So its begun, and after reading Ian's great article i think i now know what i am doing
Had a bit of a bird race in Rochdale with Paul today - i didnt take note on who found what etc but i do remember finding the following;
Wigeon (Scarce in Rochdale) - 2 Ogden Res Stock Dove - 1 at Birtle - not really known here Peregrine - Ogden Res Great Crested Grebe - 1 at AMR - first in a while up there
Will have to go out and improve my total so far when i am back in the county in a few days
Dave
sid ashton said
Wed Dec 31 8:51 PM, 2008
John unfortuately not - no matter how many times I added up I couldn't get to that 200 mark
Hi Sid,
Just noticed that you had a spin round the Wirral today. Did you get the extra 2 for 200? Not that either of us is counting
Cheers, John
-- Edited by John Rayner at 17:18, 2008-12-31
Steve Collins said
Wed Dec 31 8:40 PM, 2008
With his challenge ahead, I took David out on a training day today just to give him the benefit of my field craft and that extra edge for the year My year list was on 192 so I thought Martin Mere should be OK for him to handle, and Dave Thacker and Les Steele have had some good birds there this week, and get me some more ticks I thought I'd show him how it's done with the first one so using my field craft nailed the hardest one for him first- Whooper Swan Now go and get me Bewick Swan, Barn Owl, White-fronted Goose and Green-winged Teal (still counts as a tick for now) as they are around somewhere. Just to make it difficult I threw in a blanket of fog so you couldn't actually see the field where the White-Front was in So What did he do? Spent most of the day doing Arty photos of my Whooper Swans and hanging out of the window trying to photograph stoats! He just won't take points and prizes seriously and keeps trying to enjoy himself To be honest I needed him to teach me how to photograph birds in flight as I missed a great opportunity with Bittern yesterday and he's sorted it I think That just sums up what me, him and most people in these comps are in it for and it is enjoyment at whatever level. Some of us though just need that bit of extra to make it interesting- a bit like playing sports in a league rather than friendlies-we can't all win it but it's good to take part. We did something similar in Rochdale before the forum started and it made you get out and look for the likes of Gadwall and Shoveler in Rochdale ( still havn't found Shoveler!)- It gave more coverage of the borough and I made more friendships and improved my birding skills. Not only has Ian created a fantastic site, but reading betwen the lines, has achieved those 3 objectives with his site and competitions- something which all birders in the county benefit from whether competing or not David will give it his best shot, despite my coaching but he will still be looking at, and photographing, the fungi and the flowers and all wildlife because he enjoys all of it but likes the buzz of and the banter of competition too, and so do I! I hope people don't drop on reporting, as personally with little time to go out a lot, I learn by following them up and am very grateful for them As Woosey says, just do whatever you like Happy New Year to everyone Steve
Steve Collins said
Wed Dec 31 8:02 PM, 2008
With his challenge ahead, I took David out on a training day today just to give him the benefit of my field craft and that extra edge for the year My year list was on 192 so I thought Martin Mere should be OK for him to handle, and Dave Thacker and Les Steele have had some good birds there this week, and get me some more ticks I thought I'd show him how it's done with the first one so using my field craft nailed the hardest one for him first- Whooper Swan Now go and get me Bewick Swan, Barn Owl, White-fronted Goose and Green-winged Teal (still counts as a tick for now) as they are around somewhere. Just to make it difficult I threw in a blanket of fog so you couldn't actually see the field where the White-Front was in So What did he do? Spent most of the day doing Arty photos of my Whooper Swans and hanging out of the window trying to photograph stoats! He just won't take points and prizes seriously and keeps trying to enjoy himself To be honest I needed him to teach me how to photograph birds in flight as I missed a great opportunity with Bittern yesterday and he's sorted it I think That just sums up what me, him and most people in these comps are in it for and it is enjoyment at whatever level. Some of us though just need that bit of extra to make it interesting- a bit like playing sports in a league rather than friendlies-we can't all win it but it's good to take part. We did something similar in Rochdale before the forum started and it made you get out and look for the likes of Gadwall and Shoveler in Rochdale ( still havn't found Shoveler!)- It gave more coverage of the borough and I made more friendships and improved my birding skills. Not only has Ian created a fantastic site, but reading betwen the lines, has achieved those 3 objectives with his site and competitions- something which all birders in the county benefit from whether competing or not David will give it his best shot, despite my coaching but he will still be looking at, and photographing, the fungi and the flowers and all wildlife because he enjoys all of it but likes the buzz of and the banter of competition too, and so do I! I hope people don't drop on reporting, as personally with little time to go out a lot, I learn by following them up and am very grateful for them As Woosey says, just do whatever you like Happy New Year to everyone Steve
Paul Cliff said
Wed Dec 31 5:54 PM, 2008
i wonder if people not looking at the forum to get self founds will cause a drop in listed sightings here...?
