It's all good fun(except that it is a lot of money) I don't really think there is anything between the lot. I would have bought the Swaro 8x32 if RSPB Comwy would have given me a discount, as looking outside the shop I thought they were great. I ended up going to Rochdale 3 days on the run and spending ages with the Swaros and Zeiss . I nearly tossed a coin in the air at the end, but the Zeiss suit my hands better, and I was a little iffy on the 3Dish effect of the Swaros.
The Leica were great also, but had 1mm less eye relief, as I wear specs, I did not want to take the risk for that money that weeks down the road, that it was causing problems. I am glad I chose 8x32(my Opticron are 8x42) as they are have proved to be just the right weight and feel for me.
Our lead birder loves 10x42(B & L), but I cannot really hold 10x steady.
You seen a wise old(young)bird, Craig, so I guess you will not be rushed or pressured. Just get what in the end feels right for you.
Perhaps you should wait until you have tried the EDG's Perhaps a visit to martin mere is called for as they have some, plus all the others?
http://www.at-infocus.co.uk/nikon.html
Enjoy the tension
Cheers
Geoff
JOHN TYMON said
Fri Oct 29 7:52 AM, 2010
Craig Higson wrote:
Martyn Jones wrote:
So what are you gonna get then Craig?
Honestly - dunno.
I've used Leica stuff for years now and really like it so am obviously drawn to their Bins. Plus when I looked through them they were brilliant. But, I also like Nikon and wouldnt mind trying these EDG bins. Problem is with these and the Swaros is that They really are very very expensive (ok so they all are but these are even £200 more than the Leicas in some shops). Also when I've looked through Swaro's in the past I've found their eyecups a bit 'odd' feeling. Zeiss - not really had a good look through any yet. Must admit the 'aesthetics' dont inspire much but if they feel and perform OK I'll have to see.
The things people have written above have helped a bit, but I suspect I'll be in the shop before I know.
The zeiss 10 x 42 FL ,even though they may not have the kudos os swars.or Leica ,are the lightest most comfy bins to hold of any I have had,and optically not much different to leica hd which i compared last week with another birder,and he agreed there was no difference. I has you know had the Leica 8x40BN and for me apart from wieght nowt were near them back 10 years,but a good trade in at in focus £400,and the zeiss on offer at £1200,meant I got a new pair of superb bins for £800. A no brainerAlso for me they have the best eye relief of any bins for none glasses wearers,I get eye strain bad due to work and they have 4 definate clicks on the eyecups.
Craig Higson said
Thu Oct 28 10:37 PM, 2010
Martyn Jones wrote:
So what are you gonna get then Craig?
Honestly - dunno.
I've used Leica stuff for years now and really like it so am obviously drawn to their Bins. Plus when I looked through them they were brilliant. But, I also like Nikon and wouldnt mind trying these EDG bins. Problem is with these and the Swaros is that They really are very very expensive (ok so they all are but these are even £200 more than the Leicas in some shops). Also when I've looked through Swaro's in the past I've found their eyecups a bit 'odd' feeling. Zeiss - not really had a good look through any yet. Must admit the 'aesthetics' dont inspire much but if they feel and perform OK I'll have to see.
The things people have written above have helped a bit, but I suspect I'll be in the shop before I know.
Martyn Jones said
Thu Oct 28 9:55 PM, 2010
So what are you gonna get then Craig?
Craig Higson said
Wed Oct 27 8:54 PM, 2010
Geoff Walton wrote:
Hi Craig,
I bought a pair of Zeiss 8x32 last year, and they are fantastic. I differed between these and the Swaros for days.
About cheaper ones, whilst we would all agree with Ian, I have to say, that my Opticron Imagic 8x40 are very fine bins. They were great at low light at Seahouses Harbour last year. One of "we three" has a pair as well as the latest Swaros, and agrees with me - also John the Chadkirk Warden had a pair before his Leicas, and also agrees(sorry to quote you in absentia John), so you might like to have a look through them Craig.
Cheers for that Geoff, but I'm afraid that I'm in full agreement with Ian on this one. The 'mid range' bins just dont compare to the top end ones.
I know some people think its snobbery, but once youve owned a pair of Zeiss, Leica, Nikon or Swaro's I think the difference between these and the mid ranges is very noticeable. The only exception would be the 8x32 Porro Prisms than Nikon used (maybe still do) to make - I think they were SE's or something. I looked through these once and they were excellent and 'only' around the £400 mark.
