Thanks very much Dave

Ian McKerchar wrote:


At the end of the day Den, without this thread, the opportunity for that dialogue may not have come, relationships between parties may have worsened and the mosslands themselves could ultimately suffer. Its been well worth the typing Den



I think Ian's comment sums up this debate and I also think that Dennis was correct in starting this post in the first place.

The fact that Stephen Cartwright wanted some discussion between various people and groups concerning possible future work on the mosses is a step in the right direction.

I have moaned a lot about the LWT [ justifiable in my opinion] over the years and not just on this forum but to be honest they have also done some great work on the mosses and hopefully will continue to do so.

Lets remember, Its good to talk!!!



-- Edited by Dave Thacker on Wednesday 23rd of March 2011 09:20:36 PM

Thanks Ian,

As they say without struggle there is no progress and like you say at least there is now some channels open for discussion between the LWT and you, no-one can say we are not a passionate bunch Astley moss is a superb area and the thought of opening up the mosses to much with to many paths sends a chill down my spine,

To end on a good note, Its almost time for the Cuckoos to return to the mosses, superb, my favourite time of year

Ian McKerchar wrote:

---

All I will say Dennis is that like any other forum on the Internet, don't take everything you read at face value (from either side!). Comments are personal opinion and not necessarily factually correct unless otherwise stated. LWT can't be blamed for the loss of Tree Pipits as they declined well before any tree felling and disappeared from Croxdens under their own steam too. I think their work on the mosses is essential otherwise we'd loose them (the mosses, not LWT!) but the lack of prior information dissemination has created misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Hopefully we are now working forward to correct these problems, we'll see but it will be very easy in my opinion to go too far and do too much on the mosses and for this at least, open dialogue with LWT will be essential.

At the end of the day Den, without this thread, the opportunity for that dialogue may not have come, relationships between parties may have worsened and the mosslands themselves could ultimately suffer. Its been well worth the typing Den

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Wednesday 23rd of March 2011 08:08:29 AM

---

All I will say Dennis is that like any other forum on the Internet, don't take everything you read at face value (from either side!). Comments are personal opinion and not necessarily factually correct unless otherwise stated. LWT can't be blamed for the loss of Tree Pipits as they declined well before any tree felling and disappeared from Croxdens under their own steam too. I think their work on the mosses is essential otherwise we'd loose them (the mosses, not LWT!) but the lack of prior information dissemination has created misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Hopefully we are now working forward to correct these problems, we'll see but it will be very easy in my opinion to go too far and do too much on the mosses and for this at least, open dialogue with LWT will be essential.

At the end of the day Den, without this thread, the opportunity for that dialogue may not have come, relationships between parties may have worsened and the mosslands themselves could ultimately suffer. Its been well worth the typing Den

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Wednesday 23rd of March 2011 08:08:29 AM

Thanks Ian, i agree, This thread did not go as i wanted it too, a lot seems to have happened in the past i did not know about, i was asked by Stephen to post his Emails and his responses to questions and he was hoping to get good advice for the future from the people who know the area best, i genuinly did not know about these past issues, I had the best intensions as im sure you already know to bring all the right parties together to help Steer the LWT in the right direction

Best Dennis

Okay, I think this thread has gone far enough and has unfortunately out lived its use.

Gavin, I certainly find your most recent comments and the tone in which I read them personally, to be quite hostile and unnecessary. I'm unsure as to whether you know Astley Moss or not but so far, the work of LWT there has been both entirely necessary and positive. Without it the entire site would now be a huge birch woodland! It is important to remember that all Stephens comments were via private email and may not have originally been intended for public airing but either way he was trying to be helpful using the information he had to hand. Perhaps in hindsight a more formal route should have been undertaken by all parties.

Either way I have taken the time to contact LWT personally regarding the matter and have met with openess and encouraging responses. Wheels are in motion and there's more to come on the matter so at least some good has come from the thread

As and when I have further information it will be published on the Manchester Birding website.

