No offence was taken by me Simon, I'm just a lazy sod
Cheers Ian

Unless you know the people well enough to know they wont take offence e.g warfy jnr - (oops i've done it again!) Naming and shaming is not the way!!

I do believe tho, that this thread has served its purpose and highlighted the Atlas and the difference of surveys and the roving records and what people can do to help. Judith has mentioned perfectly why records are needed!!

At the end of the day no one can be forced to take part, you will get those who cant be bothered but also those who can.

We have to accept thats its not everyones cup of tea BUT if this thread has spurned people into adding roving records or even better a timed tetrad then job done!

P.s Sean if you know of any jobs in birding without a degree defo let me know!!

Re the 2007 - 2011 BTO Bird Atlas project in general and not specifically aimed at Elton birders - whom I am absolutely sure will now come up with the goods, plus plenty more!

Right then, so we're all agreed that naming and shaming and forcing birders to do something against their wishes isn't the answer. Seems fair enough.

If not naming and shaming? - what then? - is it time to dust down and bring back into service the ducking-stool? or is this just the perfect opportunity to bring the local village stocks back into usage? "Joe Bloggs - I hereby sentence you to 24 hours in the stocks on the village green, in which you will be pelted with addled, rancid Canada Goose eggs, for the wicked crime of forgetting to input your sightings towards the BTO Atlas project!"

Seriously though - what would happen if all birders decided this type of "work" wasn't their bag? It's such a shame it is called survey work - in fact, surveying birds is nothing at all like work - it's fun, rewarding and you can learn one hell of a lot about birds! Anyway, what would happen if everyone decided to take something/everything out of a hobby and put nothing back in return? We all know the answer - we probably wouldn't have a hobby to pursue. This excellent forum is effectively a birding community. Shouldn't community involve all members contributing in some shape or form towards the "cause", to help the community survive and prosper? Certainly some members of the community will want to and/or be capable of doing more than others but I re-iterate my earlier comments - is that really too much to ask for all to help, even if just on a small scale?

Is it part of the problem that those who don't do any of this type of birding seem to have slightly wonky, pre-conceived ideas about what actually is involved! The opportunity is there on the current BTO atlas project for novices/those still relatively inexperienced/non believers - "survey virgins" - if you like! to input their everyday roving records towards the atlas project - it is a great, easy and non-committal way for those nervous or reluctant to get involved, to dip their toes into the water and to see that actually it isn't anything like as cold and uninviting as it looks! It is enjoyable and rewarding - in fact you might even find it so much to your liking that you want to rip off all your clothes and totally immerse yourself in it!!

If anyone wants any help in getting started with adding roving records towards the Atlas project - then I am quite willing to come out to see them and try to help - local birders only! - sorry, those reading this in John O'Groats or Lands End are not eligible for this "special offer"! The only downside to this absolute bargain of an offer? - having to spend a couple of hours in my company! I will promise that I'll keep my clothes on - well at least my cap and walking boots anyway!!

Anyone interested - please send me a private message.

Keep atlasing!

Bill.

sean wrote
For those younger birders out there or those thinking of a career change I can only promote to you that getting involved early on in your life can open windows, give you new skills and experience and help you in to working environments that most birders can only dream of, yes that is right, getting paid to bird watch!?!?
i wrote
not being pessamistic but i started doing surveys when i was 12,did 20 years solid surveys,and wildfowl counts,etc as well as 2 years daily volunteering at penny flash,diggin a lot of the scrapes that everyone watches,but never did me any good,thats why at 46 im stuck in a factory 40 hours a week.i never saw many jobs for paid birdwatching for anyone who didn't have a degree in something.so i daupt just doing surveys would lead to that type of jobfor some maybebut few and far between



-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 29th of April 2009 01:47:00 PM

Dear All,
I've been watching this thread with interest since it began and would not like to take sides so to speak. I would only like to promote how enjoyable I personnally find survey work. It is a great way to test you ID and recording skills and always turns up a few surprises as well as contributing to a better understanding of our birds. I do several BBS in Manchester and Merseyside, a WBBS in Rochdale, several WeBS and an Atlas tetrad, so know all about the long time of write ups and fitting it all in, I apologise to those who I always send them in to late!!

