Just bought my new bins today from FOTOSENSE in Bolton, mentioned in an earlier post.
I can recommend this shop, they where very helpfull and friendly and i got a good price on my Opticrons after showing them a cheaper price in Birdwatching magazine. They don't have a huge stock of bins but have a good range of Opticrons. Also said they were considering advertising in BW. So keep an eye out. It's out of town centre with easy parking and the viewing from outside the shop isn't bad


Dean.

Thanks for all your comments on my questions below , I am going to have a look at buying a better quality second hand scope than a cheaper new scope.

Ian McKerchar wrote:

---

There's plenty out there and I think second hand units are a bargain as long as you're careful, gotta be quick though in order to secure yours and worth biding your time in order to get exactly what you want.

---

Ian is definitely right about second hand bargains. I recently purchased my Leica bins second hand - they were in mint condition and looked like they had just come out of the box. I saved over £200 as a result. If you do searches for second hand bins or scopes on google or yahoo you will get plenty of hits but it needs time and patience to sift through them all.

There are also plenty of bins and scopes turn up on e-bay.

Ian,

i like it your like the auto mart for scopes !!!!

Andrew

Here's the gen on the Kowa...

kowa 611 scope for sale,plus 2 eyepieces,20x fixed,20x60 zoom.all in mint condition,original boxes.very light scope to carry.£150 quid.no more no less.plus eagleeye adapter for digiscoping.bargain.put pictures up when I learn how.thanks.

There's plenty out there and I think second hand units are a bargain as long as you're careful, gotta be quick though in order to secure yours and worth biding your time in order to get exactly what you want.

How about thinking second hand?

This scope is one of many currently on sale on Birdforum (not a patch on Manchester Birding Forum ), including a Kowa 611 with digiscoping bits for £150, anyway, here it is...

Opticron ES80GA Waterproof Scope body (Pre 2004 when all the ES80's were ED glass) Pristine objective. With Green Skua SOC, £250 + postage
With Opticron HR Zoom eyepiece add £50.

I have been reading this excellent post with interest as I would like to start digiscoping.
My present scope is a 15-45 x 60mm Seben scope from Germany, I paid about £100 for it nearly 4 years ago and it has served its purpose over the years in taking quite a few knocks and scrapes and still works OK. The quality does seem to suffer in low light conditions and at x45 zoom and that is why I want to buy a better scope.

Is it better to buy a scope which will let more light in either 80mm or 100mm for use with a camera or buy a scope which does not have zoom and has a fixed eyepiece of x30 or x40 so the image is clearer.

As Geoff Hargreaves mentioned in the first post about Viper otics MC90 .This seems a decent scope which you do not have to pay silly money to buy.I was looking at the MC118 as this should let in plenty of light and work better in low light conditions and is about £230. For me to spend £800 - £1100 on a scope for the amount of birding that I am able to do is not really worth it . So can someone recommend if there is one, a decent scope for around the £350 mark which I could use with a digital camera.

got my first ever bins from mathers in bolton -8 x30 ziess jenoptem for £28 in 1976,still got em now and still use them occasionally,beltin little bins,took me 12 months of paper rounds and milk round to pay for em .even frank horrocks thought they were belters.who can say better than that.

Just checked and the shop I infact meant was one called Mathers (of Lancashire!) on Market Street , Bolton! They do only deal in Opticron bins and scopes, which let's face it, aren't too shabby

Cheers Dean, I know of a couple of people who've been there and have been very pleased with their purchases

The one in Bolton is called Fotosense. It's on The Valley ind estate. Not had any dealings with them but maybe soon

Dean.

has anyone sampled the new olivon t80 scope? its £200 with free bins (till end of may) but not had chance to check it out yet.

Sounds like you did everything right to me Andrew and I'm glad you're happy with your purchase because at the end of the day, that's all that matters, nothing else

Incidentally, we're pretty well serviced for optics dealers around us with Focalpoint, In Focus, Stockport Binoculars, London Camera Exchange (isn't there one on Parker Street in Manchester city centre) and Pennine Optics (which is where I usually go), also one in Bolton that deals in Opticron gear (the name eludes me at present).

Sticking my nose in on this thread i bought a scope early this year and being new to birding i couldnt justify the Leica/Swarovski type of price as i didnt know how much i would use it or wether it would be one of my passing fad hobbies that i would be bored of within a few mothns ( im glad to say it isnt and im hooked big time ). So a trip over to Pennine Optics in Rochdale followed some research on the net . After talking through my immedite needs and having look at the scopes i settled on the `Hawke Frontier 20-60x85mm` it isnt the lightes scope by a long way as it weighs in at a whopping 1800g, i paid £375 for the scope & tripod as i managed to haggle a good deal it should have been £475for both items i ended up with. But i can say im chuffed to bits with the performance and the overall feel of it is great. So if like me you couldnt justify the big price tag of the top end scope you still hae plent of options available. But one day i will treat myself to the Swarovski as l looked at all the top end scopes to see what i was missing and i can say for me this would be my dream scope.

Cheers

Andrew

Ian Woosey wrote:

---

That was very helpful
The differences might not seem much on the page, but in the field it will tell (from experience ! )
How about a binocular weigh-in Craig ?