I once owned a pair of Opticron bins and for what I paid they were great, and If I ever needed a backup pair I'd certainly consider them. But, having compared the more recent Leicas and Swaro's with my old BA's there was a huge difference between them. Combined with the weight factor it was enough to persuade me to start saving pennies.
Geoff Walton said
Wed Oct 27 7:36 PM, 2010
Hi Craig,
I bought a pair of Zeiss 8x32 last year, and they are fantastic. I differed between these and the Swaros for days.
About cheaper ones, whilst we would all agree with Ian, I have to say, that my Opticron Imagic 8x40 are very fine bins. They were great at low light at Seahouses Harbour last year. One of "we three" has a pair as well as the latest Swaros, and agrees with me - also John the Chadkirk Warden had a pair before his Leicas, and also agrees(sorry to quote you in absentia John), so you might like to have a look through them Craig.
Craig Higson said
Tue Oct 19 8:55 PM, 2010
Rob Thorpe wrote:
Some guy down at the Wigan Flashes a few weeks ago was telling me he'd ordered a pair of binoculars on the internet (or "tinternet" as he called it) for the bargain price of £15.00! He informed me that as they are larger than my Nikons he should be able to see further. I can't remember the name of the website, but if I see him again I'll ask...
-- Edited by Rob Thorpe on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 12:01:45 PM
Yeah Cheers Rob - wouldnt mind trying some of them 10-80x56 bins - the most powerful in the world I believe!
I must say I agree with John about some bins being almost too bright. The image becomes almost un-natural.
But, thats a personal thing. I'm more after hard facts. For example, the eyecups on my Nikon 8x32 HG's wobble and the rubber on the eyecups have started to degrade after just 5 years. Optically superb, but this small fact has put me off. Its stuff like this I want to know, so that in 5 years time I'm not cursing wasting £1200+ of hard earned cash.
Thanks for the run down on the ones you've owned Ian and John. I know what you mean about the old style Leica's though John. Absolutely bomb proof but unfortunately they weigh the same as a small car, which is why I need some new ones!
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 08:56:28 PM
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 08:57:17 PM
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 08:58:36 PM
Mark Rigby said
Tue Oct 19 4:31 PM, 2010
Rob,
Dont take the mickey out of the cheap binoculars, they can come in very useful.
I once had a pair and after smashing out the lenses and sticking them eyepiece down into a bed of plastercine, they made a very useful pen and pencil holder.
Rob Thorpe said
Tue Oct 19 11:59 AM, 2010
Some guy down at the Wigan Flashes a few weeks ago was telling me he'd ordered a pair of binoculars on the internet (or "tinternet" as he called it) for the bargain price of £15.00! He informed me that as they are larger than my Nikons he should be able to see further. I can't remember the name of the website, but if I see him again I'll ask...
-- Edited by Rob Thorpe on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 12:01:45 PM
Ian McKerchar said
Tue Oct 19 11:27 AM, 2010
See, I knew someone would say it
There are NO bins in the £3-500 price range which compare to the £1500 and upwards models for me. When the weathers nice and sunny the view through all bins look good though you'd still pick out many fringing, glare, edge of field focus etc problems with the cheaper ones. When the weather's anything less though those cheaper bins really suffer when the top line ones continue to excel.
For me, I use them every day and I owe it to my eyes and my passion for what I do to give myself the best. That said, I'm struggling to justify some new EL's just yet!
It is interesting how opinions vary though and how each eye percieves a slightly different image. Bit like birding in general really
JOHN TYMON said
Tue Oct 19 10:12 AM, 2010
Mark Rigby wrote:
JOHN TYMON wrote:
swars-the new el to me were so bright you could not concentrate on any bird,it was like watching a 3d film
Isn't that the idea John,surely the brighter the image,the better and in 3D as well! You mustn't have read the previous post right down to the end. "looks like you need to get out more" As for the difference in price, you get what you pay for. My grandma used to tell me-"buy cheap,buy twice!
no unaturally bright-colours didn't seem reet to me,each to his own,everybodys eyes are different,and price is a strange thing it seems the more expensive,and more modern to me the less the quality of the build.The old Leicas you could have thrown off snowdon and theyd be waiting at the bottom ,without a mark,the new very expensive bins,are much lighter and made from lighter more fragile materials,if i dropped my zeiss off the couch they would probably have a broken eye cup etc. And there are bins in the £300-£500 catagory that when you look through them there is hardly any difference to the big 3.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 10:15:07 AM
Mark Rigby said
Tue Oct 19 9:07 AM, 2010
JOHN TYMON wrote:
swars-the new el to me were so bright you could not concentrate on any bird,it was like watching a 3d film
Isn't that the idea John,surely the brighter the image,the better and in 3D as well! You mustn't have read the previous post right down to the end. "looks like you need to get out more" As for the difference in price, you get what you pay for. My grandma used to tell me-"buy cheap,buy twice!