very difficult to post without looking - especially if you're concerned about repeat postings...
i love birding, getting out and about and the beauty of finding anything... not long enough in the tooth for extreme challenges by a long shot yet!
John Rayner said
Wed Dec 31 5:15 PM, 2008
I think that you all worry too much about ticks and listing - why don't you all go out and just enjoy the birds that you see?
Sid A
P.S.My UK year list is approximately 198 species where can I find those other 2 tomorrow - don't know - don't care!!!
Hi Sid,
Just noticed that you had a spin round the Wirral today. Did you get the extra 2 for 200? Not that either of us is counting
Cheers, John
-- Edited by John Rayner at 17:18, 2008-12-31
Iain Johnson said
Tue Dec 30 11:24 PM, 2008
brian fielding wrote:
are you allowed to use your own local knowledge, for instance everyone knows there are willow tits at pennington, so can you go to pennington, find a willow tit and tick it.
-- Edited by brian fielding at 22:30, 2008-12-30
Brian, my own view on this particular species (and some other species) is that if you found willow tit at pennington without being told where to find them then fine yes you can tick them but if you were told where to go and see them even in subsequent years then no you can't count them as self found.
Maybe I'm being pedantic here but if someone tells you where to go then surely thats not self found is it?
BUT this is my own POV and may not necessary be shared by others including Ian's much anticipated article!!
cheers e
Ian McKerchar said
Tue Dec 30 11:21 PM, 2008
Go onto the website, then 'County Listers and Listing', then 'The Manchester Birding Tournament' and finally 'Click here for the Tournament rules and countable species list'.
sid ashton said
Tue Dec 30 10:44 PM, 2008
Ian
Where are the rules for the Manchester Tournament to be found please?
Sid A
-- Edited by sid ashton at 16:09, 2008-12-31
Ian McKerchar said
Tue Dec 30 10:36 PM, 2008
All I'll say is this, for my self-found county year list where 'commoner birds' are concerned all will be explained in the forthcoming article but one thing they encourage is that you get out early in the year and/or do atleast some local patching, after all it's all about encouraging more county birding for me. Either way, self-found lists on the website follow guidelines acceptable for the Manchester Tournament
brian fielding said
Tue Dec 30 10:26 PM, 2008
are you allowed to use your own local knowledge, for instance everyone knows there are willow tits at pennington, so can you go to pennington, find a willow tit and tick it.
-- Edited by brian fielding at 22:30, 2008-12-30
sid ashton said
Tue Dec 30 10:10 PM, 2008
I seem to have causd a bit of a stir then - well that's all part of the fun of this forum. Good luck and a happy New Year's birding to one and all and wish me luck in finding my 200th species tomorrow!!! Just decided that I'd best get to bed and be up early to go over to the Wirral perhaps.
Seriously though all of the birds that I find tomorrow will be self-found as I generally, but not always go birding alone. Do you guys go round in groups telling each other what you've seen?
-- Edited by sid ashton at 22:25, 2008-12-30
Iain Johnson said
Tue Dec 30 10:02 PM, 2008
Ian McKerchar wrote:
Iain Johnson wrote:
&
Not sure on the rules of this but having been stood or sat next to someone who has found a bird, e.g. black tern, i don't see how I can claim to tick this a self found as someone has pointed it out to me although I'm reliably informed that if you are one of the first 3 birders to see the bird you can justifably claim to have found it.