---

10x42:
Leica BR 765g
Leica BN 890g
Nikon HGL 790g
Swaro EL 780g
Zeiss FL 765g

Interestingly all 8x42s are quite a bit heavier.

Even sadder - Leica 62 is 1080g.

Ian - interesting you managed digiscoping OK with the small Nikon. I struggle to get a shutter speed of 1/250 on a bright sunny day and if it is windy (which it always is in Horrocks hide!) the vibration frequently causes blurring. I also had a theory that the heavier Leica 77 would be less prone to vibration and also does not tip the scope away from the subject which it does with the smaller scope when a camera is put on the back end. Maybe it is the zoom eye piece I use which restricts light or maybe it is just me trying to digiscope anything that moves within a 1 - 5 mile radius!!!

I have also had very good reports about Nikon.

Obviously a major consideration is price. Typical prices from a well known retailer:

Leica 77 £1099
Leica 62 £789
Swarovski 65 £839
Swarovski 80 £1169
Nikon 60 £569
Nikon 82 £669
Zeiss 65 £629
Zeiss 85 £889

I suspect if you asked lots of birders there will always be a few bad reports about durability etc irrespective of the manufacturer. Ultimately there is no substitute for having a play with different types.

Mike

That was very helpful
The differences might not seem much on the page, but in the field it will tell (from experience ! )
How about a binocular weigh-in Craig ?

Just for info:
Kowa 883 - 1520g
Leica77APO - 1695g
Zeiss 85 - 1450g
Nikon 82ED -1575g
Swaro 80HD - 1350g

(how sad was that)

A common thread running through these posts is the subject of weight. It is for me a very important consideration. If you are out all or most of the day you want to be relatively comfortable. There is nothing worse than neck / shoulder / back ache through lugging heavy gear around. As Ian mentioned I swapped my Nikon 82 for a Swarovski 80 purely because of the weight issue (optically I think they are both on a par. I had a fixed x32 on the Nikon but I went for the zoom with the Swaro, which is simply magic ! ). Of the `top four` I think they are all optically superb (I tried `em all) - I would say buy the best you can afford and seriously think about weight (as Alan said - we are none of us getting any younger)

at the other end of the scale; i bought an opticron piccolo 15-45x60 a couple of years ago for £60 brand new. apart from a slightly blurred and dull image at full zoom, i honestly cannot fault this scope. its been knocked about a bit but the image is still bright and crisp and its really light and quite compact. after looking through my scope, other birders cannot believe the price they're going for. well worth a look

ive had every type of bins known to man and none ive seen match the lieca 8x42 i have now.i think only swarovski come anywere near.as for scopes in 30 years ive never had a proper one.must get round to it soon .ive been eyeing up the miniture nikon scope thats now available,optically they seem superb.but it just seems strange when a good eyepeice costs the same as the scope.the scopes about 270,and about 250 for the eyepeice.its very small and very light.which like mike says is important to me with lugging the camera too.

is there that much difference in weight between the little Leica and the big Swarovski? Infact the difference in weight between them all can easily be offset by buying a lighter tripod or wearing a lighter jacket (think Gortex paclite), carrying less crisps, sweets, sarnies in your pockets, loosing a bit of weight, getting your hair cut etc etc...how far do we go (that said of course, it was a big factor in the purchase of mine though )

Your comments on digiscoping Mike are interesting as I had a Nikon 60mm ED before and experienced little problems on this front although I think the bigger 80mm lens I have now may make a difference, I can't say I've really noticed

I have a pair a of about 4 years old Swarovski EL's that have been absolutely hammered daily and they have given perfect service, sure they look a little battered but I don't half put them through it. I did have a pair of Leica Ultravid binoculars for a very short period and was very impressed by these little beauties, optically they were awsome, virtually nothing to choose between them and my Swarovski's but they were superbly small and tremendously light, unfortunately though I couldn't comment on the build quality over a period of time (you out there Jimmy?) and have heard of some recent trouble with Leica's after service? I haven't looked through the new Zeiss bins but have heard great things about them (they don't half look ugly though) and for me Nikons bins were always the best optically on side by side tests but were extremely heavy, something they have apparently ammended with a new lighter pair.

Hi Gary

I have had a Lecia 62 APO for the last 2 yrs along with the 16-48 zoom eyepiece. It is a superb little scope and I have encountered very few instances when the magnification was not enough. It is very lightweight and as I also lug around bins and a camera, the weight saving is important.

My one bug bear is that after I had purchased the scope I decided I would like to try digiscoping. My scope is too small for most conditions and I miss an awful lot of opportunities due to slow shutter speeds on the camera. If I had my time again I would probably go for the Leica 77 or the Swarovski HD80 and tolerate the additional weight.

Incidentally I recentally purchased some new bins. I was leaning towards Swarovski, however several people I know commented that they do not stand up well to heavy use - don't know if this is true but on the back of it I went for Leica bins instead. I found virtually no optical difference between Leica and Swarovski having field tested both.

