Thanks for the insights Doc and Ian. Will be interesting if/when someone manages to get a feather for analysis.
Ian McKerchar said
Thu Jul 23 5:24 PM, 2020
Relevant excerpt from Flight Identification of European Raptors by Forsman attached, though I note even he uses the ‘presumed’ caveat when attempting to age birds.
I've read that an expert at the organisation @4Vultures has been quoted by a coleague called Hans as saying that in his opinion the bird is a first-summer female. Questions were then asked as to which plumage feature allowed this ID and the answer was that he made this pronouncement on the jizz of the bird. The attributed quote by Hans is:
"My colleague at @4Vultures tells me this is a female bird! Opinion based on years of handling #beardedvulture in the hand"
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Thursday 23rd of July 2020 04:02:18 PM
Sean Molloy said
Thu Jul 23 12:13 PM, 2020
Noticed today on BirdGuides theyve started to refer to it as female 1st summer - anyone know how and when it was sexed? Ive only noticed this today and would be interested in knowing how they came to this conclusion.
Doc Brewster said
Wed Jul 22 1:24 PM, 2020
We'll have to see what decision they make on this particular individual, they have in the past changed policy in time and may do again on that previously published paper. I know many birders will be waiting to see the decision on this bird which so far has only had lay speculation and not a BOURC decision
Rob Creek said
Wed Jul 22 11:53 AM, 2020
Cheers Doc. This thing is gathering pace, more and more people are adding various comments to a few threads Im watching on Twitter.
A page exert has appeared from a Lammergeier report in British Birds January 2019 stating that wild born individuals from the Alpine population would be eligible for Cat-C if it was proven the population is self-sustaining, which the VCF and their extensive project work have proven in 2006.
The same exert also states that they could potentially be placed in Cat-C5 defined as from an established naturalised population abroad which this bird clearly is. It then goes on to say only a bird from the Pyrenean or Eastern populations could be placed in Cat-A but as Hans Pohlmann (VCF) has previously stated ... there is no way of telling an Alpine or Pyrenean bird apart just by looking, and wide range dispersal has been proven from the Pyrenean population now too, so hes basically saying theres no reason why it couldnt be a Pyrenean bird, the evidence is there.
The general feeling now resulting from this is that the BOURC have made some judgmental errors on this one. The comment below was a sum-up reply to that paper.
It appears they have made 3 extreme assumptions with no actual evidence: (1) They assume Alps birds. (2) They assume a first generation offspring. (3) They assume the Alps population is not self sustaining when your paper says self sustaining since 2006.
They need to look again.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Wednesday 22nd of July 2020 11:54:41 AM
I havent been to see the bird in life but it looks most impressive in flight from photos Ive seen, (get that evil eye!) and seems to be rather ragged with flight and central tail feathers missing- so it may be in (partial) moult presently?
It isnt in a very safe area though and I hope that it doesnt get targeted by the guardians of our heather moorland.
(The mischievous side of me would be quite amused to dream of it dropping a gamekeeper from a great height).
Regards,
Mike P.
Doc Brewster said
Wed Jul 22 10:43 AM, 2020
BOU haven't assessed this current bird yet, so not categorised.... yet. The pager is forecasting Category E.
BUT - As Rob says articles are out there about the population being self-sustaining, and that White-tailed Eagles in Scotland were admitted to the 'tickable' British List with a smaller number of breeding pairs. Lots of birders and high listers are travelling long distances to see this bird and who knows what the outcome will be? When I was there a reasonable sized crowd to a man and woman allsaid that they would be adding it to their lists, including me!! OK, some folk there may not have expressed an opinion and thought differently I concede.
My argument always has been that birding is our hobby, a pastime, fun!! We can tick what we like, and enjoy it. After all who can't enjoy watching a Lammergeier in the UK, and for me not far from my place of birth, Sheffield! Many folk come into Focalpoint and ask what they can tick and I always answer "whatever you like". Unless your listing is competitive against others then I don'e see any problem, and definitely no harm in this.
I agree totally with Rob's last comment, wholeheartedly
Ian McKerchar said
Wed Jul 22 7:05 AM, 2020
Originally posted today by Rob Creek:
Of interest for all forum members...I hope youre ok with this bit of info on this thread Ian.
Regarding the Lammergeier currently in Derbyshire (or Bearded Vulture for those that still believe they fly away with Lambs and children) that unfortunately is sitting in Cat-E in the UK...
An RBA online article says Hans Pohlmann, Vice President of VCF has stated the Alpine population has been self-sustaining since 2006...and that the vast amount of data evidence showing gene flow, juvenile dispersal, linking of meta populations, etc means that the ENTIRE European to North Africa population is self-sustaining.
Ive said it before and Ill say it again, and to echo Johns thoughts too, Category-E my backside! One of the best birds this country has ever seen in my view.
