I can't believe the number of responses in just 24 hours.
I actually asked the question with out having a view, just wondered what others would think!.
I wonder what the result of the tournament would be if birds seen at permit sites were not counted?, probably not much different but I don't know.
Possibly the most important thing to remember is that birds have wings so FLY out of sites(hopefully to Elton) a permit is needed to visit(do the birds need permits?).
Anyway, lots of thought provoking responses, very interesting views.
Happy Christmas to all.
Cheers Ian

Steven Astley wrote:

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Do you get a prize for finishing bottom, like a new pair of bins, as they probably need it the most.

-- Edited by Steven Astley at 18:15, 2007-12-17

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They including me and my nil points. Just like to thank all those dedicated skilled birders out there who have found stuff this year. Really enjoyed those Ring Ouzels earlier this year.
Makes you wonder what would happen if a certain few lost the bug of finding things.

Tournament aside. The 6 million dollar question is - what would be the consequences and or repercussions in the event of a major UK rarity turning up at a private site, especially a long stayer ?. Negotiations should be in place for such an event to allow access, provision for the marshalling of visitors and of course the generation of £££'s.

my twopenneth

of course it,s fair,otherwise a novice like my good self wouldn,t have got on the board, I enquired about the shell site but could not commit the time required,an audenshaw pass would be wasted because I would only go to see what others had already found,
so if you,ve got access to any of the private site,s well done and enjoy the fruit of your labours.But who needs a private site there are thousands of acres of gm that are rarely checked by birders even less by tournament entrants,mr wooseys high rid find ( he must have been lost/cunning to winkle that one out) and dave broomes cetti,s are fine examples of intrepid birding were others don,t.So find yourself a private patch and enjoy.

cheers geoff

Do you get a prize for finishing bottom, like a new pair of bins, as they probably need it the most.

-- Edited by Steven Astley at 18:15, 2007-12-17

"Don`t worry I have no intention of really going for it next year".........????????????

Just who are you trying to kid Macker ?

I`ve seen this mon in Manchester city centre hanging out of his fire engine window craning his neck to find birds (and not only the feathered variety either !)

Bench-mark indeed !

Don't worry I have no intention of really going for it next year, something which I openly admit to doing this year! Frankly I've gone out to set a total, a bench mark perhaps, 300 points was it but I'm a little short so far so I'm still out there looking wherever I think my next points might be, and I have a few possibles left yet

Next year will be a more sedate affair (honest) but as far as I'm concerned it's worth being in as you just never know what, when and where you might bump into the next county first record! For me though I intend to concentrate on more out-of-county rarity finding (said that for this year and it never really materialized ) and more effort at Pennington, hopefully picking up more than a few 'countables' along the way.

This year's far from over yet but I've obviously been impressed by the 'Rochdale boys' efforts and it was a welcome breath of fresh air for us 'lowlanders' to find out what's going on in them there hills . I look forward to writing the end of year summary and if you're not in for the 2008 Tournament yet then get your name down now. Alan, I have PM'd you with regards your Tournament, I think you might be entering without too much working-over

Elton is already spoken for but thanks anyway

I can see the argument from both sides, however if we were to handicap people who watch Audi, Heaton Pk etc, it may mean they become underwatched.
I suspect Wigan Flashes will become much more watched into 2008 as the Cettis hopefully shows its head off in spring,
And then theres the likelyhood of Bearded Tit turning up there as the reedbed looks ideal.
Beardies have been at Woolston Eyes in the last 2 Autumns, seen by me in 2006.
Ian I am still to decide about the "Tournament" suggest you work on me !!!

See you at Elton Res Dave, might even venture to AMR a little more often seeing the points you gained there.

-- Edited by Alan Warford at 12:15, 2007-12-17

Cheers Ian,

thanks for your imput as usual, told you it was a bitter 2nd place rochdale birder talking
looking forward to beating you in 2008 (i wish!) and i will be making those bold steps out of rochdale in 08, who knows maybe the exotic location of Elton Res will tempt me out (I can see that res from Ashworth Moor Res and they get sooooo much more, its teasing me!)

