hi craig you probably wouldn't have bumped into me much over the last ten years as im an avid patch watcher and 10 years ago i started watching houghton green pool at warrington,for about 8 of them years it was,almost like my own reserve ,hardley any other person onbut a new owner changed that,he stopped letting the local farmer,graze his cattle by the pool,the cattle used to keep dogwalkers away,then he put fish in and started using it for fishing ,then the final straw came when he let 50 ruddy ducks get shot by defra on the pool,for a while,i continued trating the pool as my local patch ,but the birds are just not the same there any more,like today 11 black necked grebes,and 1 tufted.the grebes are great ,but this water used to be packed with stuff.so i made a decision about 8 months ago to return to what realy is my home penny,you will probably have seen me with my partner sue,i never have my scope ,but always now carry my nikon camera.we generally go on plank lane end ,and right round if i have time.the flash is still a great place.and you never know soon we may be turning those great record up again.enjoy penny,theres not many places like it for free.

JOHN TYMON wrote:

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hi craig-don't know whether you know me or not,but the flash was my second home for almost 20 years between 1976-1996,so with that sort of history behind me,it just doasn't seem to get the waders etc it used to,maybe its global warming or something,or maybe like you say it could just be like yourself due to work etc,and living out of county,i only get to the flash now about once or twice a week.i know that if its possible to do the flash properly daily.you will turn plenty of birds up.thats been proved today with black tern,osprey,maybe im not as lucky as i used to be but the flash when i have been recently,has been quiet for the time of year.in any numbers this year i can only remember redshank,oystercatcher,a few b t godwits.i would normally 20 years ago to have expected a dozen dunlin,3 or 4 turnstone,ruff,greenshank,the odd rarity,spotted redshank,stint,curlew sands,plenty of ringed plover etc or i may be wrong

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John,

dont believe I've ever met you personally, but you're name is definitely not unfamiliar - bit of a legend almost, along with the others that Ian names.

I see where youre coming from, and as I only started birding at Pennington in 1996 I can't comment on what happened before. But, I have heard the almost mythical tales of the things that used to occur - flocks of yellow wagtails, SEO over what is now the front of New Hide. Perhaps the numbers arent there like they used to be, but that might be, as you suggest, due to other things such as climate change. It may be that some of the works at places like Wigan Flashes have made the habitat at other sites more suitable and these areas are sharing birds. Its interesting that as some things have declined, others have come to the fore. People are always amazed at the number of Bullfinches in the Feeding Station, but even 10years ago there were never the numbers that are there now.

I have seen some fairly impressive (for an inland site) wader flocks on the site - 40+Curlew one evening, 12+ roosting Common Sandpipers and large numbers of Redshank and Dunlin, and I agree it would be nice if this was more often the case.

The fact that in 10 years of birding at the Flash I've never knowingly met you adds weight to the argument that the area is probably underwatched. If two humans can avoid bumping into each other what chance of finding those elusive LBJ's Especially as a lot of birders never leave the hides. I cant remember the last time I saw a 'non-local' on the south side or on the rucks. I must admit to being a bit guilty of this as well at times, especially in the evenings when I only have an hour or so. The chances of something dropping in on the spit are too good to ignore compared to an hour on the south side being the logic that I, and others probably, employ.

As for premier site staus - I really cant comment. I've never been to Audenshaw, Heaton Park, actually I've not been to many GM sites in the East of the county. I do know 'I' think the flash is the best site, otherwise I wouldnt keep going back. Its horses for courses in that respect.

Perhaps we'll eventually bump into each other next time a 'Biggie' turns up John.