JOHN TYMON said
Tue Oct 19 7:48 AM, 2010
my oppinion I have the zeiss 10x40 -very good and at the time i could have baught any,but theres not £ 500 between them and the other 2 contenders-light sharp,bright,and the most natural looking when you look through em swars-the new el to me were so bright you could not concentrate on any bird,it was like watching a 3d film,everything seemed unatural,that was in bright sunshine though. Leica-probably just edge the zeiss for me,the new hd are beltin,but on the downside now don't feel they would take the knocks like they used to,seem a bit plasticy too me. Nikon-seem overpriced when you hold them-optically,i don't think quite as good as the other 3
by the way my eyes are knackered,so go to in focus and don't let them talk you into some of the sh*te they sell. cheers john p.s the eyecup went wonky in 2 weeks on the zeiss,and i had to take em back to in focus,but they wouldn't change em,and would only change the eye cups from a new one,if i hadn't have been ill when i went with the issue,and couldn't be bothered,i wouldn't have left without a refund,but i got a good swap deal and they had sold my old leicas,so i couldn't go back.
Ian McKerchar said
Mon Oct 18 11:03 PM, 2010
Best thing to do Craig is get down to your local optics dealer and try them ou...
Ah right, you've heard that before have you!
My own very personal opinion is thus:
Swarovski EL's- magnificent image, love the design, mine have been very robust, evident from their now terribly battered appearance. Downsides? Focussing too 'long' from close to infinity and very prone to becoming loose or stiff. Mine is the latter. That said their aftermarket service is absolutely second to none. Send them away for repair and they come back like new complete with brand new rubber armour. I can't be without mine for more than a day so they will habe to carry on looking knackered!
Leica- briefly owned a pair (won them!). Bloody loved them. Light, compact and superb optically. Couldn't seperate them optically with my Swarovskis but ergonomically the Leica just had the edge? Downsides? Leica's well earned poor aftermarket service and a few production problems. Other than that, I'm struggling.
Zeiss- sorry, having looked thorugh a few pairs now I just don't rate the image, not in the same league as Swaro or Leica for me. Ergonomically I found them poorly proportioned and they don't look as 'pretty' as the latter two either. Not that it matters, right? On the plus side they're cheaper than the rest!
Nikon- optically I have always rated Nikon. For me, they repeatedly produce the best optics full stop. The old Nikons were optically the best of the lot for me and I field tested them back to back with the best of the rest but they were stupidly heavy and it was like training your biceps in the gym every five minutes. That said I bet you could run your car over them and they'd be right as rain. Also, poncy birders out there might turn their noses up at the lack of slight German or Austrian twang to their producers!
So, there you have it. Or do you? Leica now have a HD model which weren't out when I had mine. If the older ones were good (which they ruddy were) then how good are these HD versions? Also, Swarovski have (very) recently brought out their new EL's. In these all my gripes appear to have been addressed. They are slightly smaller and lighter, have better coatings and the focussing has been completely improved. I haven't had the pleasure of looking through a pair yet (and I dread that day for the obvious reasons) but a mate who has said they made looking through his 'old' and still brilliant EL's like looking through some milk bottles. They were apparently unbelievably good. Needless to say that this is my starting point for my next pair.
Oh and for those who believe you can get a pair just as good as the 'top end' bins but much cheaper or that the image from binoculars can be 'too bright'. You need to get out more!
Craig Higson said
Mon Oct 18 10:04 PM, 2010
Right Ladies and Gents. I am now seriously considering biting the bullet and buying some new bins after xmas. I'm well aware of all the usual advice about trying them out for yourself etc etc, but what I'm really after is the dirty little details that you only find out about when you've handed over your readies - the sticky focus, the eyecups that wobble etc etc. What you love or what you now hate - in other words what you wish you knew before you bought them.
I'm only really interested in Leica, Zeiss, Swarovski and Nikon (but only the new EDG's if anyone is lucky enough to own a pair - I have some High Grades and know about their pro's and cons ta).
So what do you love about your EL's or hate about your Ultravids that you think I should know? At £1200+ a pair its big money and I'll take all the advice I can get thanks very much.
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Monday 18th of October 2010 10:04:50 PM
I don't really think there is anything between the lot. I would have bought the Swaro 8x32 if RSPB Comwy would have given me a discount, as looking outside the shop I thought they were great.
