thanks henry,so it,s that easy58 degree or 85 degree i think i,ll just leave it at cormorant for now,will split hair,s if i ever catch up to county lister,s cheers geoff 

Apparently, it is all to do with a 'gular patch angle', although generally hard to see in the field.
Here's an article I found on the subject - http://www.paxton-pits.org.uk/cormorant/id/
Thanks
Henerz

can some one help me out i,ve looked in the collin,s and my big RSPB book and the picture of the continental in the gallery,and at quite a few on horrocks flash ,is the trick the red patch below the eye and the greying of head the difference between british and senisis

thanks geoff