Not wishing to cast aspertions on the local kids, but the burning of the moss has been happenning at this time every year for a very long time (must be some sort of tradition that they pass down).
The fires are definately started deliberately as apart from the current one major burnt area, there are also many smaller burnt areas - many of them destroying the already few remaining gorse bushes that used to be there.
Also, the kids use the wooded area as a BMX track and regularly dig out large holes to create jumps and obstacles. The chopping of the trees has been done to create firewood as these scroats are down there most evenings making fires and littering the place with their lager cans, etc.
I had already heard that the ownership of this area was being looked at and I can only hope that it is resolved in the near future and the area can get proper management because valuable habitat is being destroyed daily.
proper Management doasn't stop these issues,pennys main reedbed top of rammies was burned the other week,and drinking goas on even on a well wardened area like that,So basically its just a modern day issue everywere.
Nick Isherwood said
Wed Apr 7 10:12 AM, 2010
Not wishing to cast aspertions on the local kids, but the burning of the moss has been happenning at this time every year for a very long time (must be some sort of tradition that they pass down).
The fires are definately started deliberately as apart from the current one major burnt area, there are also many smaller burnt areas - many of them destroying the already few remaining gorse bushes that used to be there.
Also, the kids use the wooded area as a BMX track and regularly dig out large holes to create jumps and obstacles. The chopping of the trees has been done to create firewood as these scroats are down there most evenings making fires and littering the place with their lager cans, etc.
I had already heard that the ownership of this area was being looked at and I can only hope that it is resolved in the near future and the area can get proper management because valuable habitat is being destroyed daily.
Mark Rigby said
Wed Apr 7 9:49 AM, 2010
Ian McKerchar wrote:
There is a train track nearby! Then obviously those fires where probably caused by sparks from a passing locomotive (sorry, an old occupational joke I'm afraid ).
I didn't know you were that old Ian. Steam trains became obsolete in 1968!
Ian McKerchar said
Tue Apr 6 11:25 PM, 2010
You see. Just like in Scooby Doo, we always blame those pesky kids!
Rob Thorpe said
Tue Apr 6 11:08 PM, 2010
I saw it last month, when it was still smoking. I thought it might be habitat management...
Ian McKerchar said
Tue Apr 6 11:06 PM, 2010
There is a train track nearby! Then obviously those fires where probably caused by sparks from a passing locomotive (sorry, an old occupational joke I'm afraid ).
Ian McKerchar said
Tue Apr 6 9:00 PM, 2010
Nick Isherwood wrote:
Quick mooch on the moss today at 4.00pm.
Usual stuff present as well as a single Wheatear in the adjacent field and a single Swallow passing overhead.
It was also sad to note that not only have the local hooligans took to torching the moss again but they are also now chopping down a lot of the trees in the small copse near the railway line. There are stumps of sawn down trees everywhere and a lot of them are quite sizeable trees too. I had heard that Highfield Moss was a SSSI but by the time the local idiots have finished having their way there won't be anything of interest down there. As the area isn't managed (or owned it would seem) then it looks like this maybe something that just won't go away.
Nick, did you see kids chopping the trees down? Seems unusual for them to be cutting lots of them down with saw doesn't it? Also, a fair proportion of fires such as these are started by adults either carelessly disgarding smoking materials or with 'other issues' in those areas. That said of course, more often than not it's the local scroats!
Judith Smith said
Tue Apr 6 8:46 PM, 2010
No use reporting it to Natural England - they never reply to emails. You could try the Wigan ecologist Roz Smallshaw 01942 404232
Nick Isherwood said
Tue Apr 6 8:37 PM, 2010
Quick mooch on the moss today at 4.00pm.
Usual stuff present as well as a single Wheatear in the adjacent field and a single Swallow passing overhead.
It was also sad to note that not only have the local hooligans took to torching the moss again but they are also now chopping down a lot of the trees in the small copse near the railway line. There are stumps of sawn down trees everywhere and a lot of them are quite sizeable trees too. I had heard that Highfield Moss was a SSSI but by the time the local idiots have finished having their way there won't be anything of interest down there. As the area isn't managed (or owned it would seem) then it looks like this maybe something that just won't go away.