I ended up going to Rochdale 3 days on the run and spending ages with the Swaros and Zeiss . I nearly tossed a coin in the air at the end, but the Zeiss suit my hands better, and I was a little iffy on the 3Dish effect of the Swaros.
The Leica were great also, but had 1mm less eye relief, as I wear specs, I did not want to take the risk for that money that weeks down the road, that it was causing problems. I am glad I chose 8x32(my Opticron are 8x42) as they are have proved to be just the right weight and feel for me.
Our lead birder loves 10x42(B & L), but I cannot really hold 10x steady.
You seen a wise old(young)bird, Craig, so I guess you will not be rushed or pressured. Just get what in the end feels right for you.
Perhaps you should wait until you have tried the EDG's Perhaps a visit to martin mere is called for as they have some, plus all the others?
http://www.at-infocus.co.uk/nikon.html
Enjoy the tension
Cheers
Geoff
The zeiss 10 x 42 FL ,even though they may not have the kudos os swars.or Leica ,are the lightest most comfy bins to hold of any I have had,and optically not much different to leica hd which i compared last week with another birder,and he agreed there was no difference.
I has you know had the Leica 8x40BN and for me apart from wieght nowt were near them back 10 years,but a good trade in at in focus £400,and the zeiss on offer at £1200,meant I got a new pair of superb bins for £800. A no brainer
Honestly - dunno.
I've used Leica stuff for years now and really like it so am obviously drawn to their Bins. Plus when I looked through them they were brilliant. But, I also like Nikon and wouldnt mind trying these EDG bins. Problem is with these and the Swaros is that They really are very very expensive (ok so they all are but these are even £200 more than the Leicas in some shops). Also when I've looked through Swaro's in the past I've found their eyecups a bit 'odd' feeling. Zeiss - not really had a good look through any yet. Must admit the 'aesthetics' dont inspire much but if they feel and perform OK I'll have to see.
The things people have written above have helped a bit, but I suspect I'll be in the shop before I know.
Cheers for that Geoff, but I'm afraid that I'm in full agreement with Ian on this one. The 'mid range' bins just dont compare to the top end ones.
I know some people think its snobbery, but once youve owned a pair of Zeiss, Leica, Nikon or Swaro's I think the difference between these and the mid ranges is very noticeable. The only exception would be the 8x32 Porro Prisms than Nikon used (maybe still do) to make - I think they were SE's or something. I looked through these once and they were excellent and 'only' around the £400 mark.
I once owned a pair of Opticron bins and for what I paid they were great, and If I ever needed a backup pair I'd certainly consider them. But, having compared the more recent Leicas and Swaro's with my old BA's there was a huge difference between them. Combined with the weight factor it was enough to persuade me to start saving pennies.
I bought a pair of Zeiss 8x32 last year, and they are fantastic. I differed between these and the Swaros for days.
About cheaper ones, whilst we would all agree with Ian, I have to say, that my Opticron Imagic 8x40 are very fine bins. They were great at low light at Seahouses Harbour last year. One of "we three" has a pair as well as the latest Swaros, and agrees with me - also John the Chadkirk Warden had a pair before his Leicas, and also agrees(sorry to quote you in absentia John
Yeah Cheers Rob - wouldnt mind trying some of them 10-80x56 bins - the most powerful in the world I believe!
I must say I agree with John about some bins being almost too bright. The image becomes almost un-natural.
But, thats a personal thing. I'm more after hard facts. For example, the eyecups on my Nikon 8x32 HG's wobble and the rubber on the eyecups have started to degrade after just 5 years. Optically superb, but this small fact has put me off. Its stuff like this I want to know, so that in 5 years time I'm not cursing wasting £1200+ of hard earned cash.
Thanks for the run down on the ones you've owned Ian and John. I know what you mean about the old style Leica's though John. Absolutely bomb proof but unfortunately they weigh the same as a small car, which is why I need some new ones!
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 08:56:28 PM
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 08:57:17 PM
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 08:58:36 PM
Dont take the mickey out of the cheap binoculars, they can come in very useful.
I once had a pair and after smashing out the lenses and sticking them eyepiece down into a bed of plastercine, they made a very useful pen and pencil holder.
-- Edited by Rob Thorpe on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 12:01:45 PM
There are NO bins in the £3-500 price range which compare to the £1500 and upwards models for me. When the weathers nice and sunny the view through all bins look good though you'd still pick out many fringing, glare, edge of field focus etc problems with the cheaper ones. When the weather's anything less though those cheaper bins really suffer when the top line ones continue to excel.