My only point really is that by getting involved in these surveys as an amateur I have been able to now get involved in bird projects through my job as an environmental consultant. Having 6 years of BTO surveys behind me I have now added WeBS surveys on the Wyre Estuary through the winter 2008-09 for a proposed development there, which allowed me an opportunity to observe and enjoy a new area. I am now involved in CBC, Point Counts, Vantage Point Surveys, Nightjar and Blackcock Surveys, Goshawk and raptor assessments and Curlew breeding surveys for a proposed wind farm in mid-Wales.

All I'm trying to say is that those who might not have tried surveys before should give it a go and those that are not interested then that is your choice. For those younger birders out there or those thinking of a career change I can only promote to you that getting involved early on in your life can open windows, give you new skills and experience and help you in to working environments that most birders can only dream of, yes that is right, getting paid to bird watch!?!?



-- Edited by Sean Sweeney on Wednesday 29th of April 2009 07:21:46 AM

Simon Johnson's comments haven't been taken out of context, he and I had spoken about this issue (talking, anyone remember that? From a time before forums, emails and texts). You are right Mark, Simon and I covered exactly that point about posting on this forum and submitting your atlas records but in a nutshell, and I'm not implying this has occurred by any stretch of the imagination on this thread or otherwise, is that this website and forum was made for everyone and anyone at a time long before the atlas. Whilst it can be an excellent vehicle to promote it in everyway I don't want it to be used to harangue ( great word) those who don't get involved, if you know what mean.

By all means do that in private though



-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Thursday 23rd of April 2009 04:30:08 PM

I might as well have my twopenneth as well.
Here's a little story which happened in the last couple of days. A GM birder (who is not on this forum) who is a twitcher, and whom I know from Scilly, rang me up in a state last night. He has a local patch at a moorland plantation in the county, which is a SBI Grade A. Long-eared Owls breed there, and he knew they were on eggs or had young as he has been watching them for years there (and no, I don't intend to say where!) Last Friday, along came the local council and started thinning the trees as he watched. The owls panicked and were flying around in the daytime, going mad. What could I do?
Now, this birder had never sent any records of these owls in, so we didn't know about them. There had been some consultation with the relevant ranger service but they didn't know about them either. If we'd have known, we could have advised the council not to do this work, as Longies always breed early.
Fortunately we've been able to stop the work using the W&C Act 1981. Hopefully the nest has survived...
The moral of this story is...we can't save what we don't know about.

I think Mr.Johnson's comments have been taken a little out of context.

If you can be arsed to type out your sightings on this Forum, then surely you can put your local patch sightings on the Bird Survey as a roving report.

Like Bill says "every little helps".

If people didn't take the time to record their sighting-this part of the WEBSITE would be pants!!!(For the record Ian, Its Brilliant!)

My post wasn't intended to make it appear that I do surveywork under sufference Steve but if I'm honest (and I usually am brutely so) it's not my scene. Sure I do my bit and after being involved in serious birding for nearly 29 years I'm fully aware of the reasons why it should be done.

My point though is this. There are birders who do not want to and will not take part, I know some of them personally. It is not that they don't appreciate any aspect of it, they just don't want to. They go birdwatching for their own personal reasons and I'm afraid I'd don't agree that they should have to give something back. Birdwatching appeals to people on different levels. Bill admittedly doesn't care for remiges and rectrices, imarginations and inner webs but I love them. I don't care much for twitching anymore but others do. Some openly adore survey work and others shy away. All I think is wrong is when those who choose not to atlas might be made to feel guilty or alienated ( and I'm not saying they do or will), I for one respect their decision, like I respect the decision of those who won't fill out rarity forms when they find a cracker. I might not understand it but I respect it.

I don't dissagree with anything that's been said on this thread necessarily, i openly promote the atlas and other survey work and will assist in promoting and encouraging it's development but it must be their decision. I'd just rather people weren't made to feel that they must, to feel guilty. Others will no doubt dissagree but that's what makes this all great

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Thursday 23rd of April 2009 12:28:46 PM

-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Thursday 23rd of April 2009 12:32:50 PM

Well put Bill - as usual

If I could add another point to your excellent summary, it's that Atlas work can make you go look at areas you wouldn't normally visit and find things you never knew were there.