Nick Isherwood said
Mon Mar 15 4:29 PM, 2010
Geoff Hargreaves wrote:
First visit to this site and i,m quite impressed ,I went with a vague hope of a merlin but was very pleased to find yellowhammer,reed bunting,linnet very easy to locate,nice to see these birds alongside the worlds first railway line(too much discovery channel).
kestrel,buzzard,lapwing,crow,jackdaw,grey partridge, mallard and a wind that cut to the quick
cheers geoff
Whenever I see Merlin down there its usually in the surrounding fields. You should have a wander down there at dusk time as the short eared owls are around at this time of year.
Geoff Hargreaves said
Sun Mar 14 3:49 PM, 2010
First visit to this site and i,m quite impressed ,I went with a vague hope of a merlin but was very pleased to find yellowhammer,reed bunting,linnet very easy to locate,nice to see these birds alongside the worlds first railway line(too much discovery channel).
kestrel,buzzard,lapwing,crow,jackdaw,grey partridge, mallard and a wind that cut to the quick
Seems to be a lack of Yellowhammer down there at the moment. Maybe they're all over at Waterworks lane.
Pete Astles said
Fri Feb 5 5:07 PM, 2010
1.30 to 3.30pm
5 Corn Buntings (Hurrah!) 4 Grey Partridge 2 Snipe 2 Pheasant 4 Buzzard (Probably repeat sightings of same bird) 1 Male Kestrel 1 Grey Heron
Sad sight on way back young Rabbit on path totally blind and moving at a snails pace. Hope Myxomatosis is not on way back I remember seeing loads of wild Rabbits with that when I was a kid and its a rotten cruel disease.
Nick Isherwood said
Wed Feb 3 1:05 PM, 2010
This morning 9.30-11.30am.
Flock of Linnet, Starling and Fieldfare all feeding together in adjacent field. Flock of around 20 Skylark 20 Grey Partridge 2 Buzzard 1 Kestrel 1 Sparrowhawk 1 Corn Bunting Wood Pigeon Great tit Blue tit Long tailed tit Blackbird Magpie Crow Robin Chaffinch
Pete Astles said
Fri Jan 29 1:23 PM, 2010
Morning 2 hours
Not much activity bird wise but more than compensated by a great sunny morning to be out and about.
2 Buzzard possibly same bird but second time being mobbed by 2 carrion crows protecting nesting area 1 Kestrel 2 Grey Partridge 1 Skylark 2 Reed Bunting Large flock of fieldfare 70 plus Loads of wood pigeon including two very large flocks 50 plus.
Henry Cook said
Tue Jan 26 9:01 PM, 2010
Finishing off the last of the rare flowers no doubt!
dave broome said
Tue Jan 26 6:34 PM, 2010
1 Corn Bunting today, 16 Pink-Footed Geese circling the area before heading NW, 2 Kestrel, Buzzard, 15 Fieldfare and 15 students around the pool with surveying poles
Rob Thorpe said
Sun Jan 24 5:06 PM, 2010
Sunday 24 January 2010 14:00-16:30 with Mr Woosey
c100 Pink-footed Goose (over E, then came back W drifting SW) 3 Buzzard 2 Kestrel 10 Grey Partridge 16 Golden Plover (over NE) 2 Jay 2 Skylark 6 Greenfinch 2 Linnet 3+ Yellowhammer 16 Corn Bunting
-- Edited by Rob Thorpe on Sunday 24th of January 2010 05:14:05 PM
-- Edited by Rob Thorpe on Sunday 24th of January 2010 05:53:45 PM
JOHN TYMON said
Sat Jan 16 5:13 PM, 2010
mike haylett wrote:
hi john, where exactly is highfield moss. is it adjacent to moss ind. estate, regards mike
its the area between parkside road and winwick lane near lowton.adjacent to newton road,best to go to ordnance survey and go through the get a map and look at it on there.There are a few paths of newton road that lead onto the moss.its only a small area,and the edge of it can be seen from parkside road at one point.don't go very often myself ,just pop in now and again,on the way to or back from the flash.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Saturday 16th of January 2010 05:13:53 PM
mike haylett said
Sat Jan 16 4:57 PM, 2010
hi john, where exactly is highfield moss. is it adjacent to moss ind. estate, regards mike
JOHN TYMON said
Sat Jan 16 3:29 PM, 2010
male merlin-chasing a small flock of linnets,on the way back from the flash also 1 buzzard 8 grey partridge
Nick Isherwood said
Wed Jan 6 3:41 PM, 2010
This morning 10.00am - 11.30am.