For me, I use them every day and I owe it to my eyes and my passion for what I do to give myself the best. That said, I'm struggling to justify some new EL's just yet!
It is interesting how opinions vary though and how each eye percieves a slightly different image. Bit like birding in general really
no unaturally bright-colours didn't seem reet to me,each to his own,everybodys eyes are different,and price is a strange thing it seems the more expensive,and more modern to me the less the quality of the build.The old Leicas you could have thrown off snowdon and theyd be waiting at the bottom ,without a mark,the new very expensive bins,are much lighter and made from lighter more fragile materials,if i dropped my zeiss off the couch they would probably have a broken eye cup etc.
And there are bins in the £300-£500 catagory that when you look through them there is hardly any difference to the big 3.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 10:15:07 AM
Isn't that the idea John,surely the brighter the image,the better and in 3D as well!
You mustn't have read the previous post right down to the end. "looks like you need to get out more"
As for the difference in price, you get what you pay for. My grandma used to tell me-"buy cheap,buy twice!
I have the zeiss 10x40 -very good and at the time i could have baught any,but theres not £ 500 between them and the other 2 contenders-light sharp,bright,and the most natural looking when you look through em
swars-the new el to me were so bright you could not concentrate on any bird,it was like watching a 3d film,everything seemed unatural,that was in bright sunshine though.
Leica-probably just edge the zeiss for me,the new hd are beltin,but on the downside now don't feel they would take the knocks like they used to,seem a bit plasticy too me.
Nikon-seem overpriced when you hold them-optically,i don't think quite as good as the other 3
by the way my eyes are knackered,so go to in focus and don't let them talk you into some of the sh*te they sell.
cheers john
p.s the eyecup went wonky in 2 weeks on the zeiss,and i had to take em back to in focus,but they wouldn't change em,and would only change the eye cups from a new one,if i hadn't have been ill when i went with the issue,and couldn't be bothered,i wouldn't have left without a refund,but i got a good swap deal and they had sold my old leicas,so i couldn't go back.
Ah right, you've heard that before have you!
My own very personal opinion is thus:
Swarovski EL's- magnificent image, love the design, mine have been very robust, evident from their now terribly battered appearance. Downsides? Focussing too 'long' from close to infinity and very prone to becoming loose or stiff. Mine is the latter. That said their aftermarket service is absolutely second to none. Send them away for repair and they come back like new complete with brand new rubber armour. I can't be without mine for more than a day so they will habe to carry on looking knackered!
Leica- briefly owned a pair (won them!). Bloody loved them. Light, compact and superb optically. Couldn't seperate them optically with my Swarovskis but ergonomically the Leica just had the edge? Downsides? Leica's well earned poor aftermarket service and a few production problems. Other than that, I'm struggling.
Zeiss- sorry, having looked thorugh a few pairs now I just don't rate the image, not in the same league as Swaro or Leica for me. Ergonomically I found them poorly proportioned and they don't look as 'pretty' as the latter two either. Not that it matters, right? On the plus side they're cheaper than the rest!
Nikon- optically I have always rated Nikon. For me, they repeatedly produce the best optics full stop. The old Nikons were optically the best of the lot for me and I field tested them back to back with the best of the rest but they were stupidly heavy and it was like training your biceps in the gym every five minutes. That said I bet you could run your car over them and they'd be right as rain. Also, poncy birders out there might turn their noses up at the lack of slight German or Austrian twang to their producers!
So, there you have it. Or do you? Leica now have a HD model which weren't out when I had mine. If the older ones were good (which they ruddy were) then how good are these HD versions? Also, Swarovski have (very) recently brought out their new EL's. In these all my gripes appear to have been addressed. They are slightly smaller and lighter, have better coatings and the focussing has been completely improved. I haven't had the pleasure of looking through a pair yet (and I dread that day for the obvious reasons) but a mate who has said they made looking through his 'old' and still brilliant EL's like looking through some milk bottles. They were apparently unbelievably good. Needless to say that this is my starting point for my next pair.
Oh and for those who believe you can get a pair just as good as the 'top end' bins but much cheaper or that the image from binoculars can be 'too bright'. You need to get out more!
I'm only really interested in Leica, Zeiss, Swarovski and Nikon (but only the new EDG's if anyone is lucky enough to own a pair - I have some High Grades and know about their pro's and cons ta).
So what do you love about your EL's or hate about your Ultravids that you think I should know? At £1200+ a pair its big money and I'll take all the advice I can get thanks very much.
-- Edited by Craig Higson on Monday 18th of October 2010 10:04:50 PM