In terms of your list,Sid, the hawks are 1 family, the falcons are a different family, and they're all part of a bigger clan. So related, but not the same

Mike

Thanks for the detailled reply and I'm glad that I asked - still confused but glad I asked

Mike Chorley wrote:

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Don't you wish you hadn't asked

It's all down to different uses of the same terms, Sid.

All diurnal birds of prey are classified scientifically as Accipiteriformes, from the Latin accipiter (hawk), presumably from the verb accipio (to take) because they 'take' prey. Then there are sub-divisions including New World Vultures, Osprey, Secretary Bird, Falcons (Falconidae)and then the rest - Eagles, Buzzards, Hawks, Kites, Harriers & Old World Vultures -are grouped together as Accipitridae. So in the classification usage of the word, all falcons are hawks, but the sub group which are actually called hawks ( Accipiter,about 40 species) are distinct from falcons, so in that sense, no falcons are hawks and vice versa.

Just to confuse you even further in American parlance New World Vultures are called buzzards and what we call buzzards (buteo species) are called hawks, so there are hawks -Red-tailed Hawk, Swainson's Hawk- which are and aren't hawks, depending on your point of view! Don't you wish you hadn't asked

As a very rough rule of thumb, pointed wings = Falcons, broad wings = Hawks.

The confusion is caused by common useage and mixing of terms. On a trip to Norfolk one of the locals in the White Horse at East Barsham told us about his 'little 'awk'. Once we'd eliminated the Alcid from the discussion we found out he meant an injured Kestrel that he had in his care

Thanks Steve and Mike - from what I understand you have said Mike -

"All Falcons are pointed winged (falcated) Hawks" - so not all Hawks are Falcons.

However Chambers dictionary defines a Hawk as any bird of the Falcon family

What about a list :

Hawks - Sparrow Hawk, Goshawk

Falcons - Kestrel, Hobby, Merlin, Peregrine

From the above two definitions they could all be both Hawks and Falcons - this definitely not easy Steve.

Any other thoughts please?



-- Edited by sid ashton on Monday 18th of May 2009 10:50:43 PM

or if you use falconers' jargon, only a female falcon is a falcon!

It's never easy is it?

Steve

Hi Sid. In general terms all falcons are 'hawks' as they're Accipitriformes, but they aren't hawks (Accipitridae) which are broad-winged, because falcons have pointed wings. There are probably a lot more differences as well, but that's the general classification. The name does seem to derive from falcated, presumably from the shape of the wing in flight: probably from the same source as that for the short curved sword (falchion)

falx (Lat) a sickle

-- Edited by Mike Chorley on Monday 18th of May 2009 12:46:36 AM

I don't like to appear daft but let's give it a bash anyway It was a bit too wet to go birding today so I was happy to stay at home but then I starts a' thinking - and the question I have is "are all Falcons Hawks or are all Hawks Falcons" - come on hands up who knows the answer???? I probably should know - something to do with falcated wings is it??