Rob Creek said
Fri Jun 26 11:01 PM, 2020
Was seen in Derbyshire this afternoon Rob
Rob Thorpe said
Fri Jun 26 9:58 PM, 2020
Same bird seen near Coventry today, having also been seen in Belgium last week!
colin moran said
Tue Jun 2 3:24 PM, 2020
lammergeier in channel islands,are they coming for our bones already ?
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Wednesday 10th of February 2021 07:56:10 PM
Relevant excerpt from Flight Identification of European Raptors by Forsman attached, though I note even he uses the ‘presumed’ caveat when attempting to age birds.
I've read that an expert at the organisation @4Vultures has been quoted by a coleague called Hans as saying that in his opinion the bird is a first-summer female. Questions were then asked as to which plumage feature allowed this ID and the answer was that he made this pronouncement on the jizz of the bird. The attributed quote by Hans is:
"My colleague at @4Vultures tells me this is a female bird! Opinion based on years of handling #beardedvulture in the hand"
-- Edited by Doc Brewster on Thursday 23rd of July 2020 04:02:18 PM
We'll have to see what decision they make on this particular individual, they have in the past changed policy in time and may do again on that previously published paper. I know many birders will be waiting to see the decision on this bird which so far has only had lay speculation and not a BOURC decision
This thing is gathering pace, more and more people are adding various comments to a few threads Im watching on Twitter.
A page exert has appeared from a Lammergeier report in British Birds January 2019 stating that wild born individuals from the Alpine population would be eligible for Cat-C if it was proven the population is self-sustaining, which the VCF and their extensive project work have proven in 2006.
The same exert also states that they could potentially be placed in Cat-C5 defined as from an established naturalised population abroad which this bird clearly is.
It then goes on to say only a bird from the Pyrenean or Eastern populations could be placed in Cat-A but as Hans Pohlmann (VCF) has previously stated ... there is no way of telling an Alpine or Pyrenean bird apart just by looking, and wide range dispersal has been proven from the Pyrenean population now too, so hes basically saying theres no reason why it couldnt be a Pyrenean bird, the evidence is there.
The general feeling now resulting from this is that the BOURC have made some judgmental errors on this one. The comment below was a sum-up reply to that paper.
It appears they have made 3 extreme assumptions with no actual evidence:
(1) They assume Alps birds.
(2) They assume a first generation offspring.
(3) They assume the Alps population is not self sustaining when your paper says self sustaining since 2006.
They need to look again.
-- Edited by Rob Creek on Wednesday 22nd of July 2020 11:54:41 AM
I havent been to see the bird in life but it looks most impressive in flight from photos Ive seen, (get that evil eye!) and seems to be rather ragged with flight and central tail feathers missing- so it may be in (partial) moult presently?
It isnt in a very safe area though and I hope that it doesnt get targeted by the guardians of our heather moorland.
(The mischievous side of me would be quite amused to dream of it dropping a gamekeeper from a great height).
Regards,
Mike P.
BOU haven't assessed this current bird yet, so not categorised.... yet. The pager is forecasting Category E.
BUT - As Rob says articles are out there about the population being self-sustaining, and that White-tailed Eagles in Scotland were admitted to the 'tickable' British List with a smaller number of breeding pairs. Lots of birders and high listers are travelling long distances to see this bird and who knows what the outcome will be? When I was there a reasonable sized crowd to a man and woman all said that they would be adding it to their lists, including me!! OK, some folk there may not have expressed an opinion and thought differently I concede.
My argument always has been that birding is our hobby, a pastime, fun!! We can tick what we like, and enjoy it. After all who can't enjoy watching a Lammergeier in the UK, and for me not far from my place of birth, Sheffield! Many folk come into Focalpoint and ask what they can tick and I always answer "whatever you like". Unless your listing is competitive against others then I don'e see any problem, and definitely no harm in this.
I agree totally with Rob's last comment, wholeheartedly
Originally posted today by Rob Creek:
Of interest for all forum members...I hope youre ok with this bit of info on this thread Ian.
Regarding the Lammergeier currently in Derbyshire (or Bearded Vulture for those that still believe they fly away with Lambs and children) that unfortunately is sitting in Cat-E in the UK...
An RBA online article says Hans Pohlmann, Vice President of VCF has stated the Alpine population has been self-sustaining since 2006...and that the vast amount of data evidence showing gene flow, juvenile dispersal, linking of meta populations, etc means that the ENTIRE European to North Africa population is self-sustaining.
Ive said it before and Ill say it again, and to echo Johns thoughts too, Category-E my backside!
One of the best birds this country has ever seen in my view.
lammergeier in channel islands,are they coming for our bones already ?
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Wednesday 10th of February 2021 07:56:10 PM