4 Buzzard 1 Kestrel 2 Sparrowhawk 1 Peregrine - perched on nearby pylon. 1 Stonechat 25 Pink feet flying over heading north. Possible Jack Snipe - It came up quite close but didn't get a good look at it. Had the flight of a snipe but much smaller. Blackbird Blue tit Great tit Yellowhammer Reed Bunting etc.
4 Wheatear (3m, 1f) 1 Curlew 1 Sparrowhawk being chased by a swallow. 1 Merlin 8 Buzzard 20 Jay Lots of Linnet, Lapwing Quite a few Willow Warbler heard Plus all the other usual stuff
Nick Isherwood said
Sat Apr 4 1:51 PM, 2009
On the moss this morning between 11.00am and 12.30pm.
Stock Dove (4) Wheatear (1) Brambling (1) (flocked with Chaffinches) Linnet (lots) Meadow Pipit (4) Sand Martin (3) in passage Sparrowhawk (1) Kestrel (1)
Plus all the other usual birds down there.
Nick Isherwood said
Mon Mar 16 1:36 PM, 2009
Male Wheatear on the Highfield Farm field adjacent to Highfield Moss this morning at 11.20am.
Also 4 Stock Dove.
Nick Isherwood said
Tue Feb 24 8:23 PM, 2009
Went out onto Highfield Moss late this afternoon with the dog for a walk as I hadn't been down there for about two weeks or so. Absolutely gutted when I saw the moss though as around 40% of the area to the west of the railway line has been scorched by fire.
Much of the dead ferns and grass has been burnt along with quite a lot of the gorse near to the railway. This has resulted in a massive loss of habitat for the wildlife down there along with damage to the hunting grounds of the short eared owls which are sometimes present.
I know spring is round the corner so hopefully this ground can rejuvinate itself quickly.
I hope the idiots who set this fire are proud of themselves.
Judith Smith said
Mon Feb 23 10:29 PM, 2009
5 Buzzards in this area today, including 3 together, when I did one of my TTVs today. 6 Siskins in Golborne as well.
Nick Isherwood said
Fri Dec 5 5:27 PM, 2008
On the moss this evening (3.30 - 4.30). Sightings as follows: -
Crow - Huge flock of around 150 Starling - Flock of around 150 very near to the flock of crows Fieldfare - 12 Reed Bunting - 3 Buzzard - 1 Kestrel - 1 Sparrowhawk (male) - 1 Grey Partridge - many in various little clusters Chaffinch - 15 Yellowhammer - small flocks of around 15 Pheasant - 3 Blackbird - 8 Long tailed tit - 5 Jay - 2
Cheers
Nick
Nick Isherwood said
Wed Dec 3 7:31 PM, 2008
Hi Phil,
I think I may have seen you in the distance. There were one or two people knocking around. I actually had my dog with me and there was another guy with a dog and a whistle.
The SE Owl can be a bit hit and miss. Sometimes I've seen it on virtually every occasion I've been down there and at other times I can go months without seeing it - such is the joy of bird watching eh?? On the odd occasion though there has been two of them hunting together - awesome sight!!
Did you manage to see any of the snipe and jack snipe? They usually come up as you walk across the top of the embankment.
Nick.
Phil_Oldham said
Wed Dec 3 7:14 PM, 2008
Nick, I may have seen you! I was there at dusk myself...the one without the dog :)
Only managed to see the 1 buzzard...and briefly, it was chased away by 2 kestrels, amongst the other smaller things listed!
No sign of the short eared owl, which was my reason for going :(
None the less, seems like an impressive little place!
Nick Isherwood said
Wed Dec 3 7:00 PM, 2008
Had another little excursion onto the moss at dusk tonight.
Sightings as follows: -
Blackbird - lots Chaffinch - flock of around ten Buzzard - 2 Goldcrest - 3 Jack Snipe - 1 but several were heard calling from the long grass Fieldfare - 12 Pink footed Goose - large flock of around 150 circling before landing in adjacent field (I've got a feeling some of these could be on someones table on Christmas day as I heard several shotgun blasts from that direction).