Dave

Actually, the Tournament seems pretty fair to me as it's all about self-found birds and, as John says, it's all down to time spent in the field - my miserable score testifies to that!

How about a subsidiary handicap award next year? I'm prepared to donate a prize for it! Marks for your percentage improvement on your 2007 score (that means MacKerchar won't win it!). Obviously it will only be open to this year's entrants.

Steve

Okay, here goes (large draw for breath )

Fair. Fair! Fair? What's not to be fair?

Private sites are indeed an unfortunate evil I agree but are they all that private? Both Heaton Park and Audenshaw Reservoirs have had open access for permits for, well, a bloody long time now and exactly how many birders took up the offer? Shell Nature Reserve was asking for new permit holders only earlier this year, it was up on the county notice board for nearly two months and who took them up on that offer? Private sites have always been included in the annual county report, they're there for all to see and so are the birds that have graced them, so you have to ask yourself why you haven't applied for a permit before if it's so good? It seems that with the advent of the Tournament or more specifically at times with the increase in competative county listing (yes, I realise I'm largely to blame for that ) that now we all want in, to catch up with a Glaucous or better still a Caspian gull now they've been split, or to visit a couple of times a year when a good rarity's there, but what about those birders who've spent a hell of a lot of their time giving coverage to these sites (and god bless those flippin' hardy souls at Audenshaw) mainly with nothing to show, should their efforts not be countable in the Tournament, just because their local patch happens to be permit only? Does the fact that I have access to Heaton Park mean that I can just walk up and pick any rarity at random and claim the points? I wish it were that easy, try lots of bloody cold nights spent searching through thousands of gulls (yes, I love it ) and on the very rare occasion something pops up, but I don't think that's unfair, is it?

So anyway, the question is 'does having access to private sites put me at an advantage in the Manchester Tournament'? Of course not!

The permit site I visit (Heaton Park Res., I'm not hardy enough to even think of Audenshaw) has been a regular patch for around 7 years now and in that time it's only really had 3 other regulars even though permits were freely available, it's not my fault they've gone and slapped a restriction on numbers is it? I still have to get up there to find stuff and also cover Pennington, Hope Carr, Astley Moss, Rumworth and the Horwich Moors regularly in between, that's my whole tactic, cover as many sites as regularly as possible, always has been Where do I find the time? Well I only work 2 actual day shifts in every eight and pretty much all other time (except for Saturdays during the rugby season) are spent birding, with nights now almost entirely occupied with this website! Paul Heaton is competing in next years Tournament and his local patch is Shell Nature Reserve, I positively badgered him to enter, the fact that his site is permit only has no bearing for me, he's still got to put the time and effort in to find his birds and that's the whole point of it

The boys are right, it's a crying shame that Pennington receives a fraction of it's previous coverage (I fully intend to counter that next year though) and that the Wigan Flashes is perhaps even worse. Private sites? There's more than enough sites to go around in this county and each is as good as the next, don't believe me? If you've never heard the tale of Geoff Lightfoot's exploits around the particluarly unattractive Adswood Tip in south Manchester of years gone by, then his mind numbing perseverance around that site and the amazing birds he found should be a lesson to us all.

The Tournament is on a level playing field, it's the same points and rules for everyone. Wanna go to a permit only site, then apply for a permit and see what happens, exempting birders from permit only sites would wholly unfairly exclude lots of birders who's regular patches they are and that is entirely contrary to the conception of the Tournament.

JUST FOR FUN

I dont have a problem with Ian winning and think if he didnt it would be a disaster, and we all totally understand about pennington, all i think it why should private sites be included? in a tournament the field should be a level one? out of everyone in the tournament i am pritty sure i have the most free time (3 months over the migration time in july august sept and bits of oct!) but i dont really want to travel around manc (or can afford it!) all i think is, is that if i was wanting to go out in manc and chase points then i could go to all the sites everyone else can. all the points i have come from rochdale alone and from sites where anyone can go to, i never changed my birding plans for the tournament - otherwise i would be all over manc. It is something to think about for 2008 one though. points only from public land.

This is an interesting thread

dave

I'm not a 'tournamenteer' nor someone who is ever likely to chase around the county so my views may be a bit at odds with some, but I must say I'd have to agree with John, particularly about Pennington.