-- Edited by Craig H at 15:54, 2007-05-02

im with ian on this penny is as far as im concerned the premier site,im a bit of a moocher and stay away from the hides if possible there are many great unwatched areas of penny,and realy its been made much easier to walk round than ever before.we used to have to make our way through the old pennington tip,fight our way behind sorrocow farm because the footpath thats through it now used to be blocked by a pack of dogs,wagons anf the fella who lived at the farm who wouldnt let you through.then you take your life in your hands on the main road,until we came to the slag heaps,which used to be so muddyit was likewalking with lead boots on.there was no hides and we had to share the point with a constant line of fishermen.but we definately saw more birds than there is there now,just ask charlie owen or dave wilson,or ian even they will tell ya what the flash was like.and we loved every minuite we were there.also i think a factor in the birds not being seen is the lack of youth in birding,there used to be a group of us in the 70s-80s of about 8 who were always somewere on the flash not the area between the golf house to horrocks hide but we could be anywere between pennington park and lightshaw,and everywere in between.

in for penney,s worth,i don,t normally go to pennington cos of logistical thingys' but when i,ve been have always stuck to the hides picking up the odd good un and a very nice place it is to, quite a few of my meagre county list are
accredited to it,i,ve also made the pilgrimage over to audenshaw to tick the northen diver, of the two site,s i would
pick pennington as the nicer, but audenshaw for the hard core birding experince(and a life tick) is a must if you havn,t already.but following ian,s bit on pennington and the number of birders watching the area ,i got a txt about
the terns and called in to pennington tonight but only had bin,s with me but was confident if they were still there
i could 'cop a quick gander' through a scope off another birder,i was dissapionted to find the hides empty,terns seen but not i. d,back in the morning with scope.

cheers geoff

Very much agree with you Ian on all counts. It speaks volumes for Pennington though, because he`s now insisting that it falls within the boundry of the Metropolitan Borough of Bolton ! ?

I have it on good authority ( Phil Rhodes ) that Rumworth Lodge is THE `premier` site in G.M. - if not the whole of England ! ! !

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Ian,

Phil has a fortunately very rare mental illness know as 'Rumworthitis' which has come about from his over-riding long term illness of 'Boltonlistingenia'. Unfortunately both are incurable and lead to inexplicable bouts of droning on about how great Rumworth is and how Bolton is the only recording area worth bothering with in the entire solar system, on the plus side of course he's a bloody nice chap and more than occasionally almost proves his theory with some very nice finds but really, Rumworth best site in the county? Rumworthitis at it's most deadly.........

(please note I've moved this thread to the discussions page as it could well run and run )

This could well be a contentious issue but I couldn't resist having my say too

Craig is of course right, but I think the problem is considerably larger than we might think. In the late 70's through the 80's to the early 90's Pennington had several very dedicated and experienced patch workers, through Frank Horrocks, Dave Wilson, the 'moochers' (Paddy, John, Paul), meself through to Paul Robinson to name but afew, the whole area was covered regularly and thoroughly turning up some remarkable birds. It is worth remembering these birders had an intimate knowledge of the area formed from basically growing up birding there, they covered the area methodically and very regulalry, of recent years Pennington has lost much of it's regular watchers with more 'passing trade' and although John Lyons and the very capable Barry Hulme do their best, the south side of the flash is vertually unwatched and was often one of the best spots 'back in the day', also later on in the afternoon/evening there can be almost no coverage, and I've often found that plenty of good stuff turns up in the evening! Audenshaw on the otherhand has a very dedicated and motivated bunch of capable birders who cover the site very regularly and lets face it there's not much 'bush bashing', 'grasslands thrashing' or 'tree peering' necessary when birding Audy!

Now the contentious bit I still believe Pennington is THE premier birding site in the county, no problem. Audenshaw may (but I wouldn't be too sure) have the larger list but it has lost much of it's habitat and recording area which brought many of those birds in, plus I doubt it has an annual bird list to match Pennington although I'll be happy to be proven wrong More importantly, although there is no doubt Audy produces a good proportion of the rare and scarce bird records in the county, there is no site in the county which can match Pennington for the number of available species on any visit the year round, variety of habitat, views of birds, viewing access (lets face it Bunting Hide in winter is great), disabled access, parking and chances of obtaining an ice cream Yes, it can be absolutely packed at weekends (and not with birders) and covering the whole area can take around 4 hours but one only has to look at the list of past rare birds there alone to see it's full potential.