Cheers
Nick
Nick Isherwood said
Mon Dec 1 1:07 PM, 2008
Hi,
Thanks for the correction on Highfields location. I wasn't sure whether it was in Greater Manchester or not. I'll make sure I post in the correct place from now on.
You're right about it being under watched as I've never met any other bird watchers down there in the 18 months I've been visiting the place.
It is a great little haven for bird life though with quite a bit of habitat too. I've managed to record almost 60 species down there with the highlights being the S.E. Owl and a hobby during the summer.
Cheers
Nick
Rob Thorpe said
Sun Nov 30 8:31 PM, 2008
Sunday 30 November 2008
15:00ish-16:30
Short-eared Owl from 16:00 hunting the rough patch north of the railway first, then over the moss. Fantastic views!
4 Corn Bunting, rather embarrassingly needed for my county list, annoyingly they were initially outside the county but one landed on a tree which is (according to Google Earth) 4metres within Greater Manchester. Also lots of Linnets and a few Yellowhammer. Quite a few Grey Partridge about, a Buzzard and a Kestrel. 2+ Stonechat on the gorse and fences along either side of the railway. 5 Golden Plover over. c500 Pink-feet in field to the south, possibly just out of county, they flew west at 16:30. My first visit here, looks like a good spot!
JOHN TYMON said
Sat Nov 29 7:04 PM, 2008
welcome nick-a good record that of the jack snipe,it is a much underwatched area and could eisily turn up some good birds,as you've shown in the post-keep posting
Judith Smith said
Sat Nov 29 4:29 PM, 2008
Hi Nick - Highfield Moss is in Greater Manchester (just) and has (or used to have) a great show of gentians in August, for which is was designated a SSSI. So, welcome to the site and post onto County sightings in future. It's a site which has had some good birds in the past and is underwatched.
Judith Smith (county recorder)
Nick Isherwood said
Fri Nov 28 5:36 PM, 2008
Hi All,
I'm a new member, been checking out the forum for a while now and thought it was about time I started to contribute.
Just been down to Highfield Moss (between Lowton and Newton) for a walk at dusk (3.30pm - 5.00pm). Sightings as follows: -
Blackbird - many Wren - many Yellowhammer - 10 Crow - many S.E. Owl - quartering over the moss for prey Jack Snipe - approx 8-10 disturbed from the boggy ground Snipe - approx 12 Pink Footed Geese - several sizeable flocks landing in neighbouring field
Many thanks
Nick
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Sunday 1st of November 2009 03:24:24 PM
proper Management doasn't stop these issues,pennys main reedbed top of rammies was burned the other week,and drinking goas on even on a well wardened area like that,So basically its just a modern day issue everywere.
The fires are definately started deliberately as apart from the current one major burnt area, there are also many smaller burnt areas - many of them destroying the already few remaining gorse bushes that used to be there.
Also, the kids use the wooded area as a BMX track and regularly dig out large holes to create jumps and obstacles. The chopping of the trees has been done to create firewood as these scroats are down there most evenings making fires and littering the place with their lager cans, etc.
I had already heard that the ownership of this area was being looked at and I can only hope that it is resolved in the near future and the area can get proper management because valuable habitat is being destroyed daily.
I didn't know you were that old Ian. Steam trains became obsolete in 1968!
Nick, did you see kids chopping the trees down? Seems unusual for them to be cutting lots of them down with saw doesn't it? Also, a fair proportion of fires such as these are started by adults either carelessly disgarding smoking materials or with 'other issues' in those areas. That said of course, more often than not it's the local scroats!
Usual stuff present as well as a single Wheatear in the adjacent field and a single Swallow passing overhead.
It was also sad to note that not only have the local hooligans took to torching the moss again but they are also now chopping down a lot of the trees in the small copse near the railway line. There are stumps of sawn down trees everywhere and a lot of them are quite sizeable trees too. I had heard that Highfield Moss was a SSSI but by the time the local idiots have finished having their way there won't be anything of interest down there. As the area isn't managed (or owned it would seem) then it looks like this maybe something that just won't go away.
Whenever I see Merlin down there its usually in the surrounding fields. You should have a wander down there at dusk time as the short eared owls are around at this time of year.
kestrel,buzzard,lapwing,crow,jackdaw,grey partridge, mallard and a wind that cut to the quick
cheers geoff
Lapwing
Skylark
Crow
Wood Pigeon
Curlew
Kestrel
Buzzard
Great Tit
Blue Tit
LT Tit
Linnet
Grey Partridge
Blackbird
Magpie
Meadow Pipit
Seems to be a lack of Yellowhammer down there at the moment. Maybe they're all over at Waterworks lane.