The other thing I like about my Leica scope is that, being a bit of a clumsy bu**er, it gets a bit of a hammering and still delivers the goods. High winds in Anglesey belw my tripod over in a car park - the scope hit the deck with a crash and I thought that was it; however apart from a scuff mark it was perfectly fine.

Have a good long think about what you want from the scope and decide what features are important and what you are going to do with the scope:

Magnification
Weight
Optical performance
Durability
Digiscoping?

Rgds

Mike

thanks everyone for your help very interesting comments ill be raiding the kids piggy banks soon just hope my wife doesnt find out

Hi Gary

I purchased a KOWA TSN663 in 2001, my reason for choosing it was partly weight, optically it is very good,
having a 66mm obective lens, it probably lacks slighly compared to bigger lens in poor light, but on the whole I'm very pleased with it. We all get older and weight is something to consider. I use a 30x fixed lens eyepeice which has reasonable field of view. But its your choice, suggest you go to Focal Point South of Warrington where you can try them out.

Cheers Alan

Gary,

Would have to second what Ian says. I looked at all the alternatives a few years ago befor buying my Leica 77APO. I've always liked Leica stuff but the thing that really swung it for me was simply the focus wheel. I dont like barrel focus so that ruled out the Swaro (old style- new ones weren't out then) and the Nikon. The Zeiss and Kowa's just didnt compare to any of these three so that ruled them out as well. I personally prefer a fixed Mag eyepiece (32x in my case), but am considering a Zoom since Leica redesigned theirs.

The Leica is big and a bit on the heavy side, but you can knock tent pegs in with it (that should not be taken as a recommended thing to do by the way) , and it helps with stability. I use a Manfrotto aluminium tripod with a 'Mule' and dont realy notice the weight except after a really long day when I must admit you do feel it a bit.

Like Ian said, scopes choice is a personal thing, nearly as much as buying Bins, and if you're buying top end stuff theres not a lot between them but your own personal little preferences, and if you're paying 12-1500 quid they are what matters.

Incidentally there is a Leica 77APO with two eyepieces and a case for sale on the Spurn Bird Observatory web page for about £1100 I think.

-- Edited by Craig H at 23:33, 2007-05-14

Choosing a telescope (as any optics) is purely a personal preference, what's good for one may not appeal to another, but I tested telescopes fairly recently and found the following:

Leica APO (77mm)- optically excellent, but too big and heavy for the amount I'd be lugging it about.

Leica APO (62mm)- again, optically couldn't knock it but I specifically wanted a zoom lens and although the 62mm performed admirably with a zoom, a larger 80mm+ telescope lets in more light and in poor conditions performs better and lets face it the weather in the UK isn't always great........

Nikon ED (82mm)- for me, this was (as Nikons usually are) optically the best 'scope but again it is heavy (so heavy Ian Woosey's little arms couldn't handle his so he swapped it) and Nikon's zoom lens is poor with a 'keyhole' like field of view, not good!

Ziess (85mm)- I went out with the intention to buy this 'scope I had heard so many good things about it but was terribly dissappointed when I looked through it. I found the yellowish cast to the image unnacceptable, the 'barrelling' of the edges of the image at low magnification off putting (and no I didn't feel like I'd get used to it) and the overall feel and build quality of the 'scope to be rather 'flimsy'.

Swarovski HD (80mm)- the one I ended up with! I'd always been impressed by this 'scope but the price had put me off, it is silly money really, but then if you use it a lot (like I do) it soon pays for itself and as they say, "you only get one pair of eyes". Firstly the 'scope, for a 80mm, is very small and incredibly light yet has superb build quality, optically for me atleast, it is superb and still impresses me everytime I look through it, the zoom is magnificent and has a good field of view, basically I haven't found anything I don't like about it yet, other than the steep price! Finally, Swarovski's after sales service is second to none, it is superb which is more than can be said about afew of the others...

Kowa- have introduced a new 80+mm 'scope that is receiving rave reviews (one rated it as the best of them all?)and must warrant a test, especially as the price seems very reasonable but I haven't seen one or through one for myself yet.

There are others on the market, the old 77mm Kowas, perhaps a second hand version of the old Swarovski which optically atleast is virtually the same as the current version, give them all a test if you can and which ever you choose, as long as you're happy with it, it will increase your pleasure no end

im seriously thinking of splashing out on a new scope does anyone have any preferences leica or swarrofskis,size -and zoom or fixed lens.Maybe somone out there has tried both.

-- Edited by Gary at 17:45, 2007-05-14

hi,all i,m currently trying to change my email system(not there yet)and noticed i hadn,t filled in my biography when i changed my account details during the smew incident in jan, so apologeys to anyone who,s bothered to have look and many thanks to all those who have helped me find some very nice county birds in recent months.While i,m at it, i know i mention affordability now and again and the entry level optics available,its just that when i started i dismissed owning a scope because of the cost involved,having a birthday and christmas prezzey rolled into an ebay purchase (viper optics mc90 ) i moved up a few levels in viewing pleasure.Having now seen the difference quality optics can make (thanks to ian and jimmy)to viewing i,m starting an offshore scope account, but untill it matures i'm quite happy with me 'smew spotter' and would encourage any scope less birders to get on the ladder however they can. cheers geoff