-- Edited by Iain Johnson at 21:12, 2008-12-30
Never heard that one before Iain but how can they claim to have self-found something like that just because they were amongst the first three people to have seen it? If that were the case I'd have last year's Lands End Buff-bellied Pipit on my list
As for enjoying your birding Sid, don't forget it's horses for courses here, everyone enjoys birding in different ways and that's part of the beauty of it, there's nothing better than finding your own birds and for some it becomes a large and very enjoyable part of their birding. I'm one of the latter but I know I don't enjoy my birding less than anyone else.
something one of my mates has said to me a couple of times but i disagree with it and it may be his own rules rather than the rule!
David Winnard said
Tue Dec 30 9:58 PM, 2008
Not a bad idea sid with the club points......or even trading ticks
Im doubled up on Manchester Osprey - 2 sightings - i will trade 1 for a Manchester Water Pipit Tick
Dave
sid ashton said
Tue Dec 30 9:54 PM, 2008
Blimey and I thought that you just had to put your bins round your neck and your scope over your shoulder a see what you find - so you actually get points for this exercise bit like Tesco club points I assume
Ian McKerchar said
Tue Dec 30 9:52 PM, 2008
Iain Johnson wrote:
&
Not sure on the rules of this but having been stood or sat next to someone who has found a bird, e.g. black tern, i don't see how I can claim to tick this a self found as someone has pointed it out to me although I'm reliably informed that if you are one of the first 3 birders to see the bird you can justifably claim to have found it.
-- Edited by Iain Johnson at 21:12, 2008-12-30
Never heard that one before Iain but how can they claim to have self-found something like that just because they were amongst the first three people to have seen it? If that were the case I'd have last year's Lands End Buff-bellied Pipit on my list
As for enjoying your birding Sid, don't forget it's horses for courses here, everyone enjoys birding in different ways and that's part of the beauty of it, there's nothing better than finding your own birds and for some it becomes a large and very enjoyable part of their birding. I'm one of the latter but I know I don't enjoy my birding less than anyone else.
Paul Heaton said
Tue Dec 30 9:50 PM, 2008
Sid we dont worry its just adding a little bit more fun to a trip out, and I must admit Ians 500+ points on the tournament is outstanding, and I am really looking forward to his article in the new year,and so you know I dont worry my New years resolution is.
'knickers' (quote moderated not to offend any of our younger readers which include 12 year old Hannah ) to moderation, slow down and if its illegal immoral and fattening go for it but
keep birding.
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar at 21:54, 2008-12-30
David Winnard said
Tue Dec 30 9:47 PM, 2008
It heightens the enjoyment Sid - you can enjoy the birds you see and keep those primeval urges under control I think it also helps your birding skills and adds to your knowledge, and if i didnt enjoy it, i wouldnt do it.
Its the commoner birds where the problems lies - the UK250 club seem to have a good answer;
'6. All species which breed commonly in GB & I (i.e. not on Schedule 1 of the 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act) can be classed as found without the principle of "genuine surprise" applying (Rules 4 & 5). All other rules of the UK 250 Club still apply; in other words, these species must still have been found and identified by yourself. A list of rare breeding birds on Schedule 1 which can also be counted in this way is given in Appendix 1 at the end of the rules. This is due to these species being so sedentary and restricted in their geographical range and habitat that finding them away from their well known breeding areas would be virtually impossible.'
So for the Hawfinch, you would have to be the one to find it, rather than be shown it.
I am more than sure i will be asking for advice on what i can count as 2009 progresses!
Dave - very confused, but excited!
sid ashton said
Tue Dec 30 9:34 PM, 2008
I think that you all worry too much about ticks and listing - why don't you all go out and just enjoy the birds that you see?
Sid A
P.S.My UK year list is approximately 198 species where can I find those other 2 tomorrow - don't know - don't care!!!
-- Edited by sid ashton at 21:48, 2008-12-30
Iain Johnson said
Tue Dec 30 9:12 PM, 2008
"but my problem is how do you find a coot or mallard by accident for surely just going to a pool you are going to expect one therefore knowing it was there before you went, you could not have found it, as you knew it was there?"
Paul, et al,
an interesting view point and one that I share as I already have a self list for the UK and have deliberated over this many times both in my own mind and with a regular birding mate.