5 Corn Buntings (Hurrah!)
4 Grey Partridge
2 Snipe
2 Pheasant
4 Buzzard (Probably repeat sightings of same bird)
1 Male Kestrel
1 Grey Heron
Sad sight on way back young Rabbit on path totally blind and moving at a snails pace. Hope Myxomatosis is not on way back I remember seeing loads of wild Rabbits with that when I was a kid and its a rotten cruel disease.
Flock of Linnet, Starling and Fieldfare all feeding together in adjacent field.
Flock of around 20 Skylark
20 Grey Partridge
2 Buzzard
1 Kestrel
1 Sparrowhawk
1 Corn Bunting
Wood Pigeon
Great tit
Blue tit
Long tailed tit
Blackbird
Magpie
Crow
Robin
Chaffinch
Not much activity bird wise but more than compensated by a great sunny morning to be out and about.
2 Buzzard possibly same bird but second time being mobbed by 2 carrion crows protecting nesting area
1 Kestrel
2 Grey Partridge
1 Skylark
2 Reed Bunting
Large flock of fieldfare 70 plus
Loads of wood pigeon including two very large flocks 50 plus.
14:00-16:30 with Mr Woosey
c100 Pink-footed Goose (over E, then came
back W drifting SW)
3 Buzzard
2 Kestrel
10 Grey Partridge
16 Golden Plover (over NE)
2 Jay
2 Skylark
6 Greenfinch
2 Linnet
3+ Yellowhammer
16 Corn Bunting
-- Edited by Rob Thorpe on Sunday 24th of January 2010 05:14:05 PM
-- Edited by Rob Thorpe on Sunday 24th of January 2010 05:53:45 PM
its the area between parkside road and winwick lane near lowton.adjacent to newton road,best to go to ordnance survey and go through the get a map and look at it on there.There are a few paths of newton road that lead onto the moss.its only a small area,and the edge of it can be seen from parkside road at one point.don't go very often myself ,just pop in now and again,on the way to or back from the flash.
-- Edited by JOHN TYMON on Saturday 16th of January 2010 05:13:53 PM
also 1 buzzard
8 grey partridge
4 Buzzard
1 Kestrel
2 Sparrowhawk
1 Peregrine - perched on nearby pylon.
1 Stonechat
25 Pink feet flying over heading north.
Possible Jack Snipe - It came up quite close but didn't get a good look at it. Had the flight of a snipe but much smaller.
Blackbird
Blue tit
Great tit
Yellowhammer
Reed Bunting
etc.
3 Buzzard
9 Grey Partridge
3 Yellowhammer
7 Snipe over
10 Lapwing
5 Skylark
3 Kestrel
3 Stock Dove
2 Bullfinch
23 Fieldfare
c400 Wood Pigeon
Barn Owl present again this evening.
15:30-16:30:
2 Buzzard
3 Kestrel
1 Peregrine nearly took a Woodpigeon from a roosting flock
1 Barn Owl
2 Snipe
5+ Yellowhammer
1 Peregrine
5 Buzzard
21 Grey Partridge (in three seperate coveys)
3 Kestrel
1 Willow Tit
18 Skylark
11 Stock Dove
8 Meadow Pipit
3 Great Spotted Woodpeckers near the feeders at Highfield Farm
1 Reed Bunting
6 Mistle Thrush
30 species seen in total.
Sightings with Mr Meadows & Mr Thorpe:
1 Golden Plover over >W
8 Buzzard
7 Grey Partridge
6+ Yellowhammer
2 Kestrel
2 Skylark
1 Reed Bunting
2 Great Spotted Woodpecker
Three skeins of Pink-footed Geese over (each of c60-70), heading mainly East @ 16:30
1 Corn Bunting
2 Reed Buntings
4 Yellowhammers
3 Linnets
4 Meadow Pipits
1 Pheasant
1 Kestrel
2 Mallards
200+ Swallows
4 Swifts
2 Buzzard
1 Sparrowhawk
2 Kestrel
16 Redpoll
1 Raven
1 Woodcock
2 Wheatear (1m, 1f)
Plus all the usual stuff.