The only thing I would say about Pennington, which may or may not have some bearing on the issue is that birders seem more content to sit in hides nowadays. Perhaps we miss more flying overhead? Perhaps we feel less inclined to walk around when we can get fantastic views of birds from the many various hides? Perhaps it has no bearing at all but ask yourself if you know where Sorrowcow Farm pond is (site of the 70's Great Reed Warbler), have you ever checked the shore in front of the yacht club for waders or the trees around Mosely Hall that used to hold so many decent birds, how often do you 'bash the bushes' around the Plank Lane car park (where many migrants go unnoticed and where once held afew Arctic Redpolls) or give the Plank Lane end of the flash a 'good coat of looking at' other than distantly from Horrock's hide (the area where the brook flows in, often attracting ducks to feed here and forming a sand bank which attracts waders)?

If only we could cover Pennington like those hardy buggers at Audenshaw cover there, I think we'd see a marked difference

hi craig-don't know whether you know me or not,but the flash was my second home for almost 20 years between 1976-1996,so with that sort of history behind me,it just doasn't seem to get the waders etc it used to,maybe its global warming or something,or maybe like you say it could just be like yourself due to work etc,and living out of county,i only get to the flash now about once or twice a week.i know that if its possible to do the flash properly daily.you will turn plenty of birds up.thats been proved today with black tern,osprey,maybe im not as lucky as i used to be but the flash when i have been recently,has been quiet for the time of year.in any numbers this year i can only remember redshank,oystercatcher,a few b t godwits.i would normally 20 years ago to have expected a dozen dunlin,3 or 4 turnstone,ruff,greenshank,the odd rarity,spotted redshank,stint,curlew sands,plenty of ringed plover etc or i may be wrong

Judith,

I have it on good authority ( Phil Rhodes ) that Rumworth Lodge is THE `premier` site in G.M. - if not the whole of England ! ! !

I think things are still happening John.

The wader passage is certainly still happening, but it does seem to be a bit earlier. The little flocks you refer to semed to happen a couple or three weeks ago. I've been there a few evenings recently and there has generally been something to keep me occupied. There hasn't really been anything really good (at the species level) since the Canvasback/whiskered Tern year of 2002, but certainly as good as ever I'd say for migrants/passage/sub rarities.

I personally suspect that given the size of the place a lot goes unseen. If you count the number of regular birders I would guess there are no more than 6-8. Barry and John are there virtually every day (am for Barry) but not many other people seem to get there anywhere near as often (myself included unfortunately), and some of these dont venture much away from the usuall hide circuit. Certainly in the evenings I dont see many 'local' birders.

There are probably also things that get seen but not reported if they are not 'rare'. Not many birders count things any more it seems, so small flocks of waders may well go unrecorded.

Certainly if you want to see a good range of species at one site its as good as ever/anywhere.

Just my thoughts.

the things that seem to be missing these days are the flocks of small waders,there used to always be a dozen or so dunlin,a few turnstone,etc at this time of year.

Not a lot, John. The male Garganey (or a new bird?) was there today, hopefully it is the one seen until last Wednesday and has a female on eggs somewhere! Otherwise, it's "as you were" with perhaps more Little Ringed Plovers (some refugees from Astley Moss East Peat Pools where a road has been constructed through the pools!!!) I think birders in the east would dispute whether Pennington Flash was ever the premier site in the county - Audenshaw Resrs probably has a bigger list.

hi just wondered if theres been much at the flash,reports seem to be a bit scarce from our premier site?the flas doasn't seem to be quite as good these days,for passage birds or is it just me,with my late 70s early 80s rose tinted glasses on.