For instance, how can I count Hawfinch at a traditional site such as the one in North Lancs or Willow Tit at Pennington for that matter as I know these are reliable sites for these species. I find this hard to justify this being a self found tick because someone has provide me with that knowledge at some stage in my birding career. Yes, I still have to find the bird but I know it will be there somewhere.
Not sure on the rules of this but having been stood or sat next to someone who has found a bird, e.g. black tern, i don't see how I can claim to tick this a self found as someone has pointed it out to me although I'm reliably informed that if you are one of the first 3 birders to see the bird you can justifably claim to have found it.
I suppose you could argue Paul that everytime you go out, you have a reasonable idea of what species you are likely to find and limit it further once you decide upon your location and therefore habitats.
Any other thoughts?
That said, a commendable effort Dave!
Cheers e
-- Edited by Iain Johnson at 21:12, 2008-12-30
Ian McKerchar said
Tue Dec 30 9:04 PM, 2008
Paul Heaton wrote:
Interesting way of birding Mr Winnard, and the uk250 club rules were the foundation of this method of birding, however Punkbirders also have a self found set of rules ( see links on the website) and I believe Ian has his own rules as well, but my problem is how do you find a coot or mallard by accident for surely just going to a pool you are going to expect one therefore knowing it was there before you went, you could not have found it, as you knew it was there? have fun.
Keep birding
I pretty much have always followed the Punkbirder's rules as they echo my own, other than the 'accidental finding' point, if you didn't have pager, didn't look at this forum and didn't speak to any birders, you could pretty much wander up to any pre-found county rare or scarce you like and claim to have found it also, doesn't seem right really If that's the case it would be best to visit Pennington Flash around the afternoon when the hides are empty and claim whatever you find, despite the fact that over half a dozen birders will have already seen it earlier in the morning! Self-finding is about just that, finding birds for yourself, if someone's beated you to it, even unbeknown to you, then that's just tough. I know that's how the top self-found listers in the UK work, and I agree with them
As for Coots, Mallards and the like, I believe I did follow a self-found route which will be explained and each individual species outlined in the website article.
Paul Heaton said
Tue Dec 30 8:15 PM, 2008
Interesting way of birding Mr Winnard, and the uk250 club rules were the foundation of this method of birding, however Punkbirders also have a self found set of rules ( see links on the website) and I believe Ian has his own rules as well, but my problem is how do you find a coot or mallard by accident for surely just going to a pool you are going to expect one therefore knowing it was there before you went, you could not have found it, as you knew it was there? have fun.
Keep birding
David Winnard said
Tue Dec 30 7:46 PM, 2008
Will just have to make sure mine will be higher
I think i will have a laugh trying and hopefully get too tick off more of the manchester birders along the way. I take it your going to be too busy counting moths in a certain competition coming up Henerz?
Dave
Henry Cook said
Tue Dec 30 7:38 PM, 2008
I hope Ian's total doesn't put you off you ambition to find a load of birds in Gtr Manc this coming year Dave. I think the magic number might be rather high!
David Winnard said
Tue Dec 30 6:10 PM, 2008
I await the report with great interest!
dave
Ian McKerchar said
Tue Dec 30 6:02 PM, 2008
This is not the place for such totals Dave and the full account will be published on or around the turn of the New Year on the website, but I did do rather well I think
David Winnard said
Tue Dec 30 6:00 PM, 2008
What was your magic number Mr McKerchar (well you still have one more day)? It will give me something to aim for
Ian McKerchar said
Tue Dec 30 5:52 PM, 2008
As is known to only a very small handful of birders before now, I did my own self-found county year list this year, which explains why I did so well in the Tournament
David Winnard said
Tue Dec 30 4:38 PM, 2008
I fancied a bit of change for 2009 so i have decided to have a go at how many species i can find on my own in Manchester in 2009. It may seem weird to think of what is self found but there is the UK 250 Club rules (to which i am following);
http://www.surfbirds.com/uk250club.html
Basically i fancy a year list challenge, but do not have the time or money to chase all the rarities that are found in 09 in Manchester.
So theres my gauntlet, will keep everyone informed - i have set 120 as my target - i have no idea if this is achieveable or not, only one way to find out!