4 Wheatear (3m, 1f)
1 Curlew
1 Sparrowhawk being chased by a swallow.
1 Merlin
8 Buzzard
20 Jay
Lots of Linnet, Lapwing
Quite a few Willow Warbler heard
Plus all the other usual stuff
Stock Dove (4)
Wheatear (1)
Brambling (1) (flocked with Chaffinches)
Linnet (lots)
Meadow Pipit (4)
Sand Martin (3) in passage
Sparrowhawk (1)
Kestrel (1)
Plus all the other usual birds down there.
Also 4 Stock Dove.
Much of the dead ferns and grass has been burnt along with quite a lot of the gorse near to the railway. This has resulted in a massive loss of habitat for the wildlife down there along with damage to the hunting grounds of the short eared owls which are sometimes present.
I know spring is round the corner so hopefully this ground can rejuvinate itself quickly.
I hope the idiots who set this fire are proud of themselves.
6 Siskins in Golborne as well.
Crow - Huge flock of around 150
Starling - Flock of around 150 very near to the flock of crows
Fieldfare - 12
Reed Bunting - 3
Buzzard - 1
Kestrel - 1
Sparrowhawk (male) - 1
Grey Partridge - many in various little clusters
Chaffinch - 15
Yellowhammer - small flocks of around 15
Pheasant - 3
Blackbird - 8
Long tailed tit - 5
Jay - 2
Cheers
Nick
I think I may have seen you in the distance. There were one or two people knocking around. I actually had my dog with me and there was another guy with a dog and a whistle.
The SE Owl can be a bit hit and miss. Sometimes I've seen it on virtually every occasion I've been down there and at other times I can go months without seeing it - such is the joy of bird watching eh?? On the odd occasion though there has been two of them hunting together - awesome sight!!
Did you manage to see any of the snipe and jack snipe? They usually come up as you walk across the top of the embankment.
Nick.
Only managed to see the 1 buzzard...and briefly, it was chased away by 2 kestrels, amongst the other smaller things listed!
No sign of the short eared owl, which was my reason for going :(
None the less, seems like an impressive little place!
Sightings as follows: -
Blackbird - lots
Chaffinch - flock of around ten
Buzzard - 2
Goldcrest - 3
Jack Snipe - 1 but several were heard calling from the long grass
Fieldfare - 12
Pink footed Goose - large flock of around 150 circling before landing in adjacent field (I've got a feeling some of these could be on someones table on Christmas day as I heard several shotgun blasts from that direction).
Cheers
Nick
Thanks for the correction on Highfields location. I wasn't sure whether it was in Greater Manchester or not. I'll make sure I post in the correct place from now on.
You're right about it being under watched as I've never met any other bird watchers down there in the 18 months I've been visiting the place.
It is a great little haven for bird life though with quite a bit of habitat too. I've managed to record almost 60 species down there with the highlights being the S.E. Owl and a hobby during the summer.
Cheers
Nick
15:00ish-16:30
Short-eared Owl from 16:00 hunting the rough patch north of the railway first, then over the moss. Fantastic views!
4 Corn Bunting, rather embarrassingly needed for my county list, annoyingly they were initially outside the county but one landed on a tree which is (according to Google Earth) 4metres within Greater Manchester. Also lots of Linnets and a few Yellowhammer. Quite a few Grey Partridge about, a Buzzard and a Kestrel.
2+ Stonechat on the gorse and fences along either side of the railway.
5 Golden Plover over.
c500 Pink-feet in field to the south, possibly just out of county, they flew west at 16:30.
My first visit here, looks like a good spot!
Judith Smith (county recorder)
I'm a new member, been checking out the forum for a while now and thought it was about time I started to contribute.
Just been down to Highfield Moss (between Lowton and Newton) for a walk at dusk (3.30pm - 5.00pm). Sightings as follows: -
Blackbird - many
Wren - many
Yellowhammer - 10
Crow - many
S.E. Owl - quartering over the moss for prey
Jack Snipe - approx 8-10 disturbed from the boggy ground
Snipe - approx 12
Pink Footed Geese - several sizeable flocks landing in neighbouring field
Many thanks
Nick
-- Edited by Ian McKerchar on Sunday 1st of November 2009 03:24:24 PM