Yesterday I did both a Breeding Bird Survey and an Atlas TTV in Mossley. It was very hot, I'm suffering from a lousy cold, and it was quite a slog trekking up hill and down dale. However I was cheered by the highest counts of Willow Warbler ever, Wheatears where I'd never seen them before, and I did find evidence of probable nesting by Siskins.

As I soaked my aching limbs in a nice, hot bath I did feel that I had actually achieved something.

Declan Savage (winner of last year's birding May-hem) has set himself a new challenge this year and has taken on Atlas TTVs in some of the least attractive birding areas of Manchester that he can find. You can be sure he'll come up with a few surprises.

Cheers, Steve

I wouldn't wish to make any comment on any of our local birders but would like to make a few comments regarding the atlas project in general. We all want to watch birds - sure the reasons for people wishing to bird watch are varied but let us not forget - what happens if we haven't got the variety and numbers of birds to watch because we say we can't find the time or the inclination to document their distribution and numbers. Granted plenty of birders pursue their hobby purely for pleasure but is it "right" that anyone takes something/everything out of a hobby without even putting a little back in? In our area we bird watch in a mainly urban/suburban area, where all decent bird habitats may at some stage come under threat. Those threats can be better responded to, if we have a good and accurate database of what treasures we have. It is most unlikely that our area will ever be a major bird watching mecca - but let's try and protect what little we have! Many of us like to bird locally - do we want it to come to the stage where we continually have to go out of area to watch birds?

Let's put things in perspective - an atlas project comes along approx. every 20 or so years - nobody is asking anyone to sit at a computer all day long, for the rest of their lives inputting bird records!! Is it really too much to ask for anyone to put a few records into a database? Let us say that all capable birders were asked to input say 10 or 20 records per week into the database - this would take maybe 10 minutes max. of someone's time. What - we all can't spare 10 minutes a week? Sure some people will have much more time than others but even those of us with the least time can surely contribute a few records to the project? The majority of Manchester birders will already keep comprehensive records of what they have seen. I would guess that those reluctant to input records into the database will probably think of it as time-consuming and difficult to do so - it really isn't!! 10 records a week or 10 records a fortnight or 10 records a month - whatever we can do - each and every record, no matter how small, will help! I think we will also be very surprised how much enjoyment and pleasure taking part in such a project will add to our every day bird watching. It might make us all look a little more closely at some of the everyday activities of birds that we tend to overlook and improve all of our all-round birding skills.

To paraphrase a famous old saying - "Ask not what your birds can do for you - ask what you can do for your birds!"


Keep atlasing,


Bill.

Named and shamed indeed. I could make excuses about lack of time etc etc but whats the point. Some of you know ive been in hospital for the last week or so and this is my first look at the forum in 12 days! Now I have some time on my hands as i will be laid up a while will submit mine from last year at Elton,

Ian, I fully accept that not everyone is into doing surveys. However, maybe there is a misunderstanding amongst some of the county's birders about what is actually involved in taking part in the Atlas, which may explain why a good number of them have so far not contributed any records. There are two ways to contribute. Those who enjoy doing surveys, or who like Ian (if Ive interpreted his post correctly) are prepared to do them under suffrance , can take on a tetrad and do Timed Tetrad Visits(TTV). People who don't like doing surveys can simply submit a few casual records, known as Roving Records, based on what they see when they are out birdwatching, or even when they are driving around in the car, or what's nesting in their back garden. This does not require any extra effort beyond spending maybe 15 minutes every week entering a few records onto the BTO website. Surely this is not too much to ask for such an important project.
As Simon has flagged up a lack of records from Elton Reservoir, I will use this as an example. It is not intended as a dig at Elton birders, as my comments apply equally to many other parts of GM. Despite being one of the most well watched sites in the county, based on records submitted to the BTO for the 2008 breeding season only 7 species were confirmed as breeding. This is clearly not a true reflection of what actually bred at Elton. In the Breeding Birds of Greater Manchester which covered the period from 1979 to 1983, 43 species were confirmed as breeding. Most of these species will undoubtedly still be breeding in the area with a few new ones. Modern technology has given us an incredible advantage compared to that time. It has never been easier to submit records via the BTO website. Thanks to Ian you can go onto the Atlas page on this website and download a 10km square summary for the area where you are birdwatching. These will tell you which records we need from which tetrads. So please, if you would like to see a new GM Atlas published in 3 to 4 years time, and have not contributed so far, just spend a few minutes every week between now and the end of July submitting a few records to the BTO Atlas website
http://www.bto.org/birdatlas/index.htm If every one who posts on this forum were to do so, it would make a massive difference to the success of the GM Atlas project.

