprised of the Little Blue Penguin and another species still under debate, this being the Northern Little Penguin or White-flippered Penguin, and the same website also states that the Crested Penguin family comprises of 6 living species...
the Fiordland Penguin,
the Snares Penguin,
the Erect-crested Penguin,
the Royal Penguin,
the Macaroni Penguin,
...and the Rockhopper Penguin of which it says there are 4 species so this could be more divisions for new species under debate.
Interesting to find out which way it goes!
The Owl institute website states there are at least 250 species of Owl, the other sites seem to suggest 216 as the more widely recognised number of species.
It's a good job the original observer wasn't trying to ask for help with ID'ing an Owl or a Penguin, it would still be on hold whilst the experts clarify the the debate.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Thursday 20th of August 2015 01:44:54 PM
It was not an owl of which there are 16 species, 63 taxa of Barn-Owls (Tytoninae) and 189 species, 548 taxa of Typical Owls (Strigidae) (HBoW)
None of these things I knew before I looked them up
Growing up in a very rural area me and my (much!) elder brother were well known as birders and often got phone calls re strange birds. We did follow a lot of these up, many escapes (budgie's, parrots, even the odd American Black Vulture!) and also a lot of misidentifications (lots of Hoopoes which were Jays, Mistle Thrushes, the odd Marsh Harrier and buzzard reported as Golden or White Tailed Eagles as they were deemed "massive" by the inexperienced and even a Nutcraker which was unfortunatlely just a starling!) but also led to us confirming (amongst others) White Stork, Red Backed Shrike's, Wrynecks, Bitterns etc. The main things that often stood out were that non birders really struggle with correctly estimating size of birds and also they (usually) only see the dominant colours of a bird and not the full plumage.
As an extreme example I remember reading somewhere (again a long time ago) of an RSPB officer called to a garden to see the strange bird with Black, White and Red around the face that was visiting the bird table and even when questioned these were the only features the houseowner gave. Expecting to see a Goldfinch on arrival he was somewhat suprised when an escaped Crowned Crane was walking about on the back lawn and feeding at the bird table!
The only positive in recent times is that a lot of non birder sightings are backed up by photographs as nearly everyone seems to have digital cameras which allow decent records to be gained (scared to even type ie Dusky Thrush in Leigh as it still hurts!). So as Rob says, yes there are a lot of mentions of rare birds being found by non-birders all the time and these often turn out to be genuine, however what we don't hear about is the number of pictures, enquiries that claim to be of something rare that turn out to be a common species which will outnumber the others massively.
and surely if we are claiming Penguin biscuits as a species then the different flavours deserve full species status in there own right
According to Gruson's 'A Checklist of the Bird's of the World' there are 18, Ian
Not entirely impossible thought, Ian, We know that it was seen in Spain and that it was white with pink legs, but the bill wasn't seen or noticed so the most likely options would be:
1) Greater Flamingo with its' back to the observer or asleep (I'd forgotten just how pale they can be in the wild until I caught up with part 1 of 'Nature's Greatest Dancers' on BBC IPlayer today)
2) White Stork (again with it's back to the observer as that long red bill alone would give it away) showing a remarkable degree of symmetrical leucism in both sets of primaries
3) Albino Little Egret (pink bare parts (legs) instead of black)
4) Albino Spoonbill (again with head turned away or asleep)
5) 'Something Else' larger than a small child - Pelican?
Same with the Owls, I always thought there was 216 recognised species, whereas nowadays various sites say over 220, and a recent documentary suggested there could be nearly 240 but I don't know.
There, you can't be disappointed now Ian.
Oh and I'm in total agreement with the Stork analogy too, and if you take into account that Flamingo's are used in a wide range of logo's for hotels, resorts, casino's, ice-cream, gym's, an airline, etc, the list goes on, I'd still expect a lot of people to know what it is.
Roger.
Oh, and I've changed my mind anyway; I don't think its near impossible to identify it from the description and am now going for straight impossible, though I'm keeping an open mind to any possibilities including any of the world's flamingo species (who knew there were six, not me; disappointed we didn't get to know how many penguin species there were though!)
Mike / Joel ... Personally I don't agree, in my view (and this is only my view) I think there will be more people than you realise that know what a Flamingo looks like, having seen one somewhere in their lives possibly at a zoo, on TV, in an encyclopaedia or an animal book of some description either at home, a library, or even school, what they might not know is which of the 6 species it actually is.
To further that, a good example is if you showed a non-birder a picture of a Penguin (any species) they'd probably know it was a Penguin, despite many of them looking totally different. Chances are they've seen one in one of the mediums I mentioned above, they might not know the particular species of it though. So what you are both saying is (using this Penguin example)... that's if you know what a Penguin looks like, essentially yes you're right, but are there really so many people that don't know what it looks like?
In my view a Flamingo is an iconic species that would be fairly easily recognised.
Ian you are totally right with what you say that it is near impossible from such a vague description to give any idea what it might be, and also that you can't underestimate what people 'fail to notice' well what about not underestimating what people 'do' notice? I'd like to bet a good deal of non-birders have been responsible for a lot of sightings of rarities because of what they 'did' notice. In fact we read it sometimes in a weekly round up etc where they say a non-birder phoned them to say they'd seen a bird with such and such a feature or plumage that turned out to be a good sighting.
Not a definitive answer as it is purely discussion, but that's my view on those 2 points.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Wednesday 19th of August 2015 09:29:37 PM
I agree a huge bright pink bird is one thing but if it was a lot paler and sat in a kids swimming pool I doubt I would know what it was at a first glance.
Only if you know what a flamingo's bill looks like Rob - in which case you'd know it was a flamingo
Therefore, the answer to Gervase's original question of "has anyone an idea of what it could have been" would probably have been an unfortunate no on my behalf but it's been an interesting read regardless
And with pink legs, which would rule out any Egret species. If anything it sounds like an escaped Flamingo. Captive birds frequently lose most of their pink pigmentation despite supplements in their food. It would also explain why it found a man-made pool quite acceptable - at least before the guests arrived
(Sort of crossed with Joel's post)
...all white Joel, as stated in the above quote. She remembers it being all white.
If it was all white, then I'd expect it to be one of the Egrets, and to further that, some Little Egrets are not that little, or at least don't appear little when up fairly close.
Just a thought.
I wish she had never told me.
very common in parts on Portugal?
She knows nothing about Birds,but to put my mind at rest,Has anyone any ideas as what it could have been.