Audenshaw and Heaton Park are two of the best (if not best ) sites for Gulls in the County, but when was the last time anyone did any serious checking of the Gull Roost at Pennington? Someone could be checking every evening but I doubt it.

During a two year period whilst I was working there a then well known county birder regularly checked it and often turned up Glaucous, Iceland, Yellow Legged and Med Gulls, as well as other interesting non gull species coming to roost. Many of these had gone the next morning. I do know that the roost at Pennington might not be as big as others, and it certainly never seemed consistent as far as numbers go, or for timing - seems to take ages to build up. It can also be akward getting the best vantage point dependent on weather, light etc. But, it does get some good numbers and has in the past produced the rarer spp.

I've never been a particularly keen Laraphile (cant stand the little blighters if I'm honest) and have never had that much patience for checking gull roosts, but if you fancy finding your own good gulls I'd suggest giving Pennington a go.

THERES ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO CAN SEE MORE THAN OTHERS-ITS NOT DOWN TO PERMITS ITS DOWN TO TIME SPENT IN THE FIELD!!I CAN ONLY GET OUT ONCE OR TWICE A WEEK DUE TO WORK,OTHERS CAN SPEND EVERY DAY BIRDING!I KNOW IF I WAS IN THE POSITION I WAS IN THE EARLY 80S ON PENNY EVERY DAY-ID HAVE ENTERED THE TOURNIMENT AND PROBABLY BE AT THE TOPISH-THERE IS AT LEAST 1 PERSON AT PENNY WHO WOULD HAVE TOPPED THE LIST THIS YEAR HAD HE ENTERED.IAN MUST HAVE SPENT A HELL OF A LOT OF WHAT LITTLE FREE TIME HE HAS,TO TOP THE LIST,HOW HE FITS THAT IN WITH JOB ,FAMILY ,I DON'T KNOW?ITS JUST DEDICATION,FIELDCRAFT AND KNOWLEDGE & A LITTLE LUCK

Now here is a very good thread,and the answer is no its not fair, I have a permit for shell nature res( hard to get) audenshaw( difficult to get) astley moss ( perhaps the only one with a permit )
and seaforth ( urge you all to get ), so this is the way birding has gone nowadays permits permits and no access, So yes its not fair.
I put my name forward for the 2008 tournament and have access to all the sites what do you do,
after recent events i personally want to go for a self found list, and thats what the tournament is about, but what about non permit holders.
Over to you vice president what do you say

I am in the same boat as you Ian, or is that just a rather bitter 2nd place rochdale birder saying that! I look at Ians 273 points and wonder if you take away the points from sites i could not go to because i do not have a permit - therefore would never have a chance to find them - what would the leader board look like? although if i had a permit i think i would not be saying anything. At the end of the day its all fun and its got me out looking for stuff and its probably no wonder so many good birds have been seen this year by so many people - thats what matters.
As for the 2007 tournament it just means i have to hope for a fall of Bewick Swans at Ashworth Moor Res!

As for lists - each to their own, im about to send Ian my manchester list and will be proud that im in the 190's and not one tick from Aud or heaton! (181 from Rochdale alone - man im sad!).

Dave

Ian Campbell wrote:

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Paul, thanks again for allowing me to tick a goldcrest in your garden).

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Firecrest.

I think people might not like this but:::
Just thinking, is it fair that some people can see the birds that the rest of us can't because they can visit 2 sites that have limited numbers of permits but lots of good birds. Then count them on lists when most could not see them. Not that I keep lists of course,(Simon, when are you goinging to take me to the Jack snipe site?, Paul, thanks again for allowing me to tick a goldcrest in your garden). Honest I'm not bitter(mines a pint!) about this.
p.s.
I mean Aud & Heaton Res
Just a thought!
Cheers Ian
OOOOpps!!!.I obviously dont deserve a permit for anywhere!!!!!!
THANKS Paul I DID mean Fireside, sorry FIRECREST!!!! and it was magic, and I didn't need a permit to see it

-- Edited by Ian Campbell at 20:14, 2007-12-16