I had a phone call from Steven Cartwright this evening (it was brief as I was making the tea) but he said he was taking a back seat on this from now on.

having asked a question originally I think it is only fair to comment. The situation is, unfortunately, much as I feared.


Several e-mails seem to have been sent to different people all rather vague and with none of them answering any subsequent questions,

see original one :


"We (LWT) are currently working on a funding bid to carry out access improvements and habitat management on the Chat Moss area
.....
and asking us:

to provide a short letter of support that we can send off with the bid stating how important the sites are for wildlife and how you support our efforts to improve them

next to Judith:

"I am currently aiding the mosslands team in their bid for funding to carry out works within the Chat Moss area. I am not sure how much you already know about this project"

alarm bells continue to be rung ever louder as we hear that although they "At the moment we haven't drawn up any plans whatsoever" e-mails contain phrases such as:

"it would seem a shame to start installing great big paths everywhere"

and finally the latest:

"so that even if worst comes to worst and we cant agree on plans we can at the very least explain the reasoning behind them"




So as I see it after all this, the position is very simple, Mr Cartwright:

what exactly are your proposals?
I do not believe that you have none, but, in the absence of a firm plan what are the options you are considering?


How can we "know about this project" if you cannot provide details?


My experience of funding bids is that they would normally want to know 1) how much money you wanted and 2) what you were going to use it for at the very least, it would only seem sensible that you could provide the same prior to anyone providing their support.


Instead of obfuscation, evasion and double speak please clearly set out the options before you and ask people to comment and feedback in a co-ordinated manner so that you can honestly say that you have consulted with the key stakeholders rather than trying to elicit a number of open ended letters of support without giving any detail.


For the record my personal opinion is that you should leave well alone, I don't want "great big paths" or any other "improvements" to a truly wild site that stands as an oasis for both resident and migrating birds in this part of the country.

Gavin

A Reply from LWT, cheers Dennis


With regards to comments from Mr Berry this is exactly the reason that we want local birders to be involved early on so that even if worst comes to worst and we cant agree on plans we can at the very least explain the reasoning behind them. There obviously seems to be an amount of ill feeling towards the trust from certain people which, whilst not great for us, clearly shows that people are very passionate about the area. There seems little point in continuing in a slanging match about events that have taken place in the past as regardless of the positives/negatives of any past work, it has already taken place now. We would genuinely like to hear from anyone who cares about the site as there is absolutely no point whatsoever us working there if no one is ever going to visit it.

With regards to the comments of Mr Thacker - 'its just my point is that making an area more open or accessible to the public normally will affect the wildlife that lives there'. This is a fair comment and again is the reason that we want to hear from people regarding their views as we need to make sure we get the balance right between improving access and ensuring that the mossland retains the characteristics that make us love it so much I.e. its feel of wilderness and the wildlife that lives there.

I hope that stimulates further debate, as I have said before anyone who wants to can feel free to contact me, I will be more than glad to hear from them!

Best wishes,

Stephen.

Thats very Sad Pete, i did not know about this, the knowledge of birders on this site never ceases to impress me, i wish they had listened in the past, i was hoping to create a bridge between the LWT and the knowledgeable birders on here, i did not know they had burnt some bridges in the past,

Its a great pity LWT didn't consult birders before they completely destroyed the area on Chat Moss which once held what was probably the largest concentrated Jack Snipe roost in the whole of the COUNTRY.
When I asked them why they had done the work without consulting anybody,their lame excuse was that they were trying to attract Water Voles to the area
Water voles are not that rare on the mosses and to do what LWT did is inexcusable.
LWT's tunnel vision for the mosslands is to re-create as much peat as possible,with as far as I can see,no regard whatsoever for the wildlife-Peat is king.Whilst I have no wish to see the remnant mossland disappear to farmland,whilst lining several companies pockets with big profits from peat extraction,what bits are left should be managed sympathetically for the benefit of wildlife as well as peat re-generation,a point LWT so far seem to ignored.When several years ago they cleared ALL the trees off Astley Moss East,they also got rid of the Tree Pipts which used to breed there as the habitat was no longer suitable,Their excuse for clearing all the trees was they were drinking too much water and slowing down the moss re-generation!!,why couldn't a few trees have been left?Again NO consultation with local birders.