-- Edited by Steve Atkins on Wednesday 22nd of April 2009 07:19:37 PM

-- Edited by Steve Atkins on Wednesday 22nd of April 2009 08:17:09 PM

It was the mentioning of "bullets and the like" that's put me off going for a fair while. I'd need to invest in some body armour before even thinking about it!

You make me laugh Paul - Lack of Birds!!! Bittern, Med Gull, Waders, Ducks, Warblers you guys down there dont know you have been born - Try Ashworth Moor Res - if theres a Mallard on then its a good day! (You know I'm messing with you Paul)

Dave (Who will try harder with the atlasing!)

p.s Simon if you want to help with the Mole Survey on the wildlife forum then that would be great

p.p.s Perhaps there should be a thread on the places around Greater Manchester where the birds are few and far between! (Eltons not one!)

I've already privately emailed Simon, but would just like to say publicly that no offence was taken - not by me anyway. I think the "Elton Crew" can take it! We're hard round here - we have to be - Elton's a difficult place to bird! Lack of birds most of the time, bullets and the like - you've got to be hard!

Well and truley TOLD OFF!! LOL!!

The post was meant to be tongue in cheek, with the intention of the people mentioned not to take any offence by it due to the banter thats normally between them!

apologies if any offence was caused, but if someone does start adding roving records mission accomplished!!


-- Edited by Simon Johnson on Wednesday 22nd of April 2009 04:32:45 PM

Ian McKerchar wrote:

---

Something along this line was coming sooner or later and now it's here, time for my reply.

I fully understand the importance of not only the Atlas but of all the BTO's surveys etc and support them where and when I can. We have to be very careful though, as everyone goes birding for their own reasons, some aren't into survey work (and that is no reference to the Elton boys) and like others who 'don't do rarity forms' I have to respect that. Publically 'shaming' people isn't the way forward, survey work takes time and effort some may not have to give, time that they would rather just relax and go birding (and no I don't find my Pennington Flash TTVs relaxing ). We can't make birders join in, otherwise their efforts will be half hearted and potentially inaccurate, they must want to join in.

Let's respect those that choose not to get involved, they have their reasons not to like we have ours to get involved.

---

And some people spend thier time trying to get photographic records of the birds at a site,like i do at penny,and after 5 hours birding,3 hours sorting the good photo's,noting the records of the day,it just gets too much to do surveys,and believe me i did em for 20+ years.Everyone to thier ownringers/birders/photographers/surveyers/and just someone who wants a bit of relaxing time after a hard weeks graft.in the end its just a hobby and everyone enjoys it in thier own way,but we all unite under one banner on the manchester website

-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Wednesday 22nd of April 2009 05:59:29 PM

Something along this line was coming sooner or later and now it's here, time for my reply.

I fully understand the importance of not only the Atlas but of all the BTO's surveys etc and support them where and when I can. We have to be very careful though, as everyone goes birding for their own reasons, some aren't into survey work (and that is no reference to the Elton boys) and like others who 'don't do rarity forms' I have to respect that. Publically 'shaming' people isn't the way forward, survey work takes time and effort some may not have to give, time that they would rather just relax and go birding (and no I don't find my Pennington Flash TTVs relaxing ). We can't make birders join in, otherwise their efforts will be half hearted and potentially inaccurate, they must want to join in.

Let's respect those that choose not to get involved, they have their reasons not to like we have ours to get involved.

Simon, I enter ALL my Elton records directly onto the BTO website, and ALL my records from other sites too. As I am registered for the Bird Atlas, I assume this is sufficient. I have been registered with BTO since I started birding in 2005.

Time for a rant....... its come to light that its only myself and one other person (Declan Savage) entering records from Elton for the current Atlas. Im really shocked at this with the amount of people who watch there and the publicity the Atlas has had. It doesnt take long to add your sightings as roving records on line.... you post them on here so why not on the Atlas web site as well. Everyone goes on about how Elton "Rocks" think its time the likes of Paul Wilson, Mr Campbell and Warfy jnr got your fingers out and put Elton well and truley on the map!!