Dave
Had a bit of a bird race in Rochdale with Paul today - i didnt take note on who found what etc but i do remember finding the following;
Wigeon (Scarce in Rochdale) - 2 Ogden Res
Stock Dove - 1 at Birtle - not really known here
Peregrine - Ogden Res
Great Crested Grebe - 1 at AMR - first in a while up there
Will have to go out and improve my total so far when i am back in the county in a few days
Dave
Hi Sid,
Just noticed that you had a spin round the Wirral today. Did you get the extra 2 for 200? Not that either of us is counting
Cheers, John
-- Edited by John Rayner at 17:18, 2008-12-31
My year list was on 192 so I thought Martin Mere should be OK for him to handle, and Dave Thacker and Les Steele have had some good birds there this week, and get me some more ticks
I thought I'd show him how it's done with the first one so using my field craft nailed the hardest one for him first- Whooper Swan
Now go and get me Bewick Swan, Barn Owl, White-fronted Goose and Green-winged Teal (still counts as a tick for now) as they are around somewhere. Just to make it difficult I threw in a blanket of fog so you couldn't actually see the field where the White-Front was in
So What did he do? Spent most of the day doing Arty photos of my Whooper Swans and hanging out of the window trying to photograph stoats!
He just won't take points and prizes seriously and keeps trying to enjoy himself
To be honest I needed him to teach me how to photograph birds in flight as I missed a great opportunity with Bittern yesterday and he's sorted it I think
That just sums up what me, him and most people in these comps are in it for and it is enjoyment at whatever level. Some of us though just need that bit of extra to make it interesting- a bit like playing sports in a league rather than friendlies-we can't all win it but it's good to take part.
We did something similar in Rochdale before the forum started and it made you get out and look for the likes of Gadwall and Shoveler in Rochdale ( still havn't found Shoveler!)- It gave more coverage of the borough and I made more friendships and improved my birding skills.
Not only has Ian created a fantastic site, but reading betwen the lines, has achieved those 3 objectives with his site and competitions- something which all birders in the county benefit from whether competing or not
David will give it his best shot, despite my coaching
I hope people don't drop on reporting, as personally with little time to go out a lot, I learn by following them up and am very grateful for them
As Woosey says, just do whatever you like
Happy New Year to everyone
Steve
My year list was on 192 so I thought Martin Mere should be OK for him to handle, and Dave Thacker and Les Steele have had some good birds there this week, and get me some more ticks
I thought I'd show him how it's done with the first one so using my field craft nailed the hardest one for him first- Whooper Swan
Now go and get me Bewick Swan, Barn Owl, White-fronted Goose and Green-winged Teal (still counts as a tick for now) as they are around somewhere. Just to make it difficult I threw in a blanket of fog so you couldn't actually see the field where the White-Front was in
So What did he do? Spent most of the day doing Arty photos of my Whooper Swans and hanging out of the window trying to photograph stoats!
He just won't take points and prizes seriously and keeps trying to enjoy himself
To be honest I needed him to teach me how to photograph birds in flight as I missed a great opportunity with Bittern yesterday and he's sorted it I think
That just sums up what me, him and most people in these comps are in it for and it is enjoyment at whatever level. Some of us though just need that bit of extra to make it interesting- a bit like playing sports in a league rather than friendlies-we can't all win it but it's good to take part.
We did something similar in Rochdale before the forum started and it made you get out and look for the likes of Gadwall and Shoveler in Rochdale ( still havn't found Shoveler!)- It gave more coverage of the borough and I made more friendships and improved my birding skills.
Not only has Ian created a fantastic site, but reading betwen the lines, has achieved those 3 objectives with his site and competitions- something which all birders in the county benefit from whether competing or not
David will give it his best shot, despite my coaching
I hope people don't drop on reporting, as personally with little time to go out a lot, I learn by following them up and am very grateful for them
As Woosey says, just do whatever you like
Happy New Year to everyone
Steve
very difficult to post without looking - especially if you're concerned about repeat postings...
i love birding, getting out and about and the beauty of finding anything... not long enough in the tooth for extreme challenges by a long shot yet!
Sid A
P.S.My UK year list is approximately 198 species where can I find those other 2 tomorrow - don't know - don't care!!!
Hi Sid,
Just noticed that you had a spin round the Wirral today. Did you get the extra 2 for 200? Not that either of us is counting
Cheers, John
-- Edited by John Rayner at 17:18, 2008-12-31
Brian, my own view on this particular species (and some other species) is that if you found willow tit at pennington without being told where to find them then fine yes you can tick them but if you were told where to go and see them even in subsequent years then no you can't count them as self found.
Maybe I'm being pedantic here but if someone tells you where to go then surely thats not self found is it?
BUT this is my own POV and may not necessary be shared by others including Ian's much anticipated article!!
cheers e
Where are the rules for the Manchester Tournament to be found please?
Sid A
-- Edited by sid ashton at 16:09, 2008-12-31
-- Edited by brian fielding at 22:30, 2008-12-30
Seriously though all of the birds that I find tomorrow will be self-found as I generally, but not always go birding alone. Do you guys go round in groups telling each other what you've seen?
-- Edited by sid ashton at 22:25, 2008-12-30
something one of my mates has said to me a couple of times but i disagree with it and it may be his own rules rather than the rule!
Im doubled up on Manchester Osprey - 2 sightings - i will trade 1 for a Manchester Water Pipit Tick
Dave
Never heard that one before Iain
As for enjoying your birding Sid, don't forget it's horses for courses here, everyone enjoys birding in different ways and that's part of the beauty of it, there's nothing better than finding your own birds and for some it becomes a large and very enjoyable part of their birding. I'm one of the latter but I know I don't enjoy my birding less than anyone else.
'knickers' (quote moderated not to offend any of our younger readers which include 12 year old Hannah
keep birding.
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar at 21:54, 2008-12-30
Its the commoner birds where the problems lies - the UK250 club seem to have a good answer;
'6. All species which breed commonly in GB & I (i.e. not on Schedule 1 of the 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act) can be classed as found without the principle of "genuine surprise" applying (Rules 4 & 5). All other rules of the UK 250 Club still apply; in other words, these species must still have been found and identified by yourself. A list of rare breeding birds on Schedule 1 which can also be counted in this way is given in Appendix 1 at the end of the rules. This is due to these species being so sedentary and restricted in their geographical range and habitat that finding them away from their well known breeding areas would be virtually impossible.'
So for the Hawfinch, you would have to be the one to find it, rather than be shown it.
I am more than sure i will be asking for advice on what i can count as 2009 progresses!
Dave - very confused, but excited!
Sid A
P.S.My UK year list is approximately 198 species where can I find those other 2 tomorrow - don't know - don't care!!!
-- Edited by sid ashton at 21:48, 2008-12-30
Paul, et al,
an interesting view point and one that I share as I already have a self list for the UK and have deliberated over this many times both in my own mind and with a regular birding mate.
For instance, how can I count Hawfinch at a traditional site such as the one in North Lancs or Willow Tit at Pennington for that matter as I know these are reliable sites for these species. I find this hard to justify this being a self found tick because someone has provide me with that knowledge at some stage in my birding career. Yes, I still have to find the bird but I know it will be there somewhere.
Not sure on the rules of this but having been stood or sat next to someone who has found a bird, e.g. black tern, i don't see how I can claim to tick this a self found as someone has pointed it out to me although I'm reliably informed that if you are one of the first 3 birders to see the bird you can justifably claim to have found it.
I suppose you could argue Paul that everytime you go out, you have a reasonable idea of what species you are likely to find and limit it further once you decide upon your location and therefore habitats.
Any other thoughts?
That said, a commendable effort Dave!
Cheers e
-- Edited by Iain Johnson at 21:12, 2008-12-30
I pretty much have always followed the Punkbirder's rules as they echo my own, other than the 'accidental finding' point, if you didn't have pager, didn't look at this forum and didn't speak to any birders, you could pretty much wander up to any pre-found county rare or scarce you like and claim to have found it also, doesn't seem right really
As for Coots, Mallards and the like, I believe I did follow a self-found route which will be explained and each individual species outlined in the website article.
have fun.
Keep birding
I think i will have a laugh trying and hopefully get too tick off more of the manchester birders along the way. I take it your going to be too busy counting moths in a certain competition coming up Henerz?
Dave
dave