Thanks a lot Dave

I have to admit that one of the main reasons that I have visited the mosses for many years is as Stephen Cartwright mentions is the wildness of the place. In years gone by I could go for months without seeing another person now I sometimes see more birders than birds.

Please don't think that I am being selfish or anti social as that is certainly not the case, its just my point is that making an area more open or accessible to the public normally will affect the wildlife that lives there.

It makes a pleasant change that the LWT are asking for the opinions of the regulars that visit the area as normally any emails concerning the renewing of permits or asking about ongoing work that is taking place that are sent to them are not answered.

I will be contacting Stephen at the LWT shortly and thanks to Dennis for putting this on the forum.

A little more info from LWT reguarding there ideas and hopes they have to get some sound advice from Astley moss regulars that know the area best to help work out what is best suited for the future of the mossland reguarding what is best for the wildlife in the area

Hi Dennis,

Thank you for your help with this, I really appreciate it.

At the moment we haven't drawn up any plans whatsoever which is why we desperately need the thoughts of users of the sites. We regularly get comments that one of the aspects users of the site greatly appreciate is how wild they feel. With this is mind it would seem a shame to start installing great big paths everywhere, not to mention the fact that we don't want to adversely affect wildlife. Having said that however we believe that these sites are very important and should be enjoyed by as wide a range of people as possible and therefore be as accessible as possible. Obviously we need to find the right balance and ensure that we get it right first time around which is why we are asking for comments from everyone, particularly people who already know and love the site. Currently with Astley Moss we give out permits for people to visit the site. This is simply because mosslands can be very dangerous if you don't know your way around and it allows us to give the brief health and safety warning. We would appreciate any comments as to whether people feel this should continue or whether we should open access to everyone to visit the site without first contacting us.

If people would like we could arrange a date to visit to the sites to discuss access issues and any other thoughts they might have regarding the future of the area?

Best regards,

Stephen Cartwright
Wildlife Trust for Lancashire, Manchester & North Merseyside.


Anyone who would like to show there support, ideas or concerns are greatly appreciated and can contact me on here or direct to Stephen Cartwright at LWT on

scartwright@lancswt.org.uk

Thanks Dennis

Thanks very much Judith, a lot more info than i have, It sounds like he is very happy to hear our thoughts, ideas and the like, He mentioned asking for help from local birders and it all seems like a positive start to me, hopefully they will get there funding bid

Incidentally, in the March 2011 issue of Lancashire Magazine there is an article about the Astley Moss shoot with an interview with its gamekeeper. My husband read it at the dentist so haven't seen it myself, but he got the name of the gamekeeper right!

I also received this email below from the same Steven Cartwright (he is a part time assistant apparently):
Dear Mrs Smith,
I hope you do not mind me emailing you, my name is Stephen Cartwright and I work for the Lancashire Wildlife Trust. I am currently aiding the mosslands team in their bid for funding to carry out works within the Chat Moss area. I am not sure how much you already know about this project as I know you have had involvement with both Thom Dalimore and Chris Miller in the past. If you already know all about the project please skip this next bit!
The project would be (initially) for five years and would involve the improvement of raised bog habitat particularly within the Astley Moss and Cadishead Moss areas. In addition a conservation officer would be responsible for helping landowners within the wider Chat Moss area apply for Higher Level Stewardship to expand the work outside of these two sites. A community engagement officer would also be employed and tasked with carrying out education visits, setting up volunteer and friends of groups and running events. A key part of this would be improving access.
It would be fantastic if we could call upon the guidance of yourself and the GMBRG, specifically with regard to your thoughts upon access. I am sure you are very busy but it would be fantastic to meet up if possible to discuss this or perhaps to get together a few members of your group and meet on site? I think it is very important that local birders are involved early on to ensure the project is a success! I only work part time however so if you reply by email I will do my best to get back to you as soon as possible.
Best regards,
Stephen Cartwright,
Local Nature Reserve Assistant,
Wildlife Trust for Lancashire, Manchester & North Merseyside.

I have replied to him saying that I was glad the trust had sought to engage with the voluntary sector, which had not always been the case in the past (as we all know) and giving him a list of the most eminent mossland birders, to enquire whether he had contacted them, as I didn't want to duplicate contacts. I await a reply.
Actually, I have never met Mr Miller or Mr Dallimore to my knowledge, but my email contact with the former was not exactly fruitful!

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Thursday 17th of March 2011 10:00:14 PM

Thanks Ian,


I have also mentioned your concerns and i will reply with responses, hopefully will can build a bridge between us Gmbirders and the LWT, Stephen is open to any questions or concerns and hopefullly we can push him in the right direction to preserve and maintain the moss best to suit the wildlife


to

Ian McKerchar wrote:

---

I have to say that as it's a local patch of mine (both Astley Moss and Croxdens Peat Works), somewhere I've now been visiting for a rather ridiculous sounding (considering I'm such a young lad!) 31 years, I am intrigued as to what the 'access improvements' the LWT mention are

I have been very (very) impressed by their work on Astley and Bedford Moss and fully support it but occasionally (and it has been the case previously) the opinion of local birders, those with the most comprehensive knowledge of the site, has been overlooked and the entirely necessary short term impact of the work needed to achieve their long term goal at these sites has not been communicated to the locals, leading to a slight conflict of interests.

---

No probelm at all Gavin, i have forwarded your questions and will reply with more info as soon as i have it, probably tommorow night,

Best Dennis

Gavin Delaney wrote:

---

happy to do my bit but would rather like to know exactly what is meant by "access improvements and habitat management " before I do so, have they got plans they can publish?

---

I have to say that as it's a local patch of mine (both Astley Moss and Croxdens Peat Works), somewhere I've now been visiting for a rather ridiculous sounding (considering I'm such a young lad!) 31 years, I am intrigued as to what the 'access improvements' the LWT mention are

I have been very (very) impressed by their work on Astley and Bedford Moss and fully support it but occasionally (and it has been the case previously) the opinion of local birders, those with the most comprehensive knowledge of the site, has been overlooked and the entirely necessary short term impact of the work needed to achieve their long term goal at these sites has not been communicated to the locals, leading to a slight conflict of interests.

happy to do my bit but would rather like to know exactly what is meant by "access improvements and habitat management " before I do so, have they got plans they can publish?

Thank you for reading this, Today i received a letter from Stephen Cartwright, the head officer for the Lancashire Wildlife Trust, LWT, he is looking for some support to show the interest we all have in these superb mosslands, all he needs is a few letters of encouragement, the more the better, Rather than tell you the key points please read the letter i recieved below Hi Dennis, I'm emailing you to ask a very cheeky question. We (LWT) are currently working on a funding bid to carry out access improvements and habitat management on the Chat Moss area - between the east lancs road and the M62. Specifically work will focus on Astley Moss and Cadishead Moss. These sites host a wealth of wildlife, particularly birds such as Willow tit, Yellowhammer, Cuckoo, Curlew, Snipe etc and I'm sure you will have visited Astley Moss at some point. I wondered whether, as a keen birdwatcher and photographer, you would be willing to provide a short letter of support that we can send off with the bid stating how important the sites are for wildlife and how you support our efforts to improve them. If you are happy to and you know of any other birdwatchers (or anyone) who may be interested please will you forward my details to them, it would be greatly appreciated. All the best, Stephen Cartwright, Wildlife Trust for Lancashire, Manchester & North Merseyside. scartwright@lancswt.org.uk Thanks Very Very much to anyone that takes the time to send a letter no matter how small to the LWT on the above email address, Please show support to help them get a funding bid to help preserve and manage Astley, Chat and Cadishead moss's for us all, as i know this place holds a place in the hearts of lots